The CoF Buff: My opinions

The CoF Buff: My opinions

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Posted by: InternetKillTV.5798

InternetKillTV.5798

Excellent post. Arena Net, I reaaaally do not like you right now.

“Choose Happiness”

5 Years Later, We’re There!

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Posted by: conquista.1536

conquista.1536

this Fantom guy thinks hes good and says he gets 0-2 downs, when he quotes the part for suicide chain death for magg run.

care to back that statement up by frapsing the “patched” cof run? please i’ll know if its the one before this patch, because I already ran this dungeon 3 times with random people. After doing it 3 times, I can’t even imagine not dying a couple times with guildies of mine, which we all have full lvl 80 exotics. Unless you decide to spam res tokens and say thats easy, which would make you look like a joke in general.

and I totally agree with Daboris’s post. Dungeon gear set isnt supposed to obtained in a day. This is also an endgame design, where you’d have to work for your dungeon tokens to get the gears.

This is why the CoF Explorable Magg route difficulty buff became a total overkill. They could have modified the reward to match the 10-15min runs that it took, compared to other routes that took 30min to an hr. It would “cater” to the casual players, but in the end they’d have to spend equal or more time than the semi/experienced/hardcore players doing the other route. They could also make the other difficult routes scale and give better rewards.

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Posted by: D I V A.6018

D I V A.6018

I may be wrong, but you seem to be the one and only one who comes to the forums and cries about something that HAD TO BE DONE

CoF was a complete joke, I ran it…maybe 30-40+ times. At the end of each “farm-day” I actually felt unsatisfied even though I made a lot of money. I felt like some sort of sick farm-bot and I would have much rather spent some time doing dungeons I really wanted the achievements from. But somehow I felt an urge to continue bore myself with CoF because it was free money.

THANK YOU ANET.
this was a change I needed, now I can concentrate on things I really really love about this game.

PS: I am supremely happy that those “GLFM CoF exp, no noobs, no eles, lvl 80+ minimum 2000+ attack” – idiots are gone.
DIVA

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Posted by: StevieMJH.9105

StevieMJH.9105

<walloftext>

I personally don’t think the problem is with CoF path 2 but with the fact that they didn’t understand that if you make one dungeon super easy and the rest more difficult and then have all gear have the same stats, players are obviously going to pick the easiest and most profitable dungeon run.

One CoF run takes 20 minutes, give or take a few, and gives you 20 or 30 tokens depending on whether or not you’re getting your daily. If you look at the rest of the dungeons, like the Arah artifact path, which people are more clearly using a glitch to complete, then you’ll realize that the balance of these dungeons is completely ridiculous for a token-based system. People would run the more difficult dungeons more often if you simply made it so that each run had an x% chance of dropping an exotic item from one of the character’s sets (and the difficult runs had a higher percentage). It doesn’t have to be any set in particular, say I’m looking for the Power/Prec/Crit set of medium armor and I get the Power/Prec/Condition coat instead. Tough kitten (love the censor here, by the way), looks like I’m still farming if I want my perfect build.

It takes anywhere from 9 runs for any 180 token piece of armor up to 20 for a two-handed weapon. 20 runs can be comfortably completed in a day if sitting down and playing. At the rate I was getting tokens and running CoF (I got my last piece yesterday before the buff, tyvm) I could get my full set inside a week of playing in my free time. I also leveled from 1-80 in five days on my first character. Seems balanced to me, honestly. If it takes an equal amount of time to get from 1-80 as it does to get the level 80 armor once you get there, I don’t think anyone has anything to whine about except for the fact that maybe some of the other dungeons should be a little less annoying so that people don’t get stuck in the same frackin routine.

Here’s an idea: make each dungeon have three different paths. One that’s easier and gives you a small amount of tokens, one in the middle for both, and one that’s difficult but gives you a better token/time payout.

I’d love to be able to get some CoE armor because with the Medium set, the chest just looks plain better. Let’s be honest, who the hell codes a chest model so that if you wear it you block the view of the shoulders from the same set (i.e. the medium CoF chest/shoulders)?

However, I do agree that the one part they shouldn’t have buffed was the kiting part. I mean come on, it’s already completely impossible to play it as they intended, so they just make it harder? It’s a broken system to run around just long enough to keep the aggro off an NPC and then die so you can run back and do it again.

