Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: Robert Hrouda.1327

Robert Hrouda.1327

Content Designer

Next

Discuss the new patch for 9/25 here.

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Posted by: frOst.2198

frOst.2198

Overall score: bad

Discussion and response to actions taken:

1) Dungeon tokens are now rewarded at the end of an explorable chain.
So what about all the work that goes into reaching the end? What happens if someone has to leave, or your group falls apart? You get nothing? Did you even think of things like this? I have to believe no thought at all goes into these design decisions.
—-

2) Dungeons reward 20 tokens for completion and now reward an additional 40 tokens for the first time they are completed each day.
This should be in addition to what you receive in chests.
—-

3) Dungeon tokens should be account bound. This will allow players to have a single character farm tokens for their other characters.
Doesn’t affect me. Good for some people though, im sure. Now, once you have your gear, you can run with friends and not be wasting time.
—-

4) This week, we’re updating the system to not impact clearing different chains of the same dungeon. We’ll continue to evaluate this system in coming weeks.
Great that youre working out bugs..but they shouldn’t be there to begin with. TEST YOUR PATCHES, and not on US.
—-

You are simply not addressing the actual problem.

Dungeon design is poor on every account except, imo, the minigame portions (diffuse bombs).

Boss fights have no hint of strategy. If you DID build a strategy, you did so by simply picking one moveset shared between a group and built an entire 10-15 minute boss fight around it. This is a horrible way of doing it because it severely limits customization and forces players into a playstyle they don’t want.

Stick to telegraphed attacks, red circles on the ground, and terrain. Stick to condition removal, kiting, and LOS. That is what your combat system promotes. I don’t know what the heck youre doing now, but it doesn’t work.

Regarding rewards. As I said above, the fact that you aren’t giving us any until completion is flat out absurd, especially with the artificially inflated HP pools of most mobs and the amount of time it now requires to beat these dungeons.

You need to provide rewards throughout the dungeon

1) All dungeon mobs have % chance to drop a token
2) Bosses/Chest have a % chance to drop an actual dungeon item

There, suddenly everyone doesn’t mind killing what theyre supposed to.

(edited by frOst.2198)

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Posted by: Akinari.4120

Akinari.4120

Just did TA; First run of the day and got 45 tokens ….

I don’t think the patch is fully working as intended, any insights ?

edit: I also got a lv 53 short bow from the chest, I thought gear should have been level appropriate at your own char level. ( me being 80 ).

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(edited by Akinari.4120)

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Posted by: Lodgeinator.1845

Lodgeinator.1845

It would be nice to test out the new rewards but we are having the same instancing problem that occurred at the games launch. We cannot get a party into a dungeon.

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Posted by: Future.8641

Future.8641

Just did CM dungeon with 4 other guys. All 3 paths.

Personally, I got 60 tokens per run, which works as intended, but the other guys seemed to get either 45, 15, 30. Not one of them had done the paths already (today).

One person even got 2 tokens for completing a path.

Another thing: It didn’t update the Explorer Achievement correctly. I’ve done story mode + the three passages, and the achievement states 3/4 paths taken.

“I greet you like the sun greets the morning.” – Kodan

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Posted by: demonic corn.2187

demonic corn.2187

I got excited while reading the changes. Running all the paths to maximize rewards will definitely alleviate the “grind” feeling of dungeons. I just hope the rewards are working as the patch notes say.

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Posted by: Collects.4261

Collects.4261

CoE here did all 3 runs for 60 tokens each.

Then repeated the submarine 2 times.

1st time i got 20 tokens.
2nd time i got 10 tokens.

Is this a bug or working as intended?

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Posted by: fortytwo.3485

fortytwo.3485

Ability to earn 180 tokens from 3 runs is superb, thnx for listening

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Posted by: Venomlaced.8273

Venomlaced.8273

I love the game its is a step up from every game I have played to this point but I feel the same level of frustration as when I quit playing Guild Wars 1. The powers that be know that people are using certain game mechanics to move ahead you start to see a trend and you don’t like it. You spend time in meetings and sending emails to each other and then finally you decide to go ahead and nerf something in your game. During this time other people in the community have spent time money and effort to level and equip there characters to do what everyone else had been doing.

So my point is this if you don’t like something in your game get off your butts and act swiftly to correct it. Don’t let hundreds of thousands of players do something before you decide to make a change or act because thats not fair to the rest of us and it seems like being fair is something that is important to you.

Right now how many level 80 players used the dungeon mechanic to level their characters? I know its a lot because everyone I talked to told me that was the way to level your character.

As to why anyone would want to level quickly and not spend time in the story. I came to the game a little late with the guild that I was part of in GW1. They all have 70+ level characters and they want me to get there quickly so I can participate in the events that they are participating in. It is not that I want to skip content it is that I need to be closer to their levels so I can participate in the events that make a guild what it is, a family. What is the point of being in a guild if you can not do things together?

