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Posted by: John Smith

John Smith

Next

I apologize for the lack of current details. What I can currently say about this topic is that
we’ve recently begun a renewed campaign against RMT and Bots. The change in these markets is a direct result of the success of that campaign.

You can expect to see more details coming out within the next couple of weeks.

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Posted by: tyu.9470

tyu.9470

Thanks for the post so people won’t spam reddit/offical forums with same question in different threads!

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Posted by: ZudetGambeous.9573

ZudetGambeous.9573

Thanks for the update. This is basically what I’ve been telling people. I hope you continue to ban bots so the prices keep rising… I’ve already bought up all the low priced stuff for myself, so rise away!

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Posted by: Schubbcasten.3205

Schubbcasten.3205

Thanks for the Update. Baning Bots is ofc a rly good thing even if itll be never be possible to get rid of all of them. But this also shows a big problem in my opinion. The whole endgame market was depending on those bots. After just one ban wave prices are literally exploding, because the demand is way to high compared to the actual availability. This shows how depending the market is those bots and really is a problem. Mainly this i caused, because the whole GW2 system just wants to prevent people farming (DR, Dungeons only doable once a day etc.) while havin a really high demand of supply. I get the point of doing this to make people actually enjoy the game. Farming and grinding always is and was a boring thing and prevents people from seeing the whole thing and all the details that where put into a game. But such a system cant work while theres such big Gold/Mat sinks like the Mystic forge, soulbound equipment etc. I alrdy put more than 2000 self crafted Greatswords into that sink to hope for a precursor to get a legendary. One player himslef could have never farmed that much materials himself. But since these legendarys are the endgame goal of a lot of people, which means theyll gamble aswell, what leads to a big part of this very high demand. I dont want to complain about precursors and their droprates, this discussion is alrdy goin on for way to long, but what im wondering sometimes is, what were the thoughts of the developers that created this whole system. You want to prevent people from farming, but on the other hand you ask for so much supply to actually play the (end)game.
I dont want to spend ages on cursed shore to get some bones + mithril to craft swords to throw in the forge. This just gets boring. I want to play dungeons and also see the rest of tyria, always havin my legendary in my mind. But the only way so far to get closer to that goal is buying materials from other people (mostly bots probably…) with the gold i get from playing the game. But since all the prices are exploding now this goal gets further and further away. So could you please explain how you thought this should work out? Creating a super high demand while limiting people actually farming their stuff or creating such low drop rates so that it would take years to farm them yourself (lodestones for example) which is smth u dont want people to do. I dont see the logic behind that. In my opinion the rewards that u actually get from playing the game are far to low compared to grinding. Well this is almost the case in every MMO, but i remember you saying that this was one of the big things u wanted to make differently.

My suggestions are that u first should lower the DR. Its punishing more the honest players than the Bots in my opinion. Then maybe rethink the recipes. 50-100 Lodestones would do aswell for a non legendary exotic like volcanos mjolnir etc. It would still be a special weapon that only a few players could actually purchase. And then maybe rethink the whole mystic forge/pre cursor gambling concept. In general its a really good idea to have such a gold sink, but maybe that sink evolves more and more to a blackhole. I would also try to put some more constants into the game. Of course RNG is needed and makes a game exiting, but havin no constants can make it really frustrating aswell. Just as an example the Underworld from GW1 everytime u opened the endchest you atleast got your ekto and cud see the progress in the end. Im missing this here a bit.

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Posted by: WaInut.7128

WaInut.7128

Dungeons only doable once a day etc

Completely false, as dungeons are doable more than once a day. Whether or not a person feels it is worth it to do more than once a day is irrelevant. You will see more people doing dungeons more than once a day as Arenanet applies the fixes they have in mind, which will be improving enemy mechanics and loot tables, and I would not be surprised if they revised the loot tables just a bit in the coming content update.

Arenanet cannot control player behavior, if people only want to do dungeons once a day because of the daily bonus for completing a path the first time, then that’s on the players, not them. If that feature wasn’t there and you could run dungeon paths for 60 tokens every time, everyone would be complaining dungeons are too repetitive because they do them over and over again in the same day.

(edited by WaInut.7128)

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Posted by: Ryoki Hokishami.2756

Ryoki Hokishami.2756

Thank god. I used to make good money farming bloods in frostgorge, and it was fun and varied compared to orr because so many mobs dropped powerful blood. Looks like I can look forward to more frostgorge!

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Posted by: Schubbcasten.3205

Schubbcasten.3205

Dungeons only doable once a day etc

Completely false, as dungeons are doable more than once a day. Whether or not a person feels it is worth it to do more than once a day is irrelevant. You will see more people doing dungeons more than once a day as Arenanet applies the fixes they have in mind, which will be improving enemy mechanics and loot tables, and I would not be surprised if they revised the loot tables just a bit in the coming content update.

Arenanet cannot control player behavior, if people only want to do dungeons once a day because of the daily bonus for completing a path the first time, then that’s on the players, not them. If that feature wasn’t there and you could run dungeon paths for 60 tokens every time, everyone would be complaining dungeons are too repetitive because they do them over and over again in the same day.

Valid point i see it a bit the same way. Just wanted to give a general example of how Anet wants to keep people from doing repetitive stuff by lowering its rewards. I wanted to show with my post more the problematic of their game giving a high demand in items to us players while trying to prevent them gathering them in an efficient and fun way.

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Posted by: Campalishous.9076

Campalishous.9076

Kudos, but….

…clearly we need more areas to get the T6 mats from if bots were having that big of an impact on supply.

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Posted by: ilr.9675

ilr.9675

Glad I bought all my mats when they were still cheap. Thanks for the (albeit kind of predictable) but good news!

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Posted by: Nimraphel.7819

Nimraphel.7819

Kudos, but….

…clearly we need more areas to get the T6 mats from if bots were having that big of an impact on supply.

This. So. Much. This.

Legendaries now got even more problematic than before.

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Posted by: Astraea.6075

Astraea.6075

On the brighter side, it now becomes more profitable to farm those T6 mats…

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Posted by: Echo.7634

Echo.7634

I am inclined to agree with others in that the massive spike in price really highlights the massive shortage or drops/availablility for players.

