Here's how to fix the precursor complaints

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Posted by: Verteiron.8734

Verteiron.8734

The biggest problem here is the Mystic Forge. People put a great deal of money into it and get very little in return. It is a losing game and it feels like a losing game.

If Anet is convinced that a RNG is the best method for keeping Legendaries rare (and clearly they are, because the MF exists), then they need to hide the RNG aspect behind something that actually feels like an accomplishment.

The rarest of the rare weapons and armor in GW and, in fact, almost any other MMORPG you’d care to name are obtained by defeating very powerful opponents or accomplishing very difficult feats of gameplay AND being lucky. You went and killed Mallyx or Kael’Thas or Stormy Knight because you were guaranteed to make some progress toward getting some sort of reward AND you had a chance of getting something super-rare. Even if you got no reward, you at least had some fun trying. In most cases the odds of getting rare drops from these and other bosses is extremely low, AND the boss is very hard just to get to, much less defeat. But you don’t see the sort of absolutely hopelessness that I’m seeing regarding the Precursors because the RNG is hidden behind a layer of fun.

The MF is the absolute opposite of fun. The MF is the RNG in its purest form. There’s hope, repeatedly shattered. That’s it. It’s frustrating, and failures result in NOTHING, not even a sense of accomplishment. If you actually get your Precursor, any sense of achievement is completely overshadowed by the sheer relief that you don’t have to use the MF any more.

That is not how it should be.

Leave the chance of getting Legendary precursors in the MF. That’s fine, but it should an alternative method of getting it, not the sole method. The other alternative should be a difficult boss, or rare DE.

Guild Wars itself had a superior method of getting rare gear. Want a Rotwing bow? GO KILL ROTWING! I killed Rotwing dozens of times and never got a Rotwing bow, but I still had fun trying, and with the loot I got from those fights I was actually able to buy a Rotwing bow from another player. It’s still just as much of a RNG but it’s much less psychologically demoralizing than pitching expensive items down the toilet of the MF.

Incidentally, this would be a great way (and a great time!) to reintroduce named bosses back into GW2. Forget this “Champion/Veteran whatever” stuff, give us back Molotov Rocktail and the Scar Eater and Rendabi Deatheater! Get a named boss that spawns at the end of an event chain, and give him a chance of dropping a Legendary precursor!

In fact… you might even be able to get high-level players back into the low and mid-level maps this way. If you are level 80, and you help defeat a low-level boss like the Shadow Behemoth, YOU have an (extremely low) chance of getting, say, Dusk as a chest reward.

These are just examples and obviously a fair amount of tweaking and math needs to be done before bosses can start dropping Precursors, but are there any fundamental problems with this concept?

tl;dr Arenanet should give us alternatives to the MF for obtaining Legendary precursors because the MF is a demoralizing pure RNG. I suggest the reintroduction of GW-style super-difficult named bosses and give them extremely low chances of dropping Legendary precursors in order to restore fun and player populations to low and mid-level areas.

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Posted by: Shadark.4965

Shadark.4965

You, sir, are my hero.

I hope someone from ANet looks at this thread and leave some word about their ideas/opinions.

Good and Evil, Light and Dark
Dusk’s Coming.

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Posted by: PrestonSwain.6219

PrestonSwain.6219

But the mystic forge encourages spending real money on gold to gamble with!

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Posted by: Lorana.2468

Lorana.2468

this is already being added to the game albeit it doesnt concern the Precursor items.

see this post
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/dungeons/4-hours-of-Arah-EM-and-no-shards/first#post392172

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Posted by: Verteiron.8734

Verteiron.8734

Yes, it does, and that’s fine, really it is! I think it should absolutely remain a way to obtain Precursors. But it should not be the only way.

The other requirements for creating a Legendary are quite challenging enough without making two of the prerequisites completely dependent on chance. The Mystic Clovers already cover the luck/buy more gold element.

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Posted by: CaptainFabulous.8410

CaptainFabulous.8410

Actually I feel just the opposite. The absolute worst thing, and one of the reasons I hated the end game in WoW, is investing a ton of time and effort in dungeon run after dungeon run and never getting what I wanted. No, just no. That’s the WORST way to do rewards. Such a system certainly doesn’t hide the RNG. IMO it makes it even more irritating. And while killing Uber Lord the Nether Prince the first few times is fun, after the 50th time and still not getting the Helm of Awesomsauce you’ve been busting your kitten for a month to get it’s no longer any fun at all.

