Reforging Orr with WvW mechanics.

Reforging Orr with WvW mechanics.

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Posted by: Shriketalon.1937

Shriketalon.1937

Note: this is a tad long. For the TL:DR, consult the uploaded infographics designed for your convenience.

Orr has problems. Between the past horde of bots mindlessly shuffling about slaying mindless shufflers, the severe annoyance of trying to walk any distance without every necrotic abomination within three leagues trying to chew your ankles off, and the absurd competition between players over getting loot tags, there’s nothing remotely resembling a proper war on the entire continent. Orr is lifeless, and despite the poetic irony, that isn’t particularly fitting for this game. I would thus like to discuss a way to add the spark of life to this husk of a continent, and reanimate it into the spectacular warzone it deserves to be.

Fortunately, all the mechanics already exist in WvW. All Orr needs is a little bit of loving from the mechanisms used in WvW design: destructible fortifications, spontaneous and sustained events, and flexibile AI. Reforging Orr with these systems will allow it to become something unique, a Player Versus Environment persistent warzone. This will require a few basic principles.

All Orrian zones should be level 80. All of them should be proactive, player-driven attack/defend warzones. All of them will require time, coordination, and teamwork to accomplish anything significant, although some content for the lone player will still exist in the form of out-of-the-way delves. The majority of Orr should be essentially empty (none of this undead-every-five-feet tediousness), allowing players to move freely, but the battlezones themselves should be up to our ears in undead foes fighting masses of players, along with all manner of siege equipment for both sides. It will also have world bosses and a way to escalate conflict to break stalemates, thus ensuring that the content should remain fresh. With these principles, Orr can become a truly unique zone, unlike any other area in the game.

This will require four things: revising the map, rethinking siege events, reworking player-led assaults, and redistributing the loot.

The Map

Orr is actually well structured and lovingly rendered, when you aren’t being knawed upon every five feet and have the time to enjoy the view. With a handful of tweaks, the maps can become an excellent warzone. The primary change will be turning current camps and structures into destructible terrain. Rather than have camps with functional gates that get “captured” by undead just shuffling in, these zones can be redone so that the walls and gates can be destroyed, just like in WvW. This will allow the undead to actually lay siege to certain areas.

In turn, the undead controlled areas can get structures of their own. Bone walls and guard towers are already in the game, and it wouldn’t be difficult to allow the undead to claim terrain via their insidious architecture. The goal here is to take existing features of the map (pact bases, major trouble spots, and the temples) and turn them into WvW style objectives. For your convenience, I’ve cobbled together a set of map examples. They’re a tad crude, but hopefully they convey the overall idea.

The Straits of Devastation forms a very simple, intuitive map. Each of the three landings presents a clear chain of conquest, with each area being contested like a MOBA lane. Malchor’s Leap will be a little stranger due to its structure, but should form a decent attack/defend setup. Players must defend the eastern sections in order to launch attacks across the canyon and seize the two temples. Finally, Cursed Shore will form a decent twin pairing, with the north and eastern side of the map independent from the south and west.

Attachments:

(edited by Shriketalon.1937)

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Posted by: Shriketalon.1937

Shriketalon.1937

But what is a warzone without a proper army? The enemies in Orr are simply not suited to the level of play it needs. Your average rotting corpse may not be the brightest bulb in the bunch, but the overall onslaught needs to be far more crafty and nefarious. The AI for this zone would have to work differently than standard timed events. Instead of kicking things off based on the clock, the undead would periodically launch assaults on the nearest Pact strongholds. Some randomization should likely be included, so if there are three targets available the risen will decide on one or two rather than have a guaranteed progression. With a simple AI in place, the game can commence attacking the living.

So, let’s talk about how to make an undead siege. A good battle against the risen should be a wide affair, with a large number of players scrambling to stave off the horde. It should divide the playerbase between several objectives; clearing the walls, slaying infiltrators, launching assaults against siege equipment, and maintaining the fortifications. To do that, we define four general formations of monsters.