I mean think about what you need to make a legendary.
Gift of Fortune:
77 Mystic Clovers (about 250 Ectoplasms )
250 Glob of Ectoplasm
Thats almost 500 (Five HUNDRED) exctoplasms.

Gift of Magic:
250 Vial of Powerful Blood
250 Powerful Venom Sacs
250 Elaborate Totems
250 Pile of Crystalline Dust

Gift of Might:
250 Vicious Fangs
250 Armored Scales
250 Vicious Claws
250 Ancient Bones

Not to mention most of the other gifts REQUIRE 250 of the T6 materials as well.

It does’t requre one or two, or twenty or fourty, but FIVE HUNDRED.
HUNDRED (ectoplasms)
And whats the drop rate on powerful blood? maybe (yes MAYBE)1 an hour.
The list of materials is INSANE.

Now, I havent even brought up the absolutly mind boggling material requirements of the other mystic forge recipes.

I Am glad your getting rid of bots.
But lets go back and re-examine what it is that you expect of players and crafting materials for some of these items.

(edited by Echo.7634)

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Posted by: Fyrekisser.6210

Fyrekisser.6210

Aha! I knew something had happened Went to go sell some stuff and T6 mat prices looked like I stepped out of a history book. So glad to see this!

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Posted by: John Smith

Previous

John Smith

The price spike doesn’t represent a shortage, it represents prices returning to where they should be without bots. This change creates more opportunity for players playing the game to earn money. The oversupply the bots created hurt the legitimate producers of items. As the prices go up, more real players will enter the market.

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Posted by: Nimraphel.7819

Nimraphel.7819

The price spike doesn’t represent a shortage, it represents prices returning to where they should be without bots. This change creates more opportunity for players playing the game to earn money. The oversupply the bots created hurt the legitimate producers of items. As the prices go up, more real players will enter the market.

This still doesn’t adress the ridiculous situation of legendaries highlighted above. While it’s becoming more profitable from a seller’s perspective, it is now more than ever nigh-impossible to craft a legendary. In sum, it’s a hellish market from a buyer’s perspective because even with the most optimal approach, gold/hour is still averaging at 1½-2½ at most from farming due to DR. And I am being generous here.

I think there is a serious need to re-examine what you want from this game. I can appreciate the TP and the market from a purely economic perspective, but that’s an occupational hazard; from a purely gaming perspective, we are a long, long, long shot away from anything even resembling fun.

As it is right now you might as well make a disclaimer whenever a new person hits level 80: “Do not bother with legendaries unless you are unemployed and got 10 hours/day for half a year. Oh and by the way, you should play the TP if you want money unless you belong to aforementioned demographic. Don’t like it? Tough luck.”

(edited by Nimraphel.7819)

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Posted by: Fozee.1083

Fozee.1083

Lol… manipulating droprates/salvage rates/whatever else to combat bots.

The war is already lost..

That is not AT ALL what has happened. The sudden loss of many botters is causing the prices of things to go back to what they should.

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Posted by: Snow.5269

Snow.5269

I apologize for the lack of current details. What I can currently say about this topic is that
we’ve recently begun a renewed campaign against RMT and Bots. The change in these markets is a direct result of the success of that campaign.

You can expect to see more details coming out within the next couple of weeks.

John does this mean players who have been purchasing gold from 3rd party sites will also be banned? They are just as responsible for bots as the bots themselves.

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Posted by: Fozee.1083

Fozee.1083

I don’t see any serious issue with the market. The prices will simply get more reasonable as the value of gold shoots back up. The prices wouldn’t be high and the items wouldn’t be on the market if people couldn’t reasonably get the money or materials, so I wholly disagree with that argument.

Getting very nice things is not meant to be accomplished right away and with supreme ease. It’s going to take time and patience, and you have a long time to do it. There’s no need to get a legendary in the first couple of months and then quit because of “lack of content”.

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Posted by: Nimraphel.7819

Nimraphel.7819

I need to point out that seeing bots while I was playing the game is a very unpleasant experience. Bots could break down the economy system by rising item price

On the contrary, they were the reason you could acquire cheap materials. Right now prices are soaring because the primary suppliers have been banned. If you thought prices were high before, you’re in for a rude awakening. Several commodities have risen over 500%.

and cut human players’ profit.

Before we bought stuff cheap and sold stuff cheap. Now we buy stuff expensive and sell stuff expensive. Primary difference is that right now people who need to primarily acquire materials (for instance the people going for Legendary weapon) have to either pay a higher price or farm for even longer (on top of an already inhumane RNG grindfest).

Besides bots, GW2 is such an amazing game: nice graphic, good story line, world events , helping neighbor, and so on. So if you guys don’t what this game get ruined, please be strict on bots.

Honestly, take a step back and put yourself into perspective, no offence meant… But you’re not the norm if you’re as “no life” as you describe. The normal player will not have the same investment into the game as you have and likely not ever accumulate considerable wealth as you might be able to due to your excessive time-investment. For the average player (= the majority), the prices has skyrocketed out of proportions due to the bots being banned.

The bots ensured materials. Right now market prices rise to a level that is ridiculously high for the average player. "Yeah, go grind Cursed Shore karma events for 5 hours, you’ll be able to buy 25-30 Vial of Powerful Blood – only 225-220 left for legendary! (… plus another bunch of now-excessively expensive materials).

Anet is medieval in their handling of this. Right now the market is extremely volatile, particularly to newly dinged 80 players, and the soaring of prices will only lead to one thing: harder entry-barrier for newly dinged people. They will have a harder time buying materials, they will have a harder time crafting etc etc…

The drop-rate of some items – namely Charged Lodestones and to a lesser extent the other lodestones as well as the T6 materials – need to be upped. Right now they only exacerbate the problems with the TP and game, and particularly the legendary-situation that so desperately needs resolution (unless it’s intended that the average player would have to spend 1 year+ to acquire it – again a medieval notion although they should of course retain rarity).

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Posted by: Rainsoul Moonmourne.9743

Rainsoul Moonmourne.9743

market prices are almost back to when they were when bots werent there….that was…unexpected!!
But dont mistake me, this is GREAT!!!