</walloftext>

tl;dr Don’t make one token-based dungeon easier than the rest if you’re just going to QQ about it and buff it later.

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Posted by: Tigger.8035

Tigger.8035

I want to manhug Crucifer so hard.

Also Rare orbs > Superior runes if your focusing on a specific area of improvement. Like ruby orbs for critical damage/Power/Crit rate.

Guess the only thing I’m missing is a guild back pack and a bunch of 20 slot bags >.<

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Posted by: Takiwaki.5948

Takiwaki.5948

Something def had to be done, I just hope they rework the reward system a bit, to make pushing through the dungeons worth it, as right now there is no incentive to beat a dungeon, as the token rewards are no where near substantial enough to warrant the time investment needed in some of the paths.

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Posted by: Mr Prismatic.9578

Mr Prismatic.9578

Runs are do-able, but definitely not worth it.
Please reverse this for the time being, and come at it again another time.

The audience is always right.

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Posted by: conquista.1536

conquista.1536

CoF was a complete joke, I ran it…maybe 30-40+ times. At the end of each “farm-day” I actually felt unsatisfied even though I made a lot of money.

so all in all “lol i did cof runs when it was ez, good luck every1 im done with this dungeon”

Tell me, did you kill the mobs before the patch, or just ran around kiting at most 5 monsters on your screen? I’m sure you probably just ran around happily doing the speed runs in 10mins. I’m sure even if you tried to do that now, you’d probably fail it unless you coordinate ur deaths so it chains with one another, or spam some res tokens to not fail it.

I could care less about getting dungeon gears, I’ve had berserker draconis set with full exotic trinkets and weapons that arent “pearl skinned” weapon for warrior ever since 2 weeks into launch. I dont call myself a casual, but I do care about this game, which has more casuals than semi/hardcore players.

Even me, who isnt a casual player tried the speed run a couple of times. The first time I did it, I knew a dungeon difficulty update was coming. However this was also a staple for casual players to slowly obtain a full CoF set. You on the other hand took it to the hardcore level and just straight up abused the crap out of it since it was so easy and got it within a day or two.

The patch was handled poorly, that route from casual friendly became hardcore/coordinated/geared route, but to the point where I believe even hardcore players have to chain suicide due to how high the difficulty went, not going paper? what are you going to have like warriors/guardians/necros only? maybe a mesmer or thief for spamming weakness? yet you do all that and suddenly the mob doubles, then triples due to not enough dps output due to “balanced” party builds. Then you run out of cd rotation, your balanced builds cant match the amount of dps that comes in from the constant mob spawns. Whats the last option? run around like how people did for the speed run, and hope for the best.

Yes, they added a diminishing return, which would basically nullify some of the easy farming for doing that 1 sole dungeon route, they also could’ve lowered the reward for finishing that dungeon, due to how easy it was, yet it was something the casuals can do. It wasn’t impossible.

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Posted by: Midgard.1235

Midgard.1235

this buff of the dungeons was the major mistake they did… it will not go away so fast.

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Posted by: StevieMJH.9105

StevieMJH.9105

Let’s not forget to mention the fact that it used to take 5 seconds to get into a party but now it’s taking me 10 minutes+ simply because there’s no one at CoF anymore. Smooth.

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Posted by: Vorpal.4683

Vorpal.4683

This was a horrible horrible change. And completely unneeded with the anti-speed run code they put in. Putting in diminishing returns on doing more than 2 runs per day is a perfect solution. No need to make the entirety of CoF impossible to complete.

CoF 1 is still bugged, CoF 3 is still bugged.

How interesting that they can ‘speed patch’ in something that HURTS players but the same skill points have been bugged for weeks.

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Posted by: StevieMJH.9105

StevieMJH.9105

The only patches they’ve been implementing are the ones that actually diminish the players’ ability to enjoy the game and accomplish what they’re setting out to do. Other than that, they don’t fix anything, just make it harder.

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Posted by: BlueCheez.4873

BlueCheez.4873

It makes me pretty upset how horribly they handle these kind of things…

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Posted by: Fuuga.3287

Fuuga.3287

I like how ANet’s priority is making the working dungeons less fun instead of fixing the myriad of bugs that occur in the dungeons. (Or in the game period, skill points anyone?)