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Posted by: Xandman.4583

Xandman.4583

skipping pve for now, 3hours in COF path1 no luck, 3hours in arah no luck either. I thought gw2 wasn’t going to be like wow where you need to be in a dungeon for more than 3 hours just to complete it. 20 tokens just isn’t worth 3hours.

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Posted by: Brutal Arts.6307

Brutal Arts.6307

Dungeons are still filled with trash mobs that serve no purpose but to slow you down. In all honesty it seems like a dev’s petty revenge against people that speed cleared before. Do mobs on STORY MODE really need to chainfear/knockdown. I feel bad for classes that don’t have stability on demand.

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Posted by: BlackenX.7386

BlackenX.7386

my friends and i play AC dungeon route 1to 3 (1st play of the day)
they got 60, 60, 60 tokens
but i got 60, 45, 30 tokens
then, i play TA dungeons, and they got 60, and I got 10……………………………………
this is serious

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Posted by: Universal.9401

Universal.9401

+1 fist run after 8 day, and im get only 30 token’s, but my party get 60… why???

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Posted by: ZionNow.2138

ZionNow.2138

I think giving more dungeon rewards is a good idea. Good change when it works correctly.

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Posted by: Kain.9167

Kain.9167

So, I am getting some serious mixed messages here Arenanet. Apparently it is and it isn’t okay to exploit your game. People that glitched their way to CoF sets are sitting pretty right now with their ill-gotten gear and money, and the patch addressing the exploit has now come and gone. People that sold the karma weapons got permanently banned but CoF glitchers get a pass? I would be so beyondkitten if I were one of them! How is it fair that I didn’t farm using that glitch and I am now being punished for it for not exploiting it? Maybe I should just assume that the next farming glitch is okay to use and I should then? What if people get banned for the next one?

You’ve got to give us something here… This brings about so many questions about your policy towards exploiting. If it remains a gray area then you will most assuredly have more and more problems down the line.

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Posted by: Disconnected.9253

Disconnected.9253

don’t know about explore reward bugs, but ‘completion only’ rewards are a terrible idea.
there should be at least SOME tokens per boss, in addition to a modest completion reward.

the current system overall discourages instance running, especially story mode. Why even have the ‘story mode’ if no one wants to run it because it’s not worth the time/effort invested and is just too frustrating (chain cc’ing mobs and the entire room covered in aoe, good idea guys… yea this is definitely how to build a mechanically challenging fight… /sarcasm)

I love the twins fight in AC (tone the dmg down a bit though, imo). The golem in CM. The cat morph guy in TA (although he is pretty easy… fun mechanic though). Those are ‘fun’ fights.
Random packs of chainstunning, fearing mobs, untelegraphed oneshots, or randomly spawning tiny poison flowers that explode you to death while in combat with a pack of mobs … is NOT fun.

Also this is a bit off topic, but it would be nice to see a ‘death summary’ in pve just like you do in spvp, because currently if you get wtfstomped within the span of your physical reaction time, it would be nice to see ‘what you did wrong’ instead of digging through the combat log for 5mins. Another thing: add /follow to the game.

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Posted by: airswimmer.6129

airswimmer.6129

“All of these changes have been the result of an original exploit which was letting players receive upwards of 20 levels by completing a single dungeon run.”

Excuse me? I really hope this is some kind of typo because there was never ever an “exploit” that allowed you to gain 20 levels in ONE dungeon run.

What the “exploit” was was a broken dungeon reward system that gave you the same percent of you experience bar no matter your level or how or when you beat the dungeon. This led to you being able to gain about a level a run, not 20 levels.

I seriously hope this was an error in the write-up of the patch notes and not out of malice and spite because anyone who now reads this paragraph sees anyone who took advantage of this “exploit” or argued against the original changes to rewards as “evil people” who had nothing better to do but exploit to get to 80 the fastest way possible, which is just false.

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Posted by: Sieg.8439

Sieg.8439

Thanks for the changes, the increased tokens for runs was a fantastic idea. I had little to no motivation to grind for a full dungeon set before, but now it actually seems doable. Great job! : D

Now just to fix the bugs with it, heh.

EDIT: Also, please disregard the unwarranted, uninformed and misdirected angst in this thread. Nerdrage is generally insatiable.

“No one stitches you up like a tailor!”
-Siegg

(edited by Sieg.8439)

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Posted by: cotto.5780

cotto.5780

Still buggy the tokens reward?? Implement /resign plz kthx

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Posted by: Mightili.2514

Mightili.2514

I like this definitely:

2) Dungeons reward 20 tokens for completion and now reward an additional 40 tokens for the first time they are completed each day.
This should be in addition to what you receive in chests.