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Posted by: Nimraphel.7819

Nimraphel.7819

Getting very nice things is not meant to be accomplished right away and with supreme ease. It’s going to take time and patience, and you have a long time to do it. There’s no need to get a legendary in the first couple of months and then quit because of “lack of content”.

This is not what anyone is saying. A friend and I are soon posting a legendary guide in which we describe how we’re acquiring 2x Sunrise in less than a month – but that is through playing the TP excessively and being ridiculously lucky with the MF.

Right now some people with legendaries acquired them early due to exploitation. They got it early. A normal, average player may not be intended to acquire a legendary. However, right now the entry-barrier for legendaries is nigh-insurmountable.
Take Sunrise: 350~g for precursor, 250~g for Charged Lodestones, 100g for Jormag Stones, 90~g for 500 Ectoplasms, 125-150g for all T6 fine materials, 75~g for all Orichalcum + other ores + Cured Leather…. We are already at roughly 1000 gold.
Assuming an average player, through time, averages at 3 hours a day (might be high considering we’re talking every single day average, but let’s roll with it). He makes 1 gold/hour average (after all, he will have to farm AC exp, 500 BoH, World Exploration etc). 3 Gold/Day means he will be done in little less than a year. Chances are he will have to spend even longer time. Most of it farming the same repetitive events over and over and over ad nauseum in Orr.

Do you honestly believe that is a viable design in any conceivable way anno 2012? Do you honestly think people will retain interest through such a journey? Do you honestly believe people will continue to put up with wildly fluctuating markets, mystic forge RNG that more often than not will rob like you a slot-machine?

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Posted by: monepipi.5160

monepipi.5160

@Nimraphel.7819

well duh, a casual player shouldnt be able to get a legendary within months. IF thats the case, everyone will be running around with a legendary. Then they wouldn’t be legendary anymore, would they? a newly dinged 80 shouldn’t even be looking at legendaries, but rather normal rares and exotics. Its not like legendaries have any more stats than exotics, they are a want rather than a need. Nobody is forcing anyone to go after legendaries.

Please keep legendaries exclusive, tyvm.

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Posted by: Thrognar.4186

Thrognar.4186

Some very good points and reasonable suggestions have already been made above. The bots provided the supply to meet the demand from max-leveled characters, whether they be garbage rares for the mystic forge or crafting materials for exotics. With this supply gone, prices have already gone up and will continue to rise as demand builds. This is great news for people who like to farm, as their profits will be greater for now, but this is just the tip of the iceberg. The math says that if 12S garbage rares result in 150-300G precursors, 17S garbage rares will soon cause an proportional adjustment in precursor prices as well. And it doesn’t stop there either, as other commodities will also catch up in price as well. If I have to pay more for an item, I have to sell my own items for more. It’s all relative.

I can understand if players want to farm for a Legendary Skin, because they are truly optional and don’t affect gameplay. Yes, the cost to build one is excessive, but it’s still a personal choice to pursue that particular endgame objective. On the other hand, I feel that a full set of exotics for a level 80 character is absolutely essential. It is required to stay competitive in WvW, dungeons, and improve overall playability. Throw in a full set of superior runes and sigils as well, and you could be running into a significant financial barrier for many players. The price increases of crafting materials directly influence the cost of obtaining end-game exotic gear. Fewer garbage rares, lodestones, and fine crafting materials will result in decreased supply of ectoplasm, runes, sigils, and exotics. This obviously doesn’t affect the hardcore players as much, since they will farm items to sell at inflated prices if they have to, but hits the casuals the hardest since they are on a fixed income of event rewards and vendor trash. I mean, seriously, who does higher prices hurt more, the Cursed Shore farmer who sells his proportionally priced rares at the TP, or the casual player who earns 1S 98C from selling the green item to the game vendor?

In the end, Mr. Smith indicates that we get one result from the loss of bots: the rise of more player farmers, hardcore and casual alike. Veterans will need to farm for their ambitious legendaries, and newly minted 80’s will need to farm for their competitive gear. Really? ANET wants more farmers? Are we are simply replacing bot farmers with player farmers, and all the while the price hikes will be felt across every aspect of the game, from eggs to ectoplasm? At least the bots didn’t increase demand. Is this a reversal in ideology, where farming is now definitely required of any player who wants to be competitive. I thought we could be competitive without grinding too much, if at all –wasn’t that what was originally advertised?

Despite what I just read, I still believe this is a supply problem, amplified by the ambitious and taxing requirements needed for building end-game gear (legendary or othewise), that was once alleviated by bots. Without increasing greater supply, or reducing demand, prices will continue to rise, and a vicious inflationary cycle continues. But, are people going to stop throwing rares into the mystic forge? No, but when they pull out a garbage exotic, they’ll sell it at a price proportional to how much the ingredients cost. Therefore, you can’t limit demand and the only other option is to fix the supply issue. While the idea to lessen the effect of diminishing returns or delay the effect of diminishing returns would help, that just further encourages grinding and farming. Even better would be a revamped loot table to allow for increased fine material and rare/exotic drops, such that casuals and semi-hardcore players would not have to rely so much on the trading post to get their materials. Having higher priced materials on the trading post doesn’t address the fundamental issue of low supply, it just makes everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, cost more. This doesn’t hurt player farmers, it hurts everyone else, especially the casuals, newly-minted 80’s, and especially the people who bought gems with real money. Their cash/gems/gold now has less buying power.

C’mon ANET, we’re happy you got rid of the bots, but please fix the supply problem too.

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Posted by: Nimraphel.7819

Nimraphel.7819

@Nimraphel.7819

well duh, a casual player shouldnt be able to get a legendary within months. IF thats the case, everyone will be running around with a legendary. Then they wouldn’t be legendary anymore, would they? a newly dinged 80 shouldn’t even be looking at legendaries, but rather normal rares and exotics. Its not like legendaries have any more stats than exotics, they are a want rather than a need. Nobody is forcing anyone to go after legendaries.

Please keep legendaries exclusive, tyvm.

You obviously didn’t pay attention to what I wrote.

I said that the average player wasn’t the intended target for a legendary BUT that the currenty entry-barrier for legendaries is obnoxiously high, even for the most dedicated no-lifer.