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Posted by: Shadark.4965

Shadark.4965

this is already being added to the game albeit it doesnt concern the Precursor items.

see this post
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/dungeons/4-hours-of-Arah-EM-and-no-shards/first#post392172

This talks about getting tokens for unfinished Dungeon runs (and killing Dungeon bosses), not about bosses in the open world.

Good and Evil, Light and Dark
Dusk’s Coming.

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Posted by: Verteiron.8734

Verteiron.8734

this is already being added to the game albeit it doesnt concern the Precursor items.

see this post
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/dungeons/4-hours-of-Arah-EM-and-no-shards/first#post392172

That’s a good move. Players should always receive some reward for genuine effort, even if they fail. That’s good game design.

But it is a separate issue from the ones raised in my OP.

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Posted by: Suddenflame.2601

Suddenflame.2601

Here we go i think i have a plan that would make everyone happy and removes the RNG from it but would create a huge grind fest and bots would win it. To get a precursor weapon you have to max (literally max) the number of kills for that weapon type and then have max kills for a specific monster type (such as centaurs). Such as to get the Dusk precursor you have to Max kill Shadow Shelks and get max kills with Great Sword. And to get Dawn you need to max kill Hylek along with max with Weapon. There we have a extremely hard to get system that would make you legendary.

Ranger; Warrior; Mesmer; Elementalist; Guardian; Engineer
[GWAM] and [LUST]
Mess with the best, die like the rest.

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Posted by: Fozzik.1742

Fozzik.1742

Who is to say that precursors don’t already have an extremely slim chance of dropping in the open world? Maybe they do, and most people just don’t know it yet.

If one dropped for you from a mob, would you tell everybody?

People aren’t really farming boss-type mobs in the open world at all…in fact they are rarely killing them because they are known to not drop good loot. This means that if there is a very small chance of them dropping some seriously good loot, it will take much longer for the community to find out, because people just aren’t pulling that slot machine handle very often.

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Posted by: Scyler.1392

Scyler.1392

+1
I’d like an alternative to the MF, but i think there already is. I’ve heard talk about someone finding precursor in big reward chests in the Temples of orr Events, aswell as those of the 3 big dragon events.
I’m not sure how much of this is true though.

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Posted by: Verteiron.8734

Verteiron.8734

Here we go i think i have a plan that would make everyone happy and removes the RNG from it but would create a huge grind fest and bots would win it. To get a precursor weapon you have to max (literally max) the number of kills for that weapon type and then have max kills for a specific monster type (such as centaurs). Such as to get the Dusk precursor you have to Max kill Shadow Shelks and get max kills with Great Sword. And to get Dawn you need to max kill Hylek along with max with Weapon. There we have a extremely hard to get system that would make you legendary.

That’s an interesting idea, but I would just make that an Achievement. As you say, the grindy nature of it would make it exploitable by bots and… well, grindy for everyone else. Grind flies in the face of Arenanet’s stated design philosophy (yeah, yeah, I know).

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Posted by: izari.8203

izari.8203

Actually I feel just the opposite. The absolute worst thing, and one of the reasons I hated the end game in WoW, is investing a ton of time and effort in dungeon run after dungeon run and never getting what I wanted. No, just no. That’s the WORST way to do rewards. Such a system certainly doesn’t hide the RNG. IMO it makes it even more irritating. And while killing Uber Lord the Nether Prince the first few times is fun, after the 50th time and still not getting the Helm of Awesomsauce you’ve been busting your kitten for a month to get it’s no longer any fun at all.

I think the point of OP’s suggestion is to make an alternative method of getting the precursor ALONG with the MF.

If you don’t want to grind a boss for it, fine, keep sticking with the MF. But if one of the rare world bosses may also drop it, it gives you something else to do. Take a break from tossing crap into the MF; it’s still gonna be there when you get back.

I like the idea, personally. I hate the concept of the mystic forge and will more than likely just completely shut it out of my mind and pretend it doesn’t exist.

I would, however, love going back around the world and killing world bosses when they’re up. That’s what interests me, not sitting in one spot wasting gold.

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Posted by: Verteiron.8734

Verteiron.8734

Who is to say that precursors don’t already have an extremely slim chance of dropping in the open world? Maybe they do, and most people just don’t know it yet.