But Anet developers seem to be narrow minded. Its like the only thing they do is struggle to disable any ability of people to speed run dungeons and try to fight it FIRST OF ALL. Instead of thinking of overall game mechanics and players as a whole they first think:

“Hmm what is it we can do to prevent people from grinding dungeons and from speed running specific paths” – ahh here, lets disable everything until you reach the very end.

You know whats next exploit people will work on – lets find a way to get to the end as fast as possible without doing anything else.

Anet will keep trying to prevent exploiters from exploiting and in the process will severely affect game experience for everyone else who just wants to play the game and be rewarded for spending time in the dungeon.

I agree with OP. Daily bonuses for completing a path are good. That way we will look into completing all paths. But really what if group disbands after trying for say 1 hour. Dont play PUGs? If you dont have a guildies to run with dont play dungeons?

Just get back to your initial plans Anet. Last boss supposed to have % of dropping actual dungeon armor piece. Or at least add those items to the last chest, or to every boss loot table. You are trying to make dungeons less grind, so MAKE IT then. Tokens = grind. Keep tokens, but add the % of looting the actual armor/weapon piece and have it Bind on Equip so we can sell it on TP if we can’t wear it.

By giving us tokens you are simply saying – “we want you players to spend more time in dungeon because we don’t want you to have that armor too soon. So instead of giving you on armor piece per the whole dungeon like we promised in the beginning, we want you to spend at least 2-3 days running a dungeon to get one piece of armor or one weapon”.

Justify the trash mobs in dungeons. Add something significant into their loot tables. Don’t make these trash mobs feel like a mechanic to only slow down the player.

Thanks for adjusting rewards though. Hopefully I’ll be able to talk my guildies into doing dungeons again. They were really turned off by recent crazy nerf and stupid diminishing system that is BROKEN and only adds frustration and turns people away from doing anything other than playing alts.

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Posted by: DaedalusDragon.3754

DaedalusDragon.3754

lolololololol

Why lower it from 30 tokens at all? It is a MUCH bigger grind than it was two weeks ago. And now we don’t get ANYTHING unless we can complete it? Are you just a troll?! These are dreadful changes and I can’t help but feel like it is just some huge joke to you guys. Until all of the dungeon paths are balanced and not giant zergfests on the part of the mobs, there will be no reason to accomplish all of the dungeon paths and strongarming us into doing them all by punishing us for doing one more than once per day is NOT THE WAY TO DO IT!

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Posted by: Cyrdead.3156

Cyrdead.3156

Updated vendors in the Ascalonian Catacombs and Caudecus’s Manor to sell level 80 versions of their unique skins rather than level 60 and 70. Players who purchased the level 60 and 70 versions will soon be given the opportunity to upgrade those to level 80 without having to use transmutation stones.

yes cool … .

Now my ascalonian Ghastly sword lvl 60 transmuted on 80 sword pre-patch, was buged.
Blue effect dont works at night.

repported in game bug to.

screenshot (french) :

Attachments:

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Posted by: Rieselle.5079

Rieselle.5079

Maybe the dungeon reward system should have some more transparency, like when you get your reward, it lists all the modifiers that apply and why they are applied.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

“If you are experiencing Diminished Returns, it is due to clearing dungeons too quickly. If you feel you are unfairly being punished by our DR system, please post about it and we will review it when possible to see if the system is working as intended. The more info you give us the better.”
-
Why are you punishing players for “clearing dungeons too quickly”? Please don’t turn this game into a joke.

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Posted by: Te Ryn.3861

Te Ryn.3861

Rofl

Thats my thought.

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Posted by: FourthVariety.5463

FourthVariety.5463

Thumbs Up:
- The glorious return of the GW1 fullrun
- The account bound tokens
- The bump to 80 for Ascalon and Caudecus Exotics
- Smiting of farmruns doing only the first boss.

Thumbs Down:
- Bugs handing out wrong number of rewards.
- Invisible “diminishing returns” with unclear cooldown (make it a status icon with a timer!)
- Forced marriage of skin and stats on exotics

Still weirded out by
- the price of a superior rune in contrast to what it does and the price of an equivalent rune on the trading post.
- Crucible of Eternity – Submarine: Alpha’s utter inability to deal with a group in melee range. (give that poor guy a 200 yard PBAoE knockback, so it can get interesting from time to time)
- Balancing of Magg’s Bomb Event in Citadel of Flame. Is this a gear check I do not get, is there an item that is supposed to spawn but doesn’t?