And I would hardly say that a guy averaging 3 hours/day every single day is casual. Far from it. He would be amongst the segment that should definitely have a shot at legendaries; 3 hours/day/365 days a year is not compatible with serious studies, family, career, work or whatever. It’s unsustainable. The hypothetical guy in my example would be a prime candidate for a legendary over considerable time. Considerable time, however, is not one year. As I said it’s an unsustainable model, particularly when alot of people exploited MF to acquire precursors early.

Right now, however, abovestated guy won’t have a regular shot at it. The entry barrier is so high he might as well not try, as it all hinges on MF luck and a volatile market.
Besides, how would you describe Average Joe playing 1 day/week who gets lucky and acquires a precursor? He could have just dinged 80 and acquired it. He might even – gosh, I know, it’s hard to fathom – be a casual player. Wow. Oh well, you’ve dictated he’s not the audience, so uhm… Yeah. Legendaries are skill and dedication y’know? Oh wait

You should reread what I wrote; would save you the time writing banalities and I wouldn’t have to endure repetition.

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Posted by: monepipi.5160

monepipi.5160

Some very good points and reasonable suggestions have already been made above. The bots provided the supply to meet the demand from max-leveled characters, whether they be garbage rares for the mystic forge or crafting materials for exotics. With this supply gone, prices have already gone up and will continue to rise as demand builds. This is great news for people who like to farm, as their profits will be greater for now, but this is just the tip of the iceberg. The math says that if 12S garbage rares result in 150-300G precursors, 17S garbage rares will soon cause an proportional adjustment in precursor prices as well. And it doesn’t stop there either, as other commodities will also catch up in price as well. If I have to pay more for an item, I have to sell my own items for more. It’s all relative.

I can understand if players want to farm for a Legendary Skin, because they are truly optional and don’t affect gameplay. Yes, the cost to build one is excessive, but it’s still a personal choice to pursue that particular endgame objective. On the other hand, I feel that a full set of exotics for a level 80 character is absolutely essential. It is required to stay competitive in WvW, dungeons, and improve overall playability. Throw in a full set of superior runes and sigils as well, and you could be running into a significant financial barrier for many players. The price increases of crafting materials directly influence the cost of obtaining end-game exotic gear. Fewer garbage rares, lodestones, and fine crafting materials will result in decreased supply of ectoplasm, runes, sigils, and exotics. This obviously doesn’t affect the hardcore players as much, since they will farm items to sell at inflated prices if they have to, but hits the casuals the hardest since they are on a fixed income of event rewards and vendor trash. I mean, seriously, who does higher prices hurt more, the Cursed Shore farmer who sells his proportionally priced rares at the TP, or the casual player who earns 1S 98C from selling the green item to the game vendor?

In the end, Mr. Smith indicates that we get one result from the loss of bots: the rise of more player farmers, hardcore and casual alike. Veterans will need to farm for their ambitious legendaries, and newly minted 80’s will need to farm for their competitive gear. Really? ANET wants more farmers? Are we are simply replacing bot farmers with player farmers, and all the while the price hikes will be felt across every aspect of the game, from eggs to ectoplasm? At least the bots didn’t increase demand. Is this a reversal in ideology, where farming is now definitely required of any player who wants to be competitive. I thought we could be competitive without grinding too much, if at all –wasn’t that what was originally advertised?

Despite what I just read, I still believe this is a supply problem, amplified by the ambitious and taxing requirements needed for building end-game gear (legendary or othewise), that was once alleviated by bots. Without increasing greater supply, or reducing demand, prices will continue to rise, and a vicious inflationary cycle continues. But, are people going to stop throwing rares into the mystic forge? No, but when they pull out a garbage exotic, they’ll sell it at a price proportional to how much the ingredients cost. Therefore, you can’t limit demand and the only other option is to fix the supply issue. While the idea to lessen the effect of diminishing returns or delay the effect of diminishing returns would help, that just further encourages grinding and farming. Even better would be a revamped loot table to allow for increased fine material and rare/exotic drops, such that casuals and semi-hardcore players would not have to rely so much on the trading post to get their materials. Having higher priced materials on the trading post doesn’t address the fundamental issue of low supply, it just makes everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, cost more. This doesn’t hurt player farmers, it hurts everyone else, especially the casuals, newly-minted 80’s, and especially the people who bought gems with real money. Their cash/gems/gold now has less buying power.

C’mon ANET, we’re happy you got rid of the bots, but please fix the supply problem too.

You don’t need exotics to run a dungeon, or for general PVE. Cheap rares and even greens work, as long as you aren’t a terribly bad player. Run dungeons in rares, get tokens to exchange for exotics, save the gold you’ve earned during the dungeon for your accessories.
Whats the problem? when I first hit 80 I didnt have straight up exotics, I went through dungeons for them. If you are a new player and you’ve just hit 80, and you expect yourself to be immediately decked out in exotics……you’re just pampered.

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Posted by: Nimraphel.7819

Nimraphel.7819

Some very good points and reasonable suggestions have already been made above. The bots provided the supply to meet the demand from max-leveled characters, whether they be garbage rares for the mystic forge or crafting materials for exotics. With this supply gone, prices have already gone up and will continue to rise as demand builds. This is great news for people who like to farm, as their profits will be greater for now, but this is just the tip of the iceberg. The math says that if 12S garbage rares result in 150-300G precursors, 17S garbage rares will soon cause an proportional adjustment in precursor prices as well. And it doesn’t stop there either, as other commodities will also catch up in price as well. If I have to pay more for an item, I have to sell my own items for more. It’s all relative.

I can understand if players want to farm for a Legendary Skin, because they are truly optional and don’t affect gameplay. Yes, the cost to build one is excessive, but it’s still a personal choice to pursue that particular endgame objective. On the other hand, I feel that a full set of exotics for a level 80 character is absolutely essential. It is required to stay competitive in WvW, dungeons, and improve overall playability. Throw in a full set of superior runes and sigils as well, and you could be running into a significant financial barrier for many players. The price increases of crafting materials directly influence the cost of obtaining end-game exotic gear. Fewer garbage rares, lodestones, and fine crafting materials will result in decreased supply of ectoplasm, runes, sigils, and exotics. This obviously doesn’t affect the hardcore players as much, since they will farm items to sell at inflated prices if they have to, but hits the casuals the hardest since they are on a fixed income of event rewards and vendor trash. I mean, seriously, who does higher prices hurt more, the Cursed Shore farmer who sells his proportionally priced rares at the TP, or the casual player who earns 1S 98C from selling the green item to the game vendor?