If one dropped for you from a mob, would you tell everybody?

Whether I would or not, don’t you think someone would have said, at some point, “HOLY KITTEN I GOT DAWN FROM THIS SKELK OMG GUYS”. Millions of players, billions of mob kills, and not one person has said anything? I don’t buy it.

+1
I’d like an alternative to the MF, but i think there already is. I’ve heard talk about someone finding precursor in big reward chests in the Temples of orr Events, aswell as those of the 3 big dragon events.
I’m not sure how much of this is true though.

If this is true (and, like the previous quote, I have my doubts), they should expand it to ALL big reward chests, provided the player is level 80.

(edited by Verteiron.8734)

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Posted by: Xyvius.1679

Xyvius.1679

Agreed. Would love and official response on this.

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Posted by: stefanoob.8170

stefanoob.8170

completely true. its so depressing when you toss so much stuff into the mystic forge and get absolutely nothing back in return. the mystic forge is probably the biggest reason why i already stopped playing this game :/

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Posted by: nastyjman.8207

nastyjman.8207

+1
I’d like an alternative to the MF, but i think there already is. I’ve heard talk about someone finding precursor in big reward chests in the Temples of orr Events, aswell as those of the 3 big dragon events.
I’m not sure how much of this is true though.

Man, we have to find those claims so we can at least assuage everyone crying about precursors. But the dearth of info from Anet makes it like a hunt… once someone discovers it, the mystery is unveiled.

I agree that random drops should be included in the options of how to get a precursor. If there was only one path on attaining this, it would really turn off some people who don’t enjoy slot machines.

- Isle Of Janthir grunt

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Posted by: urtv.8791

urtv.8791

trying to get precursor reminded me so much of trying to get crafted eternal weapons in aion.so much grinding involved in getting the materials.so much rng in getting the weapons to proc 3 or more times.funny thing is,i remember anet stating that ncsoft will not be involved in the decisions of gw2 yet with all the rng and grinding involved,i cant help to compare the two in how sadistic their punishments are

legendaries should instead have been tied to achievements.maxing weapon kills would give the precursor,maxing enemy type kills would give gifts,community would give another gift,explorer would give another component and so on.the hard working people should be the ones getting the weapons,not the ones that got lucky or were playing during betas and know the recipes to get the precursors

(edited by urtv.8791)

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Posted by: Suddenflame.2601

Suddenflame.2601

Here we go i think i have a plan that would make everyone happy and removes the RNG from it but would create a huge grind fest and bots would win it. To get a precursor weapon you have to max (literally max) the number of kills for that weapon type and then have max kills for a specific monster type (such as centaurs). Such as to get the Dusk precursor you have to Max kill Shadow Shelks and get max kills with Great Sword. And to get Dawn you need to max kill Hylek along with max with Weapon. There we have a extremely hard to get system that would make you legendary.

That’s an interesting idea, but I would just make that an Achievement. As you say, the grindy nature of it would make it exploitable by bots and… well, grindy for everyone else. Grind flies in the face of Arenanet’s stated design philosophy (yeah, yeah, I know).

Anet is not against grinding if you look at dungeon reward design and other extra stuff they are just against grinding and lvling. And it is an achievement award pretty much but becomes more a true precursor to a legendary would actually mean something over what people been calling luck. Hmmm looking at the achievements I say they should link it to Community as well (something bots can’t do) Make it a true legend by forcing people who want the Legendary to actually be part of the game. Such as making it so that Precursors only appear after you reach tier 3 on Active Guild Member Achievement, Teamwork gets it done, No one left Behind (mind you they could adjust teamwork gets it done amount) So now bots cant exploit it unless they are massively advanced bots.

Edit: also forces people to work with their Guild (hence Guild Wars)

Ranger; Warrior; Mesmer; Elementalist; Guardian; Engineer
[GWAM] and [LUST]
Mess with the best, die like the rest.

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Posted by: Celeras.4980

Celeras.4980

A.net has already explained at length why there are no named enemies at the end of event chains. In fact, it was a focal point of presentations pre-launch, and something they built they’re entire game around. See if you can figure it out ;p

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Posted by: CaptainFabulous.8410

CaptainFabulous.8410

Actually I feel just the opposite. The absolute worst thing, and one of the reasons I hated the end game in WoW, is investing a ton of time and effort in dungeon run after dungeon run and never getting what I wanted. No, just no. That’s the WORST way to do rewards. Such a system certainly doesn’t hide the RNG. IMO it makes it even more irritating. And while killing Uber Lord the Nether Prince the first few times is fun, after the 50th time and still not getting the Helm of Awesomsauce you’ve been busting your kitten for a month to get it’s no longer any fun at all.