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Posted by: dimgl.4786

dimgl.4786

Overall score: bad

Discussion and response to actions taken:

1) Dungeon tokens are now rewarded at the end of an explorable chain.
So what about all the work that goes into reaching the end? What happens if someone has to leave, or your group falls apart? You get nothing? Did you even think of things like this? I have to believe no thought at all goes into these design decisions.
—-

2) Dungeons reward 20 tokens for completion and now reward an additional 40 tokens for the first time they are completed each day.
This should be in addition to what you receive in chests.
—-

3) Dungeon tokens should be account bound. This will allow players to have a single character farm tokens for their other characters.
Doesn’t affect me. Good for some people though, im sure. Now, once you have your gear, you can run with friends and not be wasting time.
—-

4) This week, we’re updating the system to not impact clearing different chains of the same dungeon. We’ll continue to evaluate this system in coming weeks.
Great that youre working out bugs..but they shouldn’t be there to begin with. TEST YOUR PATCHES, and not on US.
—-

You are simply not addressing the actual problem.

Dungeon design is poor on every account except, imo, the minigame portions (diffuse bombs).

Boss fights have no hint of strategy. If you DID build a strategy, you did so by simply picking one moveset shared between a group and built an entire 10-15 minute boss fight around it. This is a horrible way of doing it because it severely limits customization and forces players into a playstyle they don’t want.

Stick to telegraphed attacks, red circles on the ground, and terrain. Stick to condition removal, kiting, and LOS. That is what your combat system promotes. I don’t know what the heck youre doing now, but it doesn’t work.

Regarding rewards. As I said above, the fact that you aren’t giving us any until completion is flat out absurd, especially with the artificially inflated HP pools of most mobs and the amount of time it now requires to beat these dungeons.

You need to provide rewards throughout the dungeon

1) All dungeon mobs have % chance to drop a token
2) Bosses/Chest have a % chance to drop an actual dungeon item

There, suddenly everyone doesn’t mind killing what theyre supposed to.

Dude, this all sounds like a personal issue and a bunch of whining to me. There’s no fun in knowing exactly what to do every time you go encounter a top-tier dungeon the first few times. All of these dungeons have gone through internal testing. It’s not like they’re releasing all of this content that is impossible to do, like you state.

Did you forget that these dungeons are designed to be “facemeltingly” hard? They also act as a deterrent to prolong the life of the game. These aren’t dungeons that you can just pick up any PUG group and finish in thirty minutes. It’s posts like these that contributed to the dumbing down of World of Warcraft post-WotLK, where suddenly they cater to everyone and the hardcore players are left like “okay… this is too easy”.

A very clear example of this is Domain of Anguish in Guild Wars. Domain of Anguish is so freaking hard only a percentage of everyone who played Guild Wars have been able to complete the entire thing. It’s there for those people who have finished the leveling experience and now want an additional challenge. It’s there so people can learn how to play the game at a more advanced level.

The same thing happens in Guild Wars 2. Sure, things are not perfect, but these dungeons are designed to make you think about solutions to your problems. I keep encountering players that just run into mobs and have no idea about positioning, build composition, weapon and utility selection, and consets (consumables), players that run into boss fights and get mad because “there is no way to beat it” or “they don’t know what to do”. That is the point. You need to learn how to beat the boss. Not everything is going to be spoon fed to you.

If there’s anything I have to complain about, it’s the learning curve. The rest of the game needs to scale up and become progressively harder, to train players gradually to get ready for explorable mode, which is technically the hardest content in the game.

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Posted by: Cisza.9540

Cisza.9540

I love the changes – that is if they will start working correctly. 180 tokens per dungeon (240 for Arah) in 1,5 hour with good group (if you really spend 3 hours in 1 path you must really suck. I mean – really).

However whole DR system is bad idea. We should get 20 tokens each time we clear a path for 2nd, 3rd… time, no matter how fast we do it. In my guild, with all ppl having bis gear already, we sometimes do a path in 20 mins – without any exploits. Why are we being punished for skilled gameplay?

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Posted by: DaedalusDragon.3754

DaedalusDragon.3754

1) You mentioned that “They also act as a deterrent to prolong the life of the game” which might be the most wrong statement in the history of statements. It is, in fact, the exact opposite.

Complaining isn’t a bad thing in itself. How else would a developer know about our feelings on the game unless everyone only ever had positive things to say? Nothing can be fixed if nobody ever complains.

These dungeons aren’t challenging, they are hard. They are hard because the only element in them that isn’t easy is that every enemy and their grandmothers have a lot of hp and can 1-hit kill you. I never feel like a proper strategy will help because the only strategy for any of these fights is to throw everything I have at them and try and not get hit too much.

On another note: I don’t appreciate having content in a game that I might not be able to complete due to straight up skill. If this was the real life and I hadn’t paid for this game, I’d just say “Oh well… guess I’m just not good enough to do that” but as I have paid for this product, it is a giant slap in the face when the developer says “l2p nub”. There is no content in this game that can prepare you for their absurd dungeon runs and even the first dungeon you do is stupid hard with no learning aspect except beating your head against the enemies until they die.