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Posted by: StevieMJH.9105

StevieMJH.9105

“Let’s just make the one runnable dungeon impossible like all the rest instead of the other way around.”

“Makes sense.”

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Posted by: tonny.7580

tonny.7580

i just Rund cof path 2 with pro group did lava with hard becous the nps got stund and died alot and mobs spawnd fast 5 secont but we magned with 20min try to get him there usuly he ran over but now u have ot get them there with full group and now comes the forst part the Fire mobs spawn on the gate ok u get first 3 on 10% ok thad noting u kill adlist 2-3 of them undil u got 50% ur dead 79 % was closed we got becous mobs were spawn to fast hit like truck and this just was 30min ago this patch was noting abut ad moring u still got to it but now it just got buff like 30 min ago ifen harder now soo how u get bast the group the gate bombing spot on path nr 2 is realy question how is it nerf or path 2 cant by finist like nr 1 and path 3 first part takes guild vent timing and my team was with full exoting gear there

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Posted by: tonny.7580

tonny.7580

P.S i am dylexis soo dont start with learn english

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Posted by: Draaky.2436

Draaky.2436

Please fix CoF dungeon …
Its not fun anny more …

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Posted by: Suddle D.9412

Suddle D.9412

You might as well just let us buy tokens and save time from running dungeons and giving our money away since it seems we will now make less than our repair bills when its all over. I know you guys want us to have money sinks and keep the economy low, but now there are no ways to make decent gold or grind out items.

(edited by Suddle D.9412)

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Posted by: MattVid.7905

MattVid.7905

I am hoping these are temporary fixes, with tweaks coming. Nothing is set in stone, people need to chill out.

I would much prefer to have story/explorable set to a level that PUGs could complete. Though, I like difficulty. I would love to see “Hard Modes” like the original game had, that would give a lot more rewards, and be substantially more difficult. These could have a lockout as well.

Honestly, a better choice would be to have lockout timers, to force people to try out other dungeons and paths. Creating lockouts, and increasing rewards would go far for the casual scene.

The main thing I don’t like with these changes is how they let the hardcores all farm the crap out of this stuff for hundreds of gold and thousands of tokens … and then they nerf it into oblivion. This is basically along the same lines as “exploiting”, a not tested, badly designed mechanic gone wrong.

I honestly don’t have time to run more than a few dungeons a night, and I don’t find farming the crap out of them particularly fun, so this probably won’t effect me much. Then again, I would like to see more rewards for exploring and participating in different things. There are so many things you could do …

Dungeon Dailies – A different dungeon every day, even a different specified path. Extra reward at the end for completing it.

Dungeon Lockout timers – This is way better than nerfing rewards for completing the same content at the same difficulty. This is as much BS as your anti-botting code (if that is even true …).

I don’t have problems with the difficulty, especially seeing how horrible most PUG people are. It has little to do with team communication and make up … and a lot more to do with people simply not knowing how to play at all. Every “bugged dungeon event” I have heard about and tried myself is most definitely not bugged … people are just bad and want everything handed to them on a silver platter because they can’t figure it out and complete it themselves.

I would like to see MORE difficulty, honestly.

Vidrak Ironwill – Norn Guardian
Omniscient of Jade Quarry

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Posted by: tonny.7580

tonny.7580

question is path 1 boss still to impa i mean i am ad sec doing it and realy realy i cant kill him with op group we did other 2 boss areas fast seim as 20 min run but last boss just spawn to fast crystals u kill them the will respawn soo fast thad u dont have time to dps him or other way u dps him and u get him to 90% ingor crystal still he reqs and spawn 25crystal ad him ifen if u kid him soo tell me is there any way to to this now

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Posted by: Vladia.2731

Vladia.2731

Exotic armor should NOT be easy to get. Everyone who is complaining that the “easy way” of getting exotic prestige armor got fixed is in the wrong. So you can’t run the easy path anymore to get your exotic armor easy. That is intended. If anyone has played GW1 and remembers Obby armor, or 15k armor you would see the dungeons in a different light.