I think the point of OP’s suggestion is to make an alternative method of getting the precursor ALONG with the MF.

If you don’t want to grind a boss for it, fine, keep sticking with the MF. But if one of the rare world bosses may also drop it, it gives you something else to do. Take a break from tossing crap into the MF; it’s still gonna be there when you get back.

I like the idea, personally. I hate the concept of the mystic forge and will more than likely just completely shut it out of my mind and pretend it doesn’t exist.

I would, however, love going back around the world and killing world bosses when they’re up. That’s what interests me, not sitting in one spot wasting gold.

I’m not necessarily against it, I was merely commenting on the OP’s notion that spending a ton of time and energy for a tiny % chance of getting a worthy award is fun. It’s not. And I wouldn’t want to see such a system that relied solely on this to be implemented. Random chances to get the stuff you want just sucks, no matter how much you try to polish it.

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Posted by: Jihoko.3927

Jihoko.3927

While this would certainly be a good addition if you’re talking obscenely low drop-rates (otherwise there would be too many legendary weapons), I don’t think this would solve the dissatisfaction/depression/madness I’ve seen from people trying for a legendary. I have played enough MMO’s to know that people aren’t any happier running a dungeon dozens of times trying to get a single item than they are throwing items in a forge. If anything, it’s even more of a grind and it’s still random. Yes, you get other awards, but you get other awards from the forge as well: just not the ones you want. Having anything other than a precursor drop from a boss isn’t going to be what those people want, and you can bet they’ll be just as unhappy.

Besides, this is already in the game to some extent. I have heard multiple times that there is a small chance for precursors from the big event chests that pop when you kill an elder dragon, and I’ve even heard tales of people getting precursors as random world drops. The poster above me that said “don’t you think people would have said something?” is right, and they have. I’ve seen many reports of this on fan sites and in-game. It’s often met with skepticism from people that haven’t got one off an event/drop, but that’s to be expected, regardless of the truth of their claims.

Ultimately, this legendary madness comes not from bad mechanics (though there is some of that at work) but from players treating them like the primary PvE end-game. There seems to be a widespread misunderstanding that the stats are slightly better than normal level 80 exotics, thus pushing players that don’t care about the skin grinding so they can have the “best” weapon. I too thought this until discovering that this was a misconception based on data-mining, they may have intended for higher stats at one point, but in-game legendary weaps have the same stats as normal exotics. They are not the primary PvE end-game, they do not advance your character, they are there as a very long-term achievement for dedicated players who really want to stand out, guild leaders who have financial support from their guilds, those lucky enough to get a precursor drop, or the very-rich w/more money than sense.

I could understand the complaints if there were no other skins to go for, but that’s simply not the case. There are dozens of unique, hard-to-get but not impossible skins out there to work towards. Some are bought with dungeon tokens, others from Kharma or PvP, and still others from static MF recipes. If players realized their legendary fervor was misplaced (they are not the best, or even best looking weapons in the game unless all you care about is making yourself a visible target in PvP) they could set more realistic goals that would still occupy their time in-game across a number of locations and varieties of gameplay.

This message will likely fall on deaf ears because it’s human nature to want that which you can not have. If arenanet makes legendaries much more easily attainable, they won’t be near as desirable or prestigious. Those people that thought getting a legendary would make them content, prestigious, etc. will quit when they realize they forgot how to do anything but grind and that no one cares about their dime-a-dozen legendary anyhow. Luckily humans aren’t slaves to that instinct and we can easily adapt our goals to be both more realistic and more fulfilling, though I fear far too few ever realize this.

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Posted by: Suddenflame.2601

Suddenflame.2601

They already randomly drop from monsters (the precursors). Its extremely low drop rate but its there.

Ranger; Warrior; Mesmer; Elementalist; Guardian; Engineer
[GWAM] and [LUST]
Mess with the best, die like the rest.

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Posted by: Jihoko.3927

Jihoko.3927

On another note, for those that want a non-random way of obtaining a precursor, this is already in-game. Arenanet made them tradeable in part so that gambling in the mystic forge, or hoping for a drop w/a ~.001% chance aren’t the only avenues of obtaining them.