The Frontline attacks the objective directly. The Perimeter plants itself outside the objective and establishes a zone of control. The Siege sets up within the zone established by the Perimeter and starts laying down artillery fire on the objective. And finally, the Sappers are composed of units that can circumvent standard barriers and attack the fort from the inside.

Each siege should randomly decide on a number of forces (scaling upward and outward based on player response) and each type of unit from the above pools. As the event scales upward, it can start drawing from multiple sets for variety.

Finally, I suggest four world bosses running around Orr, capable of attacking any keep or tower during an Escalation.

-Tequatl Twins. A quick look to the sky shows at least three draconic champions of Zaitan, thus allowing for a fight against multiple Tequatl-like creatures at once.

-The Ghost Ship. A spectral version of the sailing pirate ship (which can move, as demonstrated by it sailing away when it wins the shore event) which coasts across land or sea, firing cannons, unleashing pirate raiders, and keel-hauling anyone foolish enough to get in front of it.

-The Soul Well. Retexture the Fire Elemental boss as a rising column of wailing souls and kitten spirits for hexual harassment (NEVER forget to practice safe hex, especially around undead).

-Release the Kraken. Create a world boss made of world bosses, a risen giant squid composed of several individual parts. One shell-encased body (invulnerable, and for show), four attacking tentacles (using the giant wurm model), four siege tentacles (similar to the large claws that fling objects), and two support tentacles (mostly for show), and you’ll have a malevolent monstrosity ready to feed.

The Art of Escalation

Under normal circumstances, a siege is a fairly simple affair. Undead try to break down the gates and walls, enter the keep, and capture the zones. Players attempt to drive them away, break their perimeter and siege, and protect NPC repair crews. The key, however, is to avoid stagnation. Should the players win everything and seize the map, something needs to turn the tide.

And that is Horde Mode.

If the entire zone is controlled by players and a certain amount of time passes, it unlocks Horde Mode. The temples will be besieged with ever-escalating, endless waves of undead, allowing the players to fight truly intense wars until they eventually fall. Not that eventual failure can’t be fun as hell, mind you, since Horde Mode should feature some of the most intense dynamic events in the game. To do so, it should go something like this…

-The battle begins scaling upward above the current player population, eventually becoming a fight meant for 2-3 times the current playerbase.
-Veterans and extra siege equipment are introduced over time.
-World bosses begin stirring, performing strafing runs.
-Champion mobs enter the battlefield.
-A World Boss enters the fray.
-Normal Undead are replaced by veterans.
-Double world bosses attack.
-Keep scaling. The programming should find a way to ensure that the match becomes absolutely unwinnable by the best of teams and almost never occur, but provide for the one in a million possibility with a fun and engaging battle. Break the players or break the server. Either way, crush them!

Fine-tuned, the results should be a battle that is ultimately impossible to win, but fun and rewarding to play. Horde Mode should provide greater rewards the longer players can hold the line, allowing the entire server to come together and give it their all. As long as the rewards match the amount of effort, players will have a strong incentive to hold out as long as possible against the endless undead onslaught.

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Posted by: Shriketalon.1937

Shriketalon.1937

But the undead aren’t the only ones laying siege. Players need to have fun as well. Developing that content shouldn’t be particularly difficult compared to creating a siege. When the undead control a structure, they should set up a reasonable defense.

-A boss monster and company should patrol a capture ring, much like lords in WvW.
-Towers should have bone walls constructed around the perimeter to block passage.
-These bone walls should have ranged defenders overhead and melee defenders milling about.
-An attack event will trigger a few defender waves with an obscenely high aggro radius.
-Certain special NPCs can be developed to hunt down player siege equipment.

Otherwise, taking an undead fort is much like the current claiming objectives, albeit with more structure. Special bosses like the various priests apply as normal, and certain structures can have objectives (like the Lyssan altar only being accessible when all three seals are claimed).

Speaking of siege weapons, players should gain access to certain pact weaponry via karma. Likewise, the events scattered around the map that are currently just for show could provide bonuses to siege. Help repair the crashed chopper, and the next siege will have aerial bombardment. Assist with gathering a special relic, and it can provide a shield against the next undead siege. These events shouldn’t be scrapped, but they can be easily reconfigured to assist the server’s overall mission.