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Posted by: dimgl.4786

dimgl.4786

What I think they should do is create a system where the dungeon awards more tokens as you progress further in the dungeon. Why wouldn’t they just do that?

(edited by dimgl.4786)

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Posted by: ref.8196

ref.8196

lolololololol

Why lower it from 30 tokens at all? It is a MUCH bigger grind than it was two weeks ago. And now we don’t get ANYTHING unless we can complete it? Are you just a troll?! These are dreadful changes and I can’t help but feel like it is just some huge joke to you guys. Until all of the dungeon paths are balanced and not giant zergfests on the part of the mobs, there will be no reason to accomplish all of the dungeon paths and strongarming us into doing them all by punishing us for doing one more than once per day is NOT THE WAY TO DO IT!

It hasn’t been decreased, it’s been increased, by double.

Before, doing all 3 paths in 1 day gives you 90 tokens.

Now it gives 180.

If people are getting 60, 45, and 30 in 3 runs, then it’s probably a bug and they will fix it.

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Posted by: iSECKS.6738

iSECKS.6738

What’s really annoying is the fact that I highly doubt any of us will actually be reimbursed for the lost tokens/time/exp/money. But instead will just be granted with a patch that will supposedly ‘fix’ everything and that all is going to be well from now on.

Look I know how much pressure is placed upon Anet at this point in time, but I would rather they actually take their time with patches and actually TEST their new ideas/content for themselves, instead of using us as guinea pigs and just dropping the nerf hammer on pretty much everything.

It’s as if they panic so much at the sign of any new exploit/bug that the entire office gets into an uproar and quickly codes together something that will ‘save’ their game.
The game doesn’t need saving, thankfully not yet at least, but at this rate I am afraid it might. The reason why so many people are posting on the forums and are showing so much concern is that they are frustrated that a game that has so much potential keeps taking a turn for the worse.

Take your time, and trust in your community, most are willing to wait for quality updates and will show appreciation for it. (Don’t hold me to that lol)
Quality over quantity for patches gentlemen, quality over quantity.

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Posted by: dimgl.4786

dimgl.4786

1) You mentioned that “They also act as a deterrent to prolong the life of the game” which might be the most wrong statement in the history of statements. It is, in fact, the exact opposite.

Complaining isn’t a bad thing in itself. How else would a developer know about our feelings on the game unless everyone only ever had positive things to say? Nothing can be fixed if nobody ever complains.

These dungeons aren’t challenging, they are hard. They are hard because the only element in them that isn’t easy is that every enemy and their grandmothers have a lot of hp and can 1-hit kill you. I never feel like a proper strategy will help because the only strategy for any of these fights is to throw everything I have at them and try and not get hit too much.

On another note: I don’t appreciate having content in a game that I might not be able to complete due to straight up skill. If this was the real life and I hadn’t paid for this game, I’d just say “Oh well… guess I’m just not good enough to do that” but as I have paid for this product, it is a giant slap in the face when the developer says “l2p nub”. There is no content in this game that can prepare you for their absurd dungeon runs and even the first dungeon you do is stupid hard with no learning aspect except beating your head against the enemies until they die.

This, I can agree with. ArenaNet should implement a way of showing players how to think to beat dungeons in the game. However, this does prolong the life of the game due to the fact that the dungeon won’t be mastered quickly by everyone…

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Posted by: ref.8196

ref.8196

1) You mentioned that “They also act as a deterrent to prolong the life of the game” which might be the most wrong statement in the history of statements. It is, in fact, the exact opposite.

Complaining isn’t a bad thing in itself. How else would a developer know about our feelings on the game unless everyone only ever had positive things to say? Nothing can be fixed if nobody ever complains.

These dungeons aren’t challenging, they are hard. They are hard because the only element in them that isn’t easy is that every enemy and their grandmothers have a lot of hp and can 1-hit kill you. I never feel like a proper strategy will help because the only strategy for any of these fights is to throw everything I have at them and try and not get hit too much.

On another note: I don’t appreciate having content in a game that I might not be able to complete due to straight up skill. If this was the real life and I hadn’t paid for this game, I’d just say “Oh well… guess I’m just not good enough to do that” but as I have paid for this product, it is a giant slap in the face when the developer says “l2p nub”. There is no content in this game that can prepare you for their absurd dungeon runs and even the first dungeon you do is stupid hard with no learning aspect except beating your head against the enemies until they die.

If you are getting 1 hit killed by bosses in dungeons, you are doing it wrong. Which means it is challenging, not hard, as the rest of us don’t die in 1 hit.