Grinding gold to purchase one off the market is about as straightforward as it gets, but the price convinces people to gamble on the MF instead since they could never afford simply buying it. This is, by and large, a mistake and often just leads to wasted gold that they could have spent on alternative skins or saved towards a precursor. If the gold price for a precursor seems out of reach, it is very likely that so too is gambling for one in the MF (unless you get very lucky) and your gold/time could be better spent elsewhere.

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Posted by: ChairGraveyard.2967

ChairGraveyard.2967

Hey, would you look at that, a design that’s actually been thought out versus the unfun garbage that is the Mystic Forge.

+1

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Posted by: Verteiron.8734

Verteiron.8734

Celeras.4980: Let me show you how your post could have looked, had you chosen to be helpful instead of smug and condescending: “Arenanet said in some of their prelaunch presentations that they are deliberately avoiding putting named bosses at the end of Dynamic Events. Why not make the named bosses spawn at long interval on maps, or just apply the idea to DE chains without using named bosses?”

Those are great ideas, Celeras! Thank you for being so helpful!

Everyone else: I hear your objections that the game is already grindy, that the MF serves as a gold sink, and that Legendaries are purely optional. And that’s all true.

Right now, however, and probably for the foreseeable future, there is a huge demand for Legendaries and thus, for their Precursors. Right now, all that demand, effort, and player time is being sent down the toilet of the Mystic Forge along with the gold.

ArenaNet has an opportunity to turn that demand to more productive ends, such as repopulating the emptying zones, getting high-level players playing across the entire game, not just Orr, and in general mixing things up a bit. Just because Legendaries are completely optional doesn’t mean that going after them should be pursued in the most boring and aggravating fashion imaginable.

(edited by Verteiron.8734)

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Posted by: Verteiron.8734

Verteiron.8734

They already randomly drop from monsters (the precursors). Its extremely low drop rate but its there.

Are there any screenshots or dev statements to that effect? Rumors have real staying power in MMORPGs, but that doesn’t make them any more than rumors.

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Posted by: Tyqer.6413

Tyqer.6413

Yeah I really like the GW1 style of things. I know this is Guild Wars 2 but I can’t help but feel the way of getting 15k armor was better. Still had the maximum stats, was easily categorized, you had to get to a certain point in the game to get it, etc. But I guess that’s the same with GW2, but it’s just less obvious. I want Dungeons like the UW/FoW back. Extremely long, make them one path just like the old UW, you have to run ALL OVER and do a bunch of stuff for the Reapers again, etc., etc. Also, fighting Dhuum again would be fantastic.

Fort Aspenwood
Kireta

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Posted by: Spectra.9487

Spectra.9487

I have to agree with the gist of the original post. Most legendaries or precursors I see are in the hands of people who bot, or those who do massive karma exploiting in cursed shore. It’s a sad thing to see repetitive and unacceptable behaviour being rewarded, while the variety and challenge of the game falls far behind in providing rewards.

I realize it’s a challenge to take game out of the hands of exploiters and botters, and to put it into the hands of real legit gamers…..but I think this suggestion is a step in the right direction.

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Posted by: Suddenflame.2601

Suddenflame.2601

They already randomly drop from monsters (the precursors). Its extremely low drop rate but its there.

Are there any screenshots or dev statements to that effect? Rumors have real staying power in MMORPGs, but that doesn’t make them any more than rumors.

No but do you have any screenshots or dev statements to say that they are not? I have rumors that they do drop from monsters but you have nothing to support that they dont. Apparently rumors and speculation state that they come from
1. Random world drop and from Temple events in Orr as well as Claw of Jormag.
2. (Post-patch) players reported only getting precursors from 80+ rares and 71+ Exotics.
number 2 is talking about mystic forge while number 1 is talking about drops.

Ranger; Warrior; Mesmer; Elementalist; Guardian; Engineer
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Mess with the best, die like the rest.

(edited by Suddenflame.2601)

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Posted by: Jihoko.3927

Jihoko.3927

They already randomly drop from monsters (the precursors). Its extremely low drop rate but its there.

Are there any screenshots or dev statements to that effect? Rumors have real staying power in MMORPGs, but that doesn’t make them any more than rumors.