This will make players the leaders of the war effort, not the followers. No more sitting around passively waiting for an event to start up and let us slay a boss. We take to the field, we determine the time and the place, and we lead the charge to slay every risen abomination on the continent. The NPCs are OUR backup this time, not the other way around. Let nothing stand between us, the enemy, and their shiny objects.

Speaking of shinies (yeah, that was a crude segueway, sue me)….

The loot situation in Orr is toxic. Players currently compete for drops in a way that isn’t remotely healthy for the community. The mantra of PvE in this game is that players should always be a benefit, people you are happy to see. If the loot system is destroying that, the loot system must be changed. To counter this problem, I propose a rather radical solution.

Eliminate loot drops in Orr.

This may sound a tad extreme, but let me allay any negative reactions to the above comment. Loot drops from standard mobs can be completely eliminated in Orr, as long as there is another route: Karma. If Karma in Orr falls like rain, players have a special incentive to play there that is based around overall participation. By providing heavy karma bonuses for Orrian war events along with a proper set of pact vendors, Orr can mimic a fully functional drop system while circumventing the need to tag mobs.

Meanwhile, provide karma with purpose, and lots of it. Give pact vendors a nice selection of karma supplies, including 1) Tier 1-6 loot bags, 2) Supply Crates organized by general equipment type (Artificer, Huntsman, Leather, etc) that contain five random items of that category, 3) Bulk commodities for cooking supplies, especially lower level elements that go into high level recipes, and 4) Salvage stocks, which unpack into several trash items for breakdown. This will cover pretty much everything under the sun, as long as the odds of getting rare equipment from the Crates use the standard loot probabilities. One more thing will seal the deal.

Make claiming temples provide a server-wide karma discount to Orrian vendors. The better your server does at stemming the undead tide, the cheaper it is to buy supplies, get special armor, and deck out your character with all manner of karmarific loot. And since everything is communal, the spirit of camaraderie will always be present.

To allow lone players to have their fun, scatter more daily chests throughout the nooks, crannies, crevices, and crypts of the Orrian countryside. As long as there are a few out-of-the-way areas with a veteran boss and chest, players can still have fun. Likewise, position the majority of the gathering nodes in these areas, thus ensuring that people work a bit for their effort.

TL:DR?

Turn Orr into a WvW warzone, players versus the undead horde. Make us fight for defined objectives in a proactive manner, allowing players to lead the fight rather than wait around for events to spawn. Use destructible terrain and spontaneous capture/control events to make Orr an all out Server Versus Dragonspawn war. Get rid of distractions such as mob tagging and let players focus on achieving victory together, and Orr will be a continent upon which legends are forged.

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Posted by: THE DOCTOR.3510

THE DOCTOR.3510

Sounds like an awesome idea, motivation to go to Orr!!!

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Posted by: Jam.4521

Jam.4521

I love this idea, its pretty close to what I imagined Orr would be like when they first advertised the area.

Have you put this in the suggestions forum?

BOOM

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Posted by: AgentBrand.7092

AgentBrand.7092

I want to play this.

It still needsome work but I want to play this.

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Posted by: Ninth Requiem.3250

Ninth Requiem.3250

Turn Orr into a WvW warzone, players versus the undead horde. Make us fight for defined objectives in a proactive manner, allowing players to lead the fight rather than wait around for events to spawn. Use destructible terrain and spontaneous capture/control events to make Orr an all out Server Versus Dragonspawn war. Get rid of distractions such as mob tagging and let players focus on achieving victory together, and Orr will be a continent upon which legends are forged.

Very yes.
I’ve not been back to Orr in months. It’s just not interesting to me. However, were this added, I may never leave.

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Posted by: Gaudrath.6725

Gaudrath.6725

Two thumbs up, but only because I have only two hands! This is what Orr should be like!

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Posted by: Bloody Zac.8960

Bloody Zac.8960

I’ve always thought that Guild Wars 2 Endgame should take a page from WvW. Well done.