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Posted by: dimgl.4786

dimgl.4786

What’s really annoying is the fact that I highly doubt any of us will actually be reimbursed for the lost tokens/time/exp/money. But instead will just be granted with a patch that will supposedly ‘fix’ everything and that all is going to be well from now on.

Look I know how much pressure is placed upon Anet at this point in time, but I would rather they actually take their time with patches and actually TEST their new ideas/content for themselves, instead of using us as guinea pigs and just dropping the nerf hammer on pretty much everything.

It’s as if they panic so much at the sign of any new exploit/bug that the entire office gets into an uproar and quickly codes together something that will ‘save’ their game.
The game doesn’t need saving, thankfully not yet at least, but at this rate I am afraid it might. The reason why so many people are posting on the forums and are showing so much concern is that they are frustrated that a game that has so much potential keeps taking a turn for the worse.

Take your time, and trust in your community, most are willing to wait for quality updates and will show appreciation for it. (Don’t hold me to that lol)
Quality over quantity for patches gentlemen, quality over quantity.

I think this is only because it’s the first month of the game’s release… I’m sure the updates will become far less common over time.

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Posted by: dimgl.4786

dimgl.4786

1) You mentioned that “They also act as a deterrent to prolong the life of the game” which might be the most wrong statement in the history of statements. It is, in fact, the exact opposite.

Complaining isn’t a bad thing in itself. How else would a developer know about our feelings on the game unless everyone only ever had positive things to say? Nothing can be fixed if nobody ever complains.

These dungeons aren’t challenging, they are hard. They are hard because the only element in them that isn’t easy is that every enemy and their grandmothers have a lot of hp and can 1-hit kill you. I never feel like a proper strategy will help because the only strategy for any of these fights is to throw everything I have at them and try and not get hit too much.

On another note: I don’t appreciate having content in a game that I might not be able to complete due to straight up skill. If this was the real life and I hadn’t paid for this game, I’d just say “Oh well… guess I’m just not good enough to do that” but as I have paid for this product, it is a giant slap in the face when the developer says “l2p nub”. There is no content in this game that can prepare you for their absurd dungeon runs and even the first dungeon you do is stupid hard with no learning aspect except beating your head against the enemies until they die.

If you are getting 1 hit killed by bosses in dungeons, you are doing it wrong. Which means it is challenging, not hard, as the rest of us don’t die in 1 hit.

This is what I’m saying. Basically, people are just doing it wrong and they need to learn how to play instead of QQing. Explorable dungeons aren’t the only thing available to do in the game. Not even by a stretch. You can still 100% all the maps, PvP, WvWvW, complete meta events, so on and so forth. It’s not required to do explorable dungeons.

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: Inci.7560

Inci.7560

1) You mentioned that “They also act as a deterrent to prolong the life of the game” which might be the most wrong statement in the history of statements. It is, in fact, the exact opposite.

Complaining isn’t a bad thing in itself. How else would a developer know about our feelings on the game unless everyone only ever had positive things to say? Nothing can be fixed if nobody ever complains.

These dungeons aren’t challenging, they are hard. They are hard because the only element in them that isn’t easy is that every enemy and their grandmothers have a lot of hp and can 1-hit kill you. I never feel like a proper strategy will help because the only strategy for any of these fights is to throw everything I have at them and try and not get hit too much.

On another note: I don’t appreciate having content in a game that I might not be able to complete due to straight up skill. If this was the real life and I hadn’t paid for this game, I’d just say “Oh well… guess I’m just not good enough to do that” but as I have paid for this product, it is a giant slap in the face when the developer says “l2p nub”. There is no content in this game that can prepare you for their absurd dungeon runs and even the first dungeon you do is stupid hard with no learning aspect except beating your head against the enemies until they die.

If you are getting 1 hit killed by bosses in dungeons, you are doing it wrong. Which means it is challenging, not hard, as the rest of us don’t die in 1 hit.

This is what I’m saying. Basically, people are just doing it wrong and they need to learn how to play instead of QQing. Explorable dungeons aren’t the only thing available to do in the game. Not even by a stretch. You can still 100% all the maps, PvP, WvWvW, complete meta events, so on and so forth. It’s not required to do explorable dungeons.

99% of the time, those 1 shot abilities are easy to avoid, reflect, dodge, block or revive. So, make it part of your tactics to deal with it.

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: ref.8196

ref.8196

1) You mentioned that “They also act as a deterrent to prolong the life of the game” which might be the most wrong statement in the history of statements. It is, in fact, the exact opposite.

Complaining isn’t a bad thing in itself. How else would a developer know about our feelings on the game unless everyone only ever had positive things to say? Nothing can be fixed if nobody ever complains.