No but do you have any screenshots or dev statements to say that they are not? I have rumors that they do drop from monsters but you have nothing to support that they dont.

At the very least I think it’s likely they drop from the big event chests that pop after the raid events, since I have seen claims of this countless times and the amount of these chests opened is low enough that it’s understandable there aren’t videos/screens. Believing that they drop from any world mob though is a bit more difficult, unless the chance is something like %.000001 because you’d think there would be more first-hand reports/screens. Then again, it’s entirely possible they do drop with a 1-in-ten-million chance but that means it’s not relevant for those pursuing them.

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Posted by: Brave Sir Ryan.1240

Brave Sir Ryan.1240

There is an easy way to address both the MF and the variance. Simply add an intermediary item.

Let’s say ANet wants it to take an average of 500 weapons to get a precursor. As it stands now, someone who is very unlucky could easily put in 2,000 weapons and not get one. In fact, on average, this would happen to 1.8% of players! Others could get it on the first try. That much luck is not a good game mechanic, and very much not fair to people who are simply unlucky; the cost is enormous.

I also understand the MF is important.

To contrast that scenario, imagine every 20 weapons, on average, gave you an item that you could use to reliably craft dusk, dawn, lover, whatever. It takes 25 of those items to craft your desired precursor.

Now you get a much nicer statistical distribution while still fulfilling the task of having players dump tons of weapons into the forge, and even require the same average amount of items, leaving the total MF usage by players to be identical. I’d even suggest that you would get MORE people using the forge, because many do not like the miniscule chance of success. However, it becomes statistically impossible for somebody to get it on 1 or 2,000 forges.

This is all ANet needs to do: simply add an intermediary item. Adds fairness, doesn’t hurt MF.

Edit to add: not going for precuror? Great, sell it on TP. Want to buy and don’t like gambling? Fine, buy intermediary item on TP; it came from mystic forging.

(edited by Brave Sir Ryan.1240)

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Posted by: Ampris.5321

Ampris.5321

another solution is to combine MF with tokens

ur saying it sux to feel like ur not making progress? i agree.

so instead of 1/1billion chance of getting dusk

make dusk cost x MF tokens, and give MF 1/3 chance of dropping token instead of rare/exotic

this way u can always feel like you are getting closer instead of throwing money away

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Posted by: Verteiron.8734

Verteiron.8734

They already randomly drop from monsters (the precursors). Its extremely low drop rate but its there.

Are there any screenshots or dev statements to that effect? Rumors have real staying power in MMORPGs, but that doesn’t make them any more than rumors.

No but do you have any screenshots or dev statements to say that they are not?

Pretty sure there’s a logical fallacy there, but nevermind, nevermind.

Even if what you’re saying is true, the end result is the same: no one is out killing world mobs or doing DEs with the serious hope of getting a precursor. Either they don’t drop precursors, or they do, and no one has gotten one that way yet and posted about it. Either way, it’s not sufficient incentive to get people out doing non-Orr DEs.

I just want to clarify something here, too, with everyone: I don’t have a horse in this race. I’m not posting this because I’m angry about not getting a precursor. I have so little time to play that my main hasn’t even hit 80 yet, despite getting started on day 1 of the prelaunch weekend. A Legendary weapon, even with the system I’m proposing, is so far out of reach that it will be years before I can think about getting one. I’m taking it slow. I’m still having lots of fun with the game just as it is.

I posted this thread because it’s clear that people are angry and frustrated about how the MF/Precursor system works, and I think I can see an opportunity to alleviate that while also adding value to the rest of the game, in the form of getting high-level players out of Orr and back into the rest of the world, doing the DEs and playing in all the content that Arenanet has worked so hard to create.

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Posted by: Verteiron.8734

Verteiron.8734

Brave Sir Ryan and Ampris also have good ideas for alleviating the Mystic Forge frustration, and that could work with my idea, too… make those same tokens a rare level 80 drop from world bosses or long event chains.

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Posted by: ChairGraveyard.2967

ChairGraveyard.2967

There is an easy way to address both the MF and the variance. Simply add an intermediary item.

Let’s say ANet wants it to take an average of 500 weapons to get a precursor. As it stands now, someone who is very unlucky could easily put in 2,000 weapons and not get one. In fact, on average, this would happen to 1.8% of players! Others could get it on the first try. That much luck is not a good game mechanic, and very much not fair to people who are simply unlucky; the cost is enormous.