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Posted by: loneknight.8425

loneknight.8425

lol, I already have this speculation that Ruins of Orr can be evolved into a X v X map. However my personal background story for Orr as new battleground is once the rise threat is mostly taken care of (just a few of them here & there for a bit of variety), the whole place is similar to Antarctica (as there will be no living Orrian to claim it), where each nation or even guild will try to claim as many part of the land possible as their territory. Perhaps the ‘Guild’ part of GW2 can finally make its presence in this map

I hope the map can be turned into a one big free-for-all

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Posted by: Pinkus.2860

Pinkus.2860

Shrik, your idea needs to be seen by the devs RIGHT NOW

I was letting this mull over in my mind for a while and came up with a couple of ideas

- The maps become overflow style servers which have a player cap but any player from any server can join. This allows the zone to be relatively populated around the clock. If the server becomes full, a new one is started so on and so forth. Obviously balancing issues would need to be worked out.

- As Ascended gear is here to stay, why not give some of the harder mobs (even the keep champions) agony? You could then add in the ascended gear / components as part of the karma vendor purchases. Make it a high price to balance with the effort involved running fractals to get the same items.

- Have a chest or treasure pit in each main objective as well as the reward you suggest. Otherwise it would just feel like a karma farm.

Pinkus – Co GM of Nocturnal [NOC] – Blackgate
http://www.nocturnalguild.com.au
Oceanics Represent!

(edited by Pinkus.2860)

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Posted by: moiraine.2753

moiraine.2753

I think the idea is awesome.
+1 to the OP

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Posted by: HighCAT.5924

HighCAT.5924

+1, yes please – Orr is annoying as it is now

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Posted by: Joseph WM Watson.6032

Joseph WM Watson.6032

I’m all for it. Seems like a remarkable idea!

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Posted by: Le Rooster.8715

Le Rooster.8715

+1 From me, seems like a great idea.

Roosters Inc-Team Shatter [TS] Commander
Sea of Sorrows http://www.gw2sos.com/index.php

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Posted by: FaythArcana.1790

FaythArcana.1790

This is a brilliant idea that needs to be seriously considered by the devs. I would love to see this in Orr, it really would make it feel like a proper war against the Risen. Some thought will have to go into the driving force though, to justify the continuing war for those who completetheir story. Maybe a former champion took control after Zhaitan’s demise or something like that. ^^

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Posted by: Khairos.3890

Khairos.3890

Oh my god, this idea is absolutely amazing. The thought never even crossed my mind but now..

A PVE version of WvW. It’s fitting to see packs and packs of risen banging on the front gates of a keep. It really gives off that apocalyptic wasteland atmosphere.

Now players will actually escort dolyaks as risen come to take them out.

I love this idea, the idea has TONS of room for more great ideas, Anet Developers, read this thread immediately and throw this on your drawing board.

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Posted by: help.2645

help.2645

10/10 would play.

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Posted by: dekou.6012

dekou.6012

IIRC, the devs said Orr would be a bit like WvW in PvE, but we all know what happened to that.

If Orr was like this, it would be a unique and fun endgame experience.

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Posted by: Hungry.3087

Hungry.3087

well thought out. it is a great idea!! do this

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Posted by: Ackos.7942

Ackos.7942

Just what i wanted a pve wvw
+1 for me

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Posted by: Mesket.5728

Mesket.5728

This is kind of a must for a soon to be truly dead zone…

events and stuff scaled for lots of players, nobody goes there since the only end game is fractals :S

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Posted by: Fransson.7910

Fransson.7910

If this were to happen, the zones would get interesting. The only time they ever were interesting was during the first week after release.. so yeah, I support this

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Posted by: Le Rooster.8715

Le Rooster.8715

Can i recommend something, putting this post also in the WvW forums as it definintly needs to get more attention.

Roosters Inc-Team Shatter [TS] Commander
Sea of Sorrows http://www.gw2sos.com/index.php

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Posted by: Ganzicus.1426

Ganzicus.1426

This is a fantastic concept.

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Posted by: Palidane.9765

Palidane.9765

Oh heck yes. This is exactly what Orr needs. Count me in for the Undead Apocalypse!