These dungeons aren’t challenging, they are hard. They are hard because the only element in them that isn’t easy is that every enemy and their grandmothers have a lot of hp and can 1-hit kill you. I never feel like a proper strategy will help because the only strategy for any of these fights is to throw everything I have at them and try and not get hit too much.

On another note: I don’t appreciate having content in a game that I might not be able to complete due to straight up skill. If this was the real life and I hadn’t paid for this game, I’d just say “Oh well… guess I’m just not good enough to do that” but as I have paid for this product, it is a giant slap in the face when the developer says “l2p nub”. There is no content in this game that can prepare you for their absurd dungeon runs and even the first dungeon you do is stupid hard with no learning aspect except beating your head against the enemies until they die.

If you are getting 1 hit killed by bosses in dungeons, you are doing it wrong. Which means it is challenging, not hard, as the rest of us don’t die in 1 hit.

This is what I’m saying. Basically, people are just doing it wrong and they need to learn how to play instead of QQing. Explorable dungeons aren’t the only thing available to do in the game. Not even by a stretch. You can still 100% all the maps, PvP, WvWvW, complete meta events, so on and so forth. It’s not required to do explorable dungeons.

Exactly, it’s annoying to come to the forums and see people complaining because it’s too hard, they are just too lazy to try and work out how to do it properly.

This patch is great, it encourages people to try and beat all 3 paths of a dungeon, and not just for achievement sakes (I wanted to do all 3 before because I just did, it’s fun). But at the moment it seems it is a little bugged. Which is fine, they will fix it.

Here is the reason they implemented having 1 reward at the end:
A-net don’t want their game to be grinded as in other mmos. They created the content, and they want us to enjoy it, and they don’t want people to grind the easiest parts of it and de-value the rewards gained by other people. In the system before, people found ways of getting to the first chest and gaining 5 tokens and the random rewards.

It is much harder to balance every single path and every single stage in the dungeon. There are obviously some harder bits and some easier bits, and A-net want us to experience all of it, and for those who want to do this anyway, they don’t want others to grind the rewards quickly and hence de-value the reward itself.

(edited by ref.8196)

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: DaedalusDragon.3754

DaedalusDragon.3754

One of their biggest issues is their lack of testing. The DR system hasn’t worked since it came out and even after “fixing” it, it still doesn’t work. I have coded a small amount in the past and I know that it isn’t easy finding errors even in 1,000 lines of code, none the less millions, but these half-kittened patches are really aggravating me.

And why are people being punished for doing exceptionally well in a dungeon? Why should there be some forced 30 minute or more rule? Who comes up with these design rules? My suggestion to this person is, make your dungeons better. Not harder with more hp and not some half-baked idea to force people to sit there and wait for this invisible 30 minute timer, but a more challenging experience with strategy.

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: Evil.9061

Evil.9061

Punishing players , after you had addressed design-based myopic issues, is wrong. Players who craft or grind gear will get better results with time in character. Ergo faster completion times and directly into punishment for good play.

Diminishing returns based on completion time, Well if you wanted to be revolutionary….that truly is.

As far as live being your Test realm, might not be the best idea.

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: iSECKS.6738

iSECKS.6738

What’s really annoying is the fact that I highly doubt any of us will actually be reimbursed for the lost tokens/time/exp/money. But instead will just be granted with a patch that will supposedly ‘fix’ everything and that all is going to be well from now on.

Look I know how much pressure is placed upon Anet at this point in time, but I would rather they actually take their time with patches and actually TEST their new ideas/content for themselves, instead of using us as guinea pigs and just dropping the nerf hammer on pretty much everything.

It’s as if they panic so much at the sign of any new exploit/bug that the entire office gets into an uproar and quickly codes together something that will ‘save’ their game.
The game doesn’t need saving, thankfully not yet at least, but at this rate I am afraid it might. The reason why so many people are posting on the forums and are showing so much concern is that they are frustrated that a game that has so much potential keeps taking a turn for the worse.

Take your time, and trust in your community, most are willing to wait for quality updates and will show appreciation for it. (Don’t hold me to that lol)
Quality over quantity for patches gentlemen, quality over quantity.

I think this is only because it’s the first month of the game’s release… I’m sure the updates will become far less common over time.

Agreed, but to a certain extent. I don’t see an update as successful if you have to release a new update to fix the issues from the old one. I just find it difficult to understand how the problem couldn’t be identified in the testing phases when so many players are now having this issue.

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: ref.8196

ref.8196

Punishing players , after you had addressed design-based myopic issues, is wrong. Players who craft or grind gear will get better results with time in character. Ergo faster completion times and directly into punishment for good play.

Diminishing returns based on completion time, Well if you wanted to be revolutionary….that truly is.

As far as live being your Test realm, might not be the best idea.