I also understand the MF is important.

To contrast that scenario, imagine every 20 weapons, on average, gave you an item that you could use to reliably craft dusk, dawn, lover, whatever. It takes 25 of those items to craft your desired precursor.

Now you get a much nicer statistical distribution while still fulfilling the task of having players dump tons of weapons into the forge, and even require the same average amount of items, leaving the total MF usage by players to be identical. I’d even suggest that you would get MORE people using the forge, because many do not like the miniscule chance of success. However, it becomes statistically impossible for somebody to get it on 1 or 2,000 forges.

This is all ANet needs to do: simply add an intermediary item. Adds fairness, doesn’t hurt MF.

Edit to add: not going for precuror? Great, sell it on TP. Want to buy and don’t like gambling? Fine, buy intermediary item on TP; it came from mystic forging.

I’d be fine with this. As you say due to the high random nature of it, some people get instantly rich while others spend months and hundreds of gold with nothing to show for it, which causes the feeling of constantly moving away from your goal.

Especially given that their random number generator is not a true random, but pseudo-random, and depending on the implementation (especially if it is naive rand()) could be extremely bad in terms of having some people be super lucky while others are super unlucky.

Not being able to progress at all in what is arguably the main end game content after world completion is absurdly bad game design.

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Posted by: ajpearman.2586

ajpearman.2586

I completely agree with OP, but it shouldn’t just apply to the precursors to legendary items. Currently there is really NO reason to do dungeons that don’t have the token gear you want or lower level world bosses because there just are not any level 80 incentives.

All world bosses and dungeon chests need to be given sets of their own unique and interesting loot. If you’re going to base a game around cosmetic gear, there needs to be a lot of different looks AND various ways of obtaining that gear. Right now you have to dump tons of money into a gambling machine or the TP to get what you want. This doesn’t involve playing the older zones or going through dungeons. It has turned the entire game into a race to get gold so you can afford whatever Mystic Forge exotics you want.

The main argument against this is that it creates a fantastic gold sink and way to keep the number of weapons and gear circulating low, but the last time I checked, the price of obtaining legendary precursors and unique exotics has gone through the roof. This separates the community into people who are willing to farm for gold and people who cannot. Last time I checked, Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be a fun, somewhat casual, play however you want MMORPG.

Here's how to fix the precursor complaints

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Posted by: Tribune.3782

Tribune.3782

I dislike this idea because it forces me to gather a group of experienced and skilled players. I consider myself to be above average skill, but I also like playing with less skilled people or RL-friends without making or joining an elite guild just to get the legendary (item/precursor). I want to be able to get it without the danger that the project to get a legendary changes the way I choose my fellows.

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Posted by: Arisal.9740

Arisal.9740

What is really going to blow peoples minds are if the rumor that there are specific recipes to make a specific precursor weapon is true. IE the mat costs are already in the 100+ gold but there is NO random chance at all as long as you have the mats to make it.

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Posted by: Verteiron.8734

Verteiron.8734

ajpearman: I think more gear/armor sets would be awesome, but creating new stuff requires artist resources, which I’m sure are occupied with creating other new content. A good long-term goal, sure, but my original suggestion could be implemented without taxing the art teams Agree with you on the gold race, though.

Tribune: That’s why I think this should be a feature in addition to the MF, not instead of the MF.

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Posted by: nastyjman.8207

nastyjman.8207

It would be great (probably ideal) if they could also integrate the drops to meta event bosses. That way there are three avenues to vie for a precursor: Mystic Forge, Explorable Dungeons and Meta Bosses.

- Isle Of Janthir grunt

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Posted by: CaptainFabulous.8410

CaptainFabulous.8410

While this would certainly be a good addition if you’re talking obscenely low drop-rates (otherwise there would be too many legendary weapons), I don’t think this would solve the dissatisfaction/depression/madness I’ve seen from people trying for a legendary. I have played enough MMO’s to know that people aren’t any happier running a dungeon dozens of times trying to get a single item than they are throwing items in a forge. If anything, it’s even more of a grind and it’s still random. Yes, you get other awards, but you get other awards from the forge as well: just not the ones you want. Having anything other than a precursor drop from a boss isn’t going to be what those people want, and you can bet they’ll be just as unhappy.