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Posted by: Ian Smith.8690

Ian Smith.8690

Can i recommend something, putting this post also in the WvW forums as it definintly needs to get more attention.

Code of Conduct says, don’t do that.

Do not cross post. Post your message once in the appropriate sub-forum and nowhere else; otherwise it will be locked or removed without warning.

But I see no rule about posting links to it from other forum sites to possibly bring more people in, i.e: Reddit, Guild Wars 2 Hub, Guild Wars Insider, Guild Wars 2 Guru, GWOline, MMO-Champion.com, and Guild Wars 2 Forum are a few places to start.

As for the suggestions presented by Shriketalon, and as mentioned by a few others, these ideas are somewhat of what I pictured Orr as being. Instead we got monsters standing in every freaking field and the same repetitive events from the starter zones. Hopefully the restucturing of DEs that has been mentioned will fall somewhere along these thoughts. Nice work Shriketalon.

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Posted by: Pinkus.2860

Pinkus.2860

Need to give this more exposure!

Pinkus – Co GM of Nocturnal [NOC] – Blackgate
http://www.nocturnalguild.com.au
Oceanics Represent!

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Posted by: Kelathos.4512

Kelathos.4512

OP, job well done on the creative ideas. With your descriptive narrative we can only hope and pray Anet reads it and takes heart. The game would be much more lively and entertaining if your ideas were used.

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Posted by: Vol.5241

Vol.5241

You should really request to move it to Suggestions, the devs actually go through there

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Posted by: Elthurien.8356

Elthurien.8356

Brilliant suggestion +1 from me

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Posted by: Xaspian.5740

Xaspian.5740

I very much agree. This should be in place for Orr, and future top-level areas in expansions where the pact is taking the fight to the dragons.

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Posted by: Zoky.6735

Zoky.6735

+1 +1 and +1 :-)

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Posted by: luizgrossi.4593

luizgrossi.4593

Great idea.

+1 for me

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Posted by: fony.5102

fony.5102

this is a great idea.

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Posted by: ParaldaWind.4523

ParaldaWind.4523

I hope the devs look into something like this.

Hell, I wouldn’t even mind the LoTRO method of having enemy players be the NPCs.

No tears, only dreams
Paralda – Leader of [PYRO]
Maguuma – youtube.com/pyrogw2

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Posted by: Ironcloud.3892

Ironcloud.3892

+1
Fifteen characters

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Posted by: Kaineng.9374

Kaineng.9374

+1000
i logged in just to say this is an amazing idea! devs please make this happen!

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Posted by: marianitten.1247

marianitten.1247

Best idea EVER.

For Those About to Zerg (We Salute You)

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Posted by: Halcyon Dayz.8239

Halcyon Dayz.8239

+1 would love this, would be a booming monthly update

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Posted by: rgrwng.4072

rgrwng.4072

yay! an answer to my PvE needs! world v world in a pve setting allows me to be part of the community, while NOT fighting other players, which i dislike with a passion (i like killing AI, not other players). might also serve as a good WvW (pvpve) introduction. at the moment, you go to a borderland, and just zerg around with not much instruction. at least , it being in Orr, and level 80 zones, it would be a nice introduction to the game play, while offering lots of MORE fun for all players.

at this point:

*-The battle begins scaling upward above the current player population, eventually becoming a fight meant for 2-3 times the current player base.
-Veterans and extra siege equipment are introduced over time.
-World bosses begin stirring, performing strafing runs.
-Champion mobs enter the battlefield.
-A World Boss enters the fray.
-Normal Undead are replaced by veterans.
-Double world bosses attack.
-Keep scaling. The programming should find a way to ensure that the match becomes absolutely unwinnable by the best of teams and almost never occur, but provide for the one in a million possibility with a fun and engaging battle. Break the players or break the server. Either way, crush them!
*

will the last phase have a chance for precursors, SHOULD ORR BE THEN 100% PLAYER OWNED?? if eliminating drops, replacing with higher karma rewards (and possibly karma discounts), this might be a neat addition, along with the assumed money drops (events giving karma and money)? Inb4 precursor drop rates and making legendaries easier to obtain, because SOMEONE HAD TO ASK. sorry to ask, but i am imagining tha the last phase with the 2 bosses could play out similarly to the Giant Karka event (except you have 2 of those at the same time).