I’m pretty sure it’s bugged at the moment, so lets wait until they fix it before commenting on the diminishing returns system.

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: dimgl.4786

dimgl.4786

Again guys, I really think the right idea is to implement a system where your awards get better as you progress further in the dungeon… So you have a big incentive to actually do the whole thing…

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: ref.8196

ref.8196

Again guys, I really think the right idea is to implement a system where your awards get better as you progress further in the dungeon… So you have a big incentive to actually do the whole thing…

But isn’t the reward at the end enough incentive to do the whole thing?

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: Inci.7560

Inci.7560

I for one am happy they reward you at the end. the only two boss Arah runs were annoying the hell out of me, not just because of repetativeness, but because the unwillingness to get past the third boss, which can easily be cleared with some leadership.

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: iSECKS.6738

iSECKS.6738

Again guys, I really think the right idea is to implement a system where your awards get better as you progress further in the dungeon… So you have a big incentive to actually do the whole thing…

But isn’t the reward at the end enough incentive to do the whole thing?

And what if something urgent comes up that one person needs to leave mid way through a dungeon or right before the end? They get absolutely nothing but a repair bill and minor loot from chests.

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: Meowskies.9867

Meowskies.9867

Can the diminished returns be a top concern? I am tired of getting 1/2 of what I should be getting. I get 30 out of 60 tokens for the 1st dungeon of the day, 13 silver opposed to 26, and even though exp does not matter to me, get 50k as opposed to 100.
It has been the same way since I 1st started playing, and doing dungeon runs, and even though I enjoy doing them, I’d like to at least get the same amount others get. It gets boring grinding gold for exotic gear, and I’d like to be able to get some dungeon gear.
Thanks.

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: Roll.6329

Roll.6329

Overall score: bad

Discussion and response to actions taken:

1) Dungeon tokens are now rewarded at the end of an explorable chain.
So what about all the work that goes into reaching the end? What happens if someone has to leave, or your group falls apart? You get nothing? Did you even think of things like this? I have to believe no thought at all goes into these design decisions.
—-

2) Dungeons reward 20 tokens for completion and now reward an additional 40 tokens for the first time they are completed each day.
This should be in addition to what you receive in chests.
—-

3) Dungeon tokens should be account bound. This will allow players to have a single character farm tokens for their other characters.
Doesn’t affect me. Good for some people though, im sure. Now, once you have your gear, you can run with friends and not be wasting time.
—-

4) This week, we’re updating the system to not impact clearing different chains of the same dungeon. We’ll continue to evaluate this system in coming weeks.
Great that youre working out bugs..but they shouldn’t be there to begin with. TEST YOUR PATCHES, and not on US.
—-

You are simply not addressing the actual problem.

Dungeon design is poor on every account except, imo, the minigame portions (diffuse bombs).

Boss fights have no hint of strategy. If you DID build a strategy, you did so by simply picking one moveset shared between a group and built an entire 10-15 minute boss fight around it. This is a horrible way of doing it because it severely limits customization and forces players into a playstyle they don’t want.

Stick to telegraphed attacks, red circles on the ground, and terrain. Stick to condition removal, kiting, and LOS. That is what your combat system promotes. I don’t know what the heck youre doing now, but it doesn’t work.

Regarding rewards. As I said above, the fact that you aren’t giving us any until completion is flat out absurd, especially with the artificially inflated HP pools of most mobs and the amount of time it now requires to beat these dungeons.

You need to provide rewards throughout the dungeon

1) All dungeon mobs have % chance to drop a token
2) Bosses/Chest have a % chance to drop an actual dungeon item

There, suddenly everyone doesn’t mind killing what theyre supposed to.

This guy nailed it. +1

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: Evil.9061

Evil.9061

Punishing players , after you had addressed design-based myopic issues, is wrong. Players who craft or grind gear will get better results with time in character. Ergo faster completion times and directly into punishment for good play.

Diminishing returns based on completion time, Well if you wanted to be revolutionary….that truly is.

As far as live being your Test realm, might not be the best idea.

I’m pretty sure it’s bugged at the moment, so lets wait until they fix it before commenting on the diminishing returns system.

“If you are experiencing Diminished Returns, it is due to clearing dungeons too quickly.”
-Robert H

Posted today.

My post was focused on the hour for 2 dungeon runs then you hit the DR.

Dungeon Patch Discussion 9/25

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Posted by: Dark Sentry.1270

Dark Sentry.1270

Punishing for clearing the dungeon too fast is completely absurd.

It shouldn’t matter how fast you can clear the dungeon when you are already punished for repeating a dungeon path. Why is it necessary to double punish someone who is capable of doing the dungeon with ease?

Diminishing returns for multiple successive runs: okay
Diminishing returns for finishing too fast: the worst idea ever…