In the end, Mr. Smith indicates that we get one result from the loss of bots: the rise of more player farmers, hardcore and casual alike. Veterans will need to farm for their ambitious legendaries, and newly minted 80’s will need to farm for their competitive gear. Really? ANET wants more farmers? Are we are simply replacing bot farmers with player farmers, and all the while the price hikes will be felt across every aspect of the game, from eggs to ectoplasm? At least the bots didn’t increase demand. Is this a reversal in ideology, where farming is now definitely required of any player who wants to be competitive. I thought we could be competitive without grinding too much, if at all –wasn’t that what was originally advertised?

Despite what I just read, I still believe this is a supply problem, amplified by the ambitious and taxing requirements needed for building end-game gear (legendary or othewise), that was once alleviated by bots. Without increasing greater supply, or reducing demand, prices will continue to rise, and a vicious inflationary cycle continues. But, are people going to stop throwing rares into the mystic forge? No, but when they pull out a garbage exotic, they’ll sell it at a price proportional to how much the ingredients cost. Therefore, you can’t limit demand and the only other option is to fix the supply issue. While the idea to lessen the effect of diminishing returns or delay the effect of diminishing returns would help, that just further encourages grinding and farming. Even better would be a revamped loot table to allow for increased fine material and rare/exotic drops, such that casuals and semi-hardcore players would not have to rely so much on the trading post to get their materials. Having higher priced materials on the trading post doesn’t address the fundamental issue of low supply, it just makes everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, cost more. This doesn’t hurt player farmers, it hurts everyone else, especially the casuals, newly-minted 80’s, and especially the people who bought gems with real money. Their cash/gems/gold now has less buying power.

C’mon ANET, we’re happy you got rid of the bots, but please fix the supply problem too.

^
This guys gets it. Thank you for a great post.

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Posted by: monepipi.5160

monepipi.5160

@Nimraphel.7819

well duh, a casual player shouldnt be able to get a legendary within months. IF thats the case, everyone will be running around with a legendary. Then they wouldn’t be legendary anymore, would they? a newly dinged 80 shouldn’t even be looking at legendaries, but rather normal rares and exotics. Its not like legendaries have any more stats than exotics, they are a want rather than a need. Nobody is forcing anyone to go after legendaries.

Please keep legendaries exclusive, tyvm.

You obviously didn’t pay attention to what I wrote.

I said that the average player wasn’t the intended target for a legendary BUT that the currenty entry-barrier for legendaries is obnoxiously high, even for the most dedicated no-lifer.

And I would hardly say that a guy averaging 3 hours/day every single day is casual. Far from it. He would be amongst the segment that should definitely have a shot at legendaries; 3 hours/day/365 days a year is not compatible with serious studies, family, career, work or whatever. It’s unsustainable. The hypothetical guy in my example would be a prime candidate for a legendary over considerable time. Considerable time, however, is not one year. As I said it’s an unsustainable model, particularly when alot of people exploited MF to acquire precursors early.

Right now, however, abovestated guy won’t have a regular shot at it. The entry barrier is so high he might as well not try, as it all hinges on MF luck and a volatile market.
Besides, how would you describe Average Joe playing 1 day/week who gets lucky and acquires a precursor? He could have just dinged 80 and acquired it. He might even – gosh, I know, it’s hard to fathom – be a casual player. Wow. Oh well, you’ve dictated he’s not the audience, so uhm… Yeah. Legendaries are skill and dedication y’know? Oh wait

You should reread what I wrote; would save you the time writing banalities and I wouldn’t have to endure repetition.

Average Joe would still have the rest of the materials to get, he still would not be able to get the legendary in months if he’s casual. My point still stands.

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Posted by: Nimraphel.7819

Nimraphel.7819

@Nimraphel.7819

well duh, a casual player shouldnt be able to get a legendary within months. IF thats the case, everyone will be running around with a legendary. Then they wouldn’t be legendary anymore, would they? a newly dinged 80 shouldn’t even be looking at legendaries, but rather normal rares and exotics. Its not like legendaries have any more stats than exotics, they are a want rather than a need. Nobody is forcing anyone to go after legendaries.

Please keep legendaries exclusive, tyvm.

You obviously didn’t pay attention to what I wrote.

I said that the average player wasn’t the intended target for a legendary BUT that the currenty entry-barrier for legendaries is obnoxiously high, even for the most dedicated no-lifer.

And I would hardly say that a guy averaging 3 hours/day every single day is casual. Far from it. He would be amongst the segment that should definitely have a shot at legendaries; 3 hours/day/365 days a year is not compatible with serious studies, family, career, work or whatever. It’s unsustainable. The hypothetical guy in my example would be a prime candidate for a legendary over considerable time. Considerable time, however, is not one year. As I said it’s an unsustainable model, particularly when alot of people exploited MF to acquire precursors early.

Right now, however, abovestated guy won’t have a regular shot at it. The entry barrier is so high he might as well not try, as it all hinges on MF luck and a volatile market.
Besides, how would you describe Average Joe playing 1 day/week who gets lucky and acquires a precursor? He could have just dinged 80 and acquired it. He might even – gosh, I know, it’s hard to fathom – be a casual player. Wow. Oh well, you’ve dictated he’s not the audience, so uhm… Yeah. Legendaries are skill and dedication y’know? Oh wait

You should reread what I wrote; would save you the time writing banalities and I wouldn’t have to endure repetition.

Average Joe would still have the rest of the materials to get, he still would not be able to get the legendary in months if he’s casual. My point still stands.

Of course; my point with the example was to show that legendary right now is not solely about dedication and a reasonably large time investment; it’s about luck and an obnoxious time-investment beyond any reason. I doubt you’ll find alot (any?) people willing to grind 3 hours every single day for a full year in order to obtain a legendary. If you think so then I find you deeply disturbing.

Besides, you conveniently ignored everything else – as well as the other post by Thrognar highlighting the problem in a coherent way. I can only assume you have no refutation for that.