> standard dragon battles are cool, too, if it’s easier to program/design for.

(edited by rgrwng.4072)

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Posted by: SilverS.2093

SilverS.2093

this sounds very cool. i would welcome this with open arms, with just a little bit of tweaking. i play wvw quite a bit & one of the main mechanics we use to hold on to things is to upgrade the keeps & towers. this requires us to run & protect dolyaks who carry supply from the camps to the appropriate fortification. in your maps you fabbed up, the supply camps seem like an after thought, and some of the towers and things seem haphazardly placed. the concept sounds awesome but the maps need some work.

additionally, i am not sure that karma would be the best currency to use, whats stopping people from getting karma elsewhere & then buying t6 mats like crazy then leaving? i hate to say this but there should be something like orrian dust or orrian shards or something unique that you will have to actually fight orrian monsters to get the orrian rewards

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Posted by: Lucky Shot.8740

Lucky Shot.8740

I like the original posters ideas and I’d like to take it a step farther.

One of the best questlines in the game is the attack on the Incendio Templum in Diessa Plateau.

The concept is that you must build up Bloodsaw Mill and free the members of the warband from their current chore in order to go assault the flame temple legion. Once you finish the various building chores, you assault the flame temple location, capturing it which opens an open world dungeon in which the whole server can pour in as long as the portal is in friendly hands.

This is what should have taken place in Orr, in my opinion. WvW assaults onto locations where you have to build before you can move onto the next objective. The fight for these cathedral tops should open a portal into a raid type dungeon which any number of people can pour into a group to take on for as long as the cathedral is held. If you lose the cathedral, you lose entrance to the dungeon and possibly worse for those still inside.

I think there needs to be some incentive for people to defend ground in orr and that while the events leading to priest fights are interesting, there should be more to it. Building portal entrances into a further dungeon inside the cathedral requiring players to defend the entrance, would likely do it. Possibly allowing a guild to claim the cathedral for a short time and pay to upgrade defenses might help a group take ownership of defense as well. Then you run with the original posters idea of the ever increasing army to try and take it back.

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Posted by: micron.5369

micron.5369

Turn Orr into a WvW warzone, players versus the undead horde. Make us fight for defined objectives in a proactive manner, allowing players to lead the fight rather than wait around for events to spawn. Use destructible terrain and spontaneous capture/control events to make Orr an all out Server Versus Dragonspawn war. Get rid of distractions such as mob tagging and let players focus on achieving victory together, and Orr will be a continent upon which legends are forged.

I started an alt awhile back and was running through orr again for the first time in a month or two. I forgot how horribly obnoxious that place was. If orr was something like described here, I’d be PVE’ing there quite a bit! As of now, it’s just so much more fun (and less annoying) to do PVE stuff elsewhere, which is a bit sad to say…

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Posted by: OutspokenAardvark.9781

OutspokenAardvark.9781

+1
Fifteen characters

Rhyme – Commander
[DIS] Dissentient – http://dissentient.org
[TC] Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: Xia.3485

Xia.3485

Oh wow, this would be awesome! Especially the idea about removing drop loot. That would make the battles less of a frenzy free for all grab and more about the objectives.

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Posted by: paperplay.6941

paperplay.6941

this needs to get on the dev’s radar

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Posted by: hendusoone.3504

hendusoone.3504

Holy kitten, this is amazing. I would play this for days on end.

Though, the loot bit may need a bit of work. How about also allowing loot on the corpse of each tower/keep’s boss mob, or maybe a chest with a decent chance of rares/exotics (similar to the world bosses, but with better loot tables)?

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Posted by: Tydrelis.8651

Tydrelis.8651

Best idea I’ve heard in a long time!

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Posted by: Duckmurderer.4018

Duckmurderer.4018

This is the way I expected it to be in the first place.