Besides, this is already in the game to some extent. I have heard multiple times that there is a small chance for precursors from the big event chests that pop when you kill an elder dragon, and I’ve even heard tales of people getting precursors as random world drops. The poster above me that said “don’t you think people would have said something?” is right, and they have. I’ve seen many reports of this on fan sites and in-game. It’s often met with skepticism from people that haven’t got one off an event/drop, but that’s to be expected, regardless of the truth of their claims.

Ultimately, this legendary madness comes not from bad mechanics (though there is some of that at work) but from players treating them like the primary PvE end-game. There seems to be a widespread misunderstanding that the stats are slightly better than normal level 80 exotics, thus pushing players that don’t care about the skin grinding so they can have the “best” weapon. I too thought this until discovering that this was a misconception based on data-mining, they may have intended for higher stats at one point, but in-game legendary weaps have the same stats as normal exotics. They are not the primary PvE end-game, they do not advance your character, they are there as a very long-term achievement for dedicated players who really want to stand out, guild leaders who have financial support from their guilds, those lucky enough to get a precursor drop, or the very-rich w/more money than sense.

I could understand the complaints if there were no other skins to go for, but that’s simply not the case. There are dozens of unique, hard-to-get but not impossible skins out there to work towards. Some are bought with dungeon tokens, others from Kharma or PvP, and still others from static MF recipes. If players realized their legendary fervor was misplaced (they are not the best, or even best looking weapons in the game unless all you care about is making yourself a visible target in PvP) they could set more realistic goals that would still occupy their time in-game across a number of locations and varieties of gameplay.

This message will likely fall on deaf ears because it’s human nature to want that which you can not have. If arenanet makes legendaries much more easily attainable, they won’t be near as desirable or prestigious. Those people that thought getting a legendary would make them content, prestigious, etc. will quit when they realize they forgot how to do anything but grind and that no one cares about their dime-a-dozen legendary anyhow. Luckily humans aren’t slaves to that instinct and we can easily adapt our goals to be both more realistic and more fulfilling, though I fear far too few ever realize this.

This, this, and THIS. And yes, it will completely fall on deaf ears.

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Posted by: Kincaidia.3192

Kincaidia.3192

Why can’t I +1 this? I guess I just say

+1

Killing a Veteran Undead Giant at level 78 solo, in an epic, multi-downed state battle, and getting NOTHING? Wow, that’s a kick in the groin. Jormag? Oh, it was exciting once or twice, but after 5 or 6 times of nothing but vendor blues/greens? Sorry, I’m done.

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Posted by: Grumwulf.9602

Grumwulf.9602

My sister in law actually dropped a precursor in story mode Citedal of Flame. Not sure what off exactly. But this drop chance from dungeons is already in the game.

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Posted by: yawg.4172

yawg.4172

As a redditor, I feel compelled to say “THIS!!”

As an avid player and fan of the Guild Wars games, I feel the need to express a little more eloquently.

Dear ArenaNet,

THIS!!!

Yours Truly,
Yawg

Here's how to fix the precursor complaints

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Posted by: Mamric.8143

Mamric.8143

But then isn’t that just a Mystic Forge with a health bar?

Here's how to fix the precursor complaints

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Posted by: LastDay.3524

LastDay.3524

I can’t say this for a fact, but I think that the Mystic Forge giving you garbage is intentional.

It eats away absolutely massive amounts of items every day as everybody thinks that they are gonna win big.

Unidentified dyes are this to a lesser extent.
You can buy Abyss Dye off TP or you can gamble with unidentified ones.
Odds are you lose many times over gambling, but you’ll wanna do it anyway because gambling is addicting.

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Posted by: Andulvar.4265

Andulvar.4265

You know precursor weapons are also drops from chests right?

The MF is an Alternative method not the only method.

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Posted by: Lobo.1296

Lobo.1296

Heck even if they weren’t precursors but weapons/armors with cool, different, unique skins dropped from rare, named mobs or boss mobs tied to event that would be a great idea.

+1 Sir!

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Posted by: Majorbooze.9620

Majorbooze.9620

This isn’t Wow, this isn’t guild wars 1, it’s a new and unique mmo. Why do all mmo’s have to fit the mold why can’t be one be new and fresh.

The mystic forge is a Obvious gold sink, of course your going to feel like your losing.

Also the legendary’s aren’t meant to be obtained by everyone in a month. They are a long term goal, I personally like the grind, and would not wanted it handed to me.