(edited by Nimraphel.7819)

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Posted by: monepipi.5160

monepipi.5160

@Nimraphel.7819

well duh, a casual player shouldnt be able to get a legendary within months. IF thats the case, everyone will be running around with a legendary. Then they wouldn’t be legendary anymore, would they? a newly dinged 80 shouldn’t even be looking at legendaries, but rather normal rares and exotics. Its not like legendaries have any more stats than exotics, they are a want rather than a need. Nobody is forcing anyone to go after legendaries.

Please keep legendaries exclusive, tyvm.

You obviously didn’t pay attention to what I wrote.

I said that the average player wasn’t the intended target for a legendary BUT that the currenty entry-barrier for legendaries is obnoxiously high, even for the most dedicated no-lifer.

And I would hardly say that a guy averaging 3 hours/day every single day is casual. Far from it. He would be amongst the segment that should definitely have a shot at legendaries; 3 hours/day/365 days a year is not compatible with serious studies, family, career, work or whatever. It’s unsustainable. The hypothetical guy in my example would be a prime candidate for a legendary over considerable time. Considerable time, however, is not one year. As I said it’s an unsustainable model, particularly when alot of people exploited MF to acquire precursors early.

Right now, however, abovestated guy won’t have a regular shot at it. The entry barrier is so high he might as well not try, as it all hinges on MF luck and a volatile market.
Besides, how would you describe Average Joe playing 1 day/week who gets lucky and acquires a precursor? He could have just dinged 80 and acquired it. He might even – gosh, I know, it’s hard to fathom – be a casual player. Wow. Oh well, you’ve dictated he’s not the audience, so uhm… Yeah. Legendaries are skill and dedication y’know? Oh wait

You should reread what I wrote; would save you the time writing banalities and I wouldn’t have to endure repetition.

Average Joe would still have the rest of the materials to get, he still would not be able to get the legendary in months if he’s casual. My point still stands.

Of course; my point with the example was to show that legendary right now is not solely about dedication and a reasonably large time investment; it’s about luck and an obnoxious time-investment.

Besides, you conveniently ignored everything else – as well as the other post by Thrognar highlighting the problem in a coherent way. I can only assume you have no refutation for that.

Legendaries are OPTIONAL. They are only for the rich and dedicated. No, 3hrs a day is still fairly semi casual. There are people who play for 16 hrs a day. If you can’t afford the dedication they aren’t for you. Period.

Can only afford to spend 3hrs/day? You can still have your legendary, you just need to keep at it for a longer time. Don’t have the patience? well then don’t try. Legendaries are meant as a long-term goal, something to work on when you have the time.

Personally I’m not even aiming for them.

(edited by monepipi.5160)

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Posted by: Linkent.7416

Linkent.7416

Really hope Anet can do something to reward who play this game fully..
I have done all jumping puzzle.. Gonna get all explorer and soon dungeon master..
Even put some effort to kegmaster.. I have the highest achievement point in my guild without spamming salvaging for these point..

But my gold is much lesser than someone i know who is botting or others who is buying gold..
The legendary imo should be something you challenge yourself to get..
Not something fully depend on how much gold you have..

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Posted by: Raege.1069

Raege.1069

My question is. Has Anet thought about how this is affecting WvWrs? WvW, in my experience, almost never drops any of T6 mats (or anything else that is needed for Legendary), which are now rising in price rapidly. I’m in a WvW guild and I already see some of our members farming Orr instead of WvWing because it’s simply impossible to afford a legendary as a WvW player if you want it in less than a year. How about making us able to buy ectos and t6 mats with Badges of Honor or something?

Banning bots is good, making people who don’t PvE farm 24/7 be in huge economical disadvantage is not.

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Posted by: Romerio.8763

Romerio.8763

How can you hope to have a functional economy when the hand of god can just sweep across it and change everything?

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Posted by: TravisTrout.6803

TravisTrout.6803

Oh, so that’s why fine crafting materials (300+) are suddenly twice as expensive. I should have filled my bank when they went below 20c.

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Posted by: Veldan.4637

Veldan.4637

Thanks for the update! To me it was obvious that this was gonna happen, cause if I get 2-3 materials per hour in farming, then if they are going at minimum prices on the TP there is definitely something wrong :P

I have personally bought all the materials I still needed for gifts of might/magic right after I saw that prices started to rise, and will now enjoy that I can actually make some money with those rare drops, rather than 20 copper that it used to be

To all the people QQing about legendary prices: in GW1 you had rare materials too. Ectos, shards, rubies, sapphires… they were somewhat hard to obtain, rare, and expensive. That didn’t stop people from getting their obsidian / vabbian armors. The same thing you can see in GW2 already, people go for legendaries even though it’s expensive. The only difference seems to be that GW2 has official forums, and therefore people feel the need to whine about it all the time….

(edited by Veldan.4637)

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Posted by: penatbater.4710

penatbater.4710

Should’ve invested in thoste mats before they rose in price x.x

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Posted by: Dredge.6875

Dredge.6875

@Nimraphel.7819

well duh, a casual player shouldnt be able to get a legendary within months. IF thats the case, everyone will be running around with a legendary. Then they wouldn’t be legendary anymore, would they? a newly dinged 80 shouldn’t even be looking at legendaries, but rather normal rares and exotics. Its not like legendaries have any more stats than exotics, they are a want rather than a need. Nobody is forcing anyone to go after legendaries.

Please keep legendaries exclusive, tyvm.

You obviously didn’t pay attention to what I wrote.

I said that the average player wasn’t the intended target for a legendary BUT that the currenty entry-barrier for legendaries is obnoxiously high, even for the most dedicated no-lifer.

And I would hardly say that a guy averaging 3 hours/day every single day is casual. Far from it. He would be amongst the segment that should definitely have a shot at legendaries; 3 hours/day/365 days a year is not compatible with serious studies, family, career, work or whatever. It’s unsustainable. The hypothetical guy in my example would be a prime candidate for a legendary over considerable time. Considerable time, however, is not one year. As I said it’s an unsustainable model, particularly when alot of people exploited MF to acquire precursors early.

Right now, however, abovestated guy won’t have a regular shot at it. The entry barrier is so high he might as well not try, as it all hinges on MF luck and a volatile market.
Besides, how would you describe Average Joe playing 1 day/week who gets lucky and acquires a precursor? He could have just dinged 80 and acquired it. He might even – gosh, I know, it’s hard to fathom – be a casual player. Wow. Oh well, you’ve dictated he’s not the audience, so uhm… Yeah. Legendaries are skill and dedication y’know? Oh wait

You should reread what I wrote; would save you the time writing banalities and I wouldn’t have to endure repetition.

Average Joe would still have the rest of the materials to get, he still would not be able to get the legendary in months if he’s casual. My point still stands.

Of course; my point with the example was to show that legendary right now is not solely about dedication and a reasonably large time investment; it’s about luck and an obnoxious time-investment.

Besides, you conveniently ignored everything else – as well as the other post by Thrognar highlighting the problem in a coherent way. I can only assume you have no refutation for that.

Legendaries are OPTIONAL. They are only for the rich and dedicated. No, 3hrs a day is still fairly semi casual. There are people who play for 16 hrs a day. If you can’t afford the dedication they aren’t for you. Period.

Can only afford to spend 3hrs/day? You can still have your legendary, you just need to keep at it for a longer time. Don’t have the patience? well then don’t try. Legendaries are meant as a long-term goal, something to work on when you have the time.

Personally I’m not even aiming for them.

I completely agree with this guy. I play 2 or 3 hours a day and I’m not upset in the least that it might take me “forever” to get a legendary. They are basically one of each weapon skin (greatswords obviously the exception). There are hundreds of awesome skins out there I can be very happy with.

What would you do if you weren’t grinding for a legendary? If the answer is “not play” then you might want to decide if a zero stat increase cosmetic upgrade is worth that investment.

(edited by Dredge.6875)

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Posted by: Darmikau.9413

Darmikau.9413

So now legendaries are going back to being completely unaffordable. Neato.

It’s a shame, I was finally looking at getting ready to try for Sunrise.

Please do something about this – the prices are through the roof – even in hardcore farm mode you’d have to farm every waking hour of the day for months to earn a legendary.

Right now the only players with them are people who either got in super early, played the market, exploited, or a got a crud ton of donations.

I’m guessing the amount of legitimately farmed out legendaries in the game is less than 5. It’s really sad that the only players being awarded “legendary” status are those who have either exploited, or played the market instead of the game.

We really need ways to earn them that are based on our in-game achievements, not how much time we sat and farmed the only viable farm zone, Cursed Shore – which at the current prices is adding up to months.

If you’re really okay with T6 mats at these prices, then the price of the precursors and items like lodestones need to come down. They were nowhere near this expensive pre-T6 crash.

I understand wanting to make long-term goals. But when “long term” actually means “grinding the most profitable zone in the game for 10 hours a day, every day, for 5 months” you’re not really giving players much of a sense of achievement. If your plan was for legendaries to take years, then you’re out of your mind, because someone would have to be insane to go for a carrot that takes more than a year to get. There’s such a ridiculously high discount rate on that kind of investment.

(edited by Darmikau.9413)

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Posted by: Ping.5739

Ping.5739

@Nimraphel.7819

Your point completely base on “every one should be able to get a legendary relatively easily”, which, in fact, is not a reasonable opinion. If every one could get a legendary easily then it is not a “legendary”. In my opinion, legendary is the reward from people “helping” the game world in a daily basis for a certain period of time. “Helping” means that people will killing creatures, aiding NPCs, and gathering materials. In this mean, people will get loot and influence and raw materials from their daily output. For the other side, those so called causal players, who don’t want to invest the time of crafting a legendary, should not get one. There should also be a bond between the legendary and a player, which could only be constructed by investing time.

I totally agree that the drop rate is low and the bar for 80 is high. But let’s think in another way: if the price decreases dramatically, there will not be so much different between a player who reached 80 two month ago and a player who reach just a week ago. By decreasing the price(allowing the bot), it also encourages RMT since when people saw they could get everything they want with only a little amount of dollar. In this way, I agree with your point to certain extent: the price should be cut, or the drop rate should be increases, but not dramatically. This could make the guy who is investing 3 hours everyday get the legendary relatively quick.

If I invested my time in farming, I should get well paid. Thrognar.4186 points out this really well.

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

(Quotes not working, so this is addressed to Nimraphel)

“And I would hardly say that a guy averaging 3 hours/day every single day is casual. Far from it. He would be amongst the segment that should definitely have a shot at legendaries; 3 hours/day/365 days a year is not compatible with serious studies, family, career, work or whatever. It’s unsustainable. The hypothetical guy in my example would be a prime candidate for a legendary over considerable time. Considerable time, however, is not one year.”

I actually see things differently. I expect that ANet intended Legendaries to be items that players could obtain over the course of SEVERAL years. Guild Wars 1 had a lifetime for over 7 years; I fully expect GW2 to last for the same amount of time, if not more. In that timeline, Legendaries are probably items that your average player, playing 1 – 2 hours a day for 3 – 4 years, could definitely afford if they saved up with a mind to working towards a specific Legendary. ANet probably didn’t expect people to have Legendaries within 2 months of the game’s release. (Perhaps it was poor design, perhaps it was people exploiting the market, or perhaps it was people buying gold from gold sellers, but I’ll refrain from going too much into it since that’s not really what this thread is about.)

As some other threads have pointed out, not all Legendaries are created equal. I think somebody created his Legendary (I think it might have been Kraitkin?) for a fraction of the cost it would have taken him to make Sunrise. People who simply wanted the medal for their account could follow a similar route.

All that said, I do agree with you that the question of supply probably needs to be looked at. If the demand for T6 mats for Legendaries is so great that it’s pricing people who want the materials for other reasons (like armor crafting) out of the market, then drop rates need to be tweaked.

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

Recent market shift is about the economy as a whole 10 people get on their soap boxes about precursors and legendaries being expensive. They where expensive before they are expensive now. Throwing omg the Gift x is more exkittenve now its always been expensive even at dirt cheap prices.

Now this thread has turned to people crying about legendaries when thats not what this thread is really about. I know somebody will point to the price of the precursor going up but those prices always rise and fall.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

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Posted by: Darmikau.9413

Darmikau.9413

but those prices always rise and fall.

You mean just rise. Dusk, Dawn, Legend, and others have never become cheaper.

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Posted by: LuckyCats.3189

LuckyCats.3189

Im beating myself blue and yellow because I sold a lot of stuff..
and now a few days later their price have doubled.
It burns anet T_T

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

but those prices always rise and fall.

You mean just rise. Dusk, Dawn, Legend, and others have never become cheaper.

I mean fluctuate. Dusk was 444 a few days ago last I checked there was 1 listed for 375.

also there are more than 3 precursors in the game too.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
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Posted by: mexay.3902

mexay.3902

There is a big problem here:

You can’t actually make money in the game.

Seriously, it’s just not possible. In GW1, you could run UW and FoW and DoA and Urgoz and all that stuff. You could run the elite areas… and it was fun.

Guild Wars 2 just doesn’t have that. If I wanted, I could run heaps and heaps of FoW runs and ACTUALLY GET RICH or have enough money to purchase highend items.

GW2 lacks this. Money making has come down to farm 1 or 2 events in Cursed Shore, which is a problem, because the more people farming it, the less money you make. GW2 just needs a better system to make money.

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Posted by: Novalight.7568

Novalight.7568

There is a big problem here:

You can’t actually make money in the game.

Seriously, it’s just not possible. In GW1, you could run UW and FoW and DoA and Urgoz and all that stuff. You could run the elite areas… and it was fun.

Guild Wars 2 just doesn’t have that. If I wanted, I could run heaps and heaps of FoW runs and ACTUALLY GET RICH or have enough money to purchase highend items.

GW2 lacks this. Money making has come down to farm 1 or 2 events in Cursed Shore, which is a problem, because the more people farming it, the less money you make. GW2 just needs a better system to make money.

Or more supply of some things and less moneysinks that hit the people that don’t farm like brainless monkeys 90% of their gametime. If you do stuff that’s fun (I’m disregarding the masochists that think farming for hours and hours every day is fun) you’re at a money loss (specially true in WvW if you buy siege a lot and play a semi-suicidal melee) or very minor profit.
Anyway, everyone defines fun their own way, but if there’s people quitting coz of boring repetitive farming, unrewarding instances, RNG, DR and what not, all is not well in the land of Tyria. And I’ve seen a quite a few ppl quit by now unfortunately.

As for the market shifts. Say hi to insider information, the traders god.

“GW2 takes everything you love about GW1” – M. O’Brien
“We just don’t want players to grind in GW2” – C. Johanson
“The most important thing in any game should be the player” – R. Soesbee

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Posted by: Vilkata.4725

Vilkata.4725

The way I see it, if the bots were skewing the market that much it probably meant the devs couldn’t get reliable data. Without reliable data they were probably hesitant to adjust the drop rates in any big ways. I’m hopeful that if the bots can be reduced to the point where they’re not a significant factor, and kept that way, we’ll see some targeted adjustments to some of the drop rates.

Unfortunately that will take some time.

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Posted by: defi.4127

defi.4127

There is a big problem here:
You can’t actually make money in the game.
Seriously, it’s just not possible. In GW1, you could run UW and FoW and DoA and Urgoz and all that stuff. You could run the elite areas… and it was fun.
Guild Wars 2 just doesn’t have that. If I wanted, I could run heaps and heaps of FoW runs and ACTUALLY GET RICH or have enough money to purchase highend items.
GW2 lacks this. Money making has come down to farm 1 or 2 events in Cursed Shore, which is a problem, because the more people farming it, the less money you make. GW2 just needs a better system to make money.

So running dungeons is different from running FoW/UW how exactly? You get a steady 26K after a first run plus all the item and potential money drops from Champion/Legendary mobs (you can get 16s from a Legendary’s corpse), there are numerous dungeon paths. I really doubt you did more than 2-3 full runs a day in DoA, unless you only did Shadow Form runs in FoW/UW and call that fun.

All I’m saying is that you are absolutely wrong in your claim that you can’t make money in this game (and I’m not even talking about playing the TP/flipping), you can even make money with crafting despite many people claiming you can’t. So please don’t stamp your own ineptitude on the game.

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Posted by: Colbear.6425

Colbear.6425

I think the whole point of banning bots is that they weren’t supposed to be there in the first place.

This also has the benefit that killing monsters for loot is worthwhile again. If you farmed Orr event chains each time, you’d get the silver as a reward and the silver for vendoring all your drops. Aside from the occasional rare, pretty much everything else would be worth 50c at best, maybe 1s if you’re lucky.

Now, you can make gold by murderating things in Frostgorge for their blood or scales or totems. Or by doing highlevel dungeons and killing the mobs and getting drops that are actually worth something again.

How many hours of farming do you think a precursor should be worth? Before, they seemed to be worth 150-300 hours, assuming 1-2g/hr running plinx (for a Dusk because no one cares about the other precursor prices).

Do you still want them to be worth 150-300 hours? If so, and you can get 2-3g per hour farming fine mats now, then Dusk should go up in price to 450-600g.

Or do you want it to take less time now?

Charged lodestones, since they weren’t affected by the price change because bots didn’t farm them, should now cost maybe an hour of farming instead of two hours. That makes them effectively cheaper unless your primary source of income is playing the market or, uh… doing other things that don’t involve killing mobs.

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Posted by: LadyRhonwyn.2501

LadyRhonwyn.2501

The way I see it, if the bots were skewing the market that much it probably meant the devs couldn’t get reliable data. Without reliable data they were probably hesitant to adjust the drop rates in any big ways. I’m hopeful that if the bots can be reduced to the point where they’re not a significant factor, and kept that way, we’ll see some targeted adjustments to some of the drop rates.

Unfortunately that will take some time.

Didn’t they already change the loot table based on the market? (I remember something with butter…)

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Posted by: Cyrus.8261

Cyrus.8261

I’m confident that ArenaNet will makes loot drop adjustments if the market stabilizes at prices that make any crafting or acquiring rares/exotics prohibitive for casual players with their new level 80s. They are the norm, not those of you who drop 100 exotics in the Mystic Toilet every week because you decided you HAVE to have a Legendary.

The DR system may see a drastic relaxing when ANet has reducing the RMTs/botters far enough that they can’t flood the market anymore. It won’t go away, but you’d have to farm much longer before noticing any reduction.