Too many people are focused on the now, now, now. I want my rewards NOW. If I don’t get them NOW I’m going to bekitten It’s pathetic that everyone has been conditioned to be able to get everything they want when they want it. No one has to work anymore for anything. I for one am ecstatic about having to work for my exotic skins. It gives me a purpose to play the game.

Stop rushing. Start playing.

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Posted by: Nix.2984

Nix.2984

This is going to be a major source for a lot of fresh 80 players quitting this game. Esp. in a non-guild environment.

This is so true … i am seriously thinking abt quitting due to this “buff” … just waiting for a few of my friend to be piissed over the weekend (when they do the pathetic dungeon runs) and … tada ! GOOD BYE GW2 !!

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Posted by: Robert Hrouda.1327

Robert Hrouda.1327

Content Designer

Hey folks, I’ve been reading this thread for a bit and figured I’d come weigh in on things. I built this dungeon, and fixed the problem, so I’m going to come at you from the designer perspective on things to try and illuminate why I did what I did, and what exactly I did. It wasn’t made clear, and I apologize for that.
The main thing I am seeing, is that people are upset that I took away their super profitable low risk, fast, token grind. I did not go into this thinking everyone would be happy with my changes – I knew I would be upsetting people because I was taking away a super easy speed-run money printer.
I took it away for a few reasons – chief among them being what I feel is taking advantage of a couple bugs found in the same chain, and our leashing/aggro system. I played with groups who did this, and watched you-tube clips of what was going on. The problems I identified with the speed run aspect of this are as follows:
1. You just need 1 person to get to the magmacyte across the magma field. This will cause an invulnerable Magg to run across the entire field through mobs and progress the dungeon. Then this person teleports back.
2. Instead of fighting the enemies in a timed event at he door buster, you just circle strafe them or leash aggro them to “kill the clock” since it was only a 100 second timer on the event.
3. Final Boss encounter isn’t threatening.
So what did I do?
1. I made it so that Magg has to get to the other side of the Magma field and close to the magmacyte – not just a player. Magg not taking aggro from nearby enemies was a big reason for this issue to be resolved. By giving him aggro, and forcing you to escort him to the ending, I fixed what I considered to be a bug/exploit that I introduced through poor planning.
2. I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them. I also added 1 additional mob to the encounter at the very middle (a bow dude) to account for you now having twice the time to defeat the waves that come in.
3. I made the fireballs hurt more. Not greatly more – they’ll do about 3-4k damage to a DPS focused player, but you should have anywhere between 15k-25k HP, so there’s a bit of wiggle room for error.

I made this path hard, because it was easy. It’s an explorable dungeon path, and they should be hard. Wearing the flame legion armor set should be a symbol of what you went through to obtain something. It should mean something. Right now it means you did 40 speedruns in 2 days.
I hope this helps a bit, but I understand you’re upset. For all it’s worth I’m sorry, and I hope we can move past this.

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Posted by: Thorn.7963

Thorn.7963

People don’t want to have fun or work for things Robert. They just want to farm.

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Posted by: Sundays.2807

Sundays.2807

I agree the lack of a PTR or PTS is extremely odd for a triple A MMO.

Would like more thorough patch notes, explanation from devs on their reasoning behind changes and a PTR where the player base can see these upcoming changes in practice.

Lack of PTR doesn’t seem on par with the standard set by other MMOs in the market, to be frank.

Aside from this, I am very frustrated by the wildly varying difficulty of of the dungeons and encounters. There seems to be a lot of “gotchas” to the mechanics behind encounters.

Sometimes a death can be avoided other times it seems random luck that 3 out of 5 mobs in a trash pull target you specifically. Or the big boss aoe spawns en masse at your location.

Now I get that the combat in Guild Wars 2 is meant to be chaotic to a degree. Not a problem. Seems a cool idea. In practice it just feels sloppy, luck based and more often than not, a zerg fest.

I feel PVE in the game is just poorly designed across the board. No more so than in the dungeons which are so wildly chaotic as to be off putting to me. I don’t really see the point of giving myself a headache over them- it’s not very fun.

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Posted by: Synthesis.6709

Synthesis.6709

Exotic armor should NOT be easy to get

I can get a single piece of exotic armor by farming in Orr for 30 minutes through crafting alone so that’s already not correct.

The issue is that you are spending much more time (and money through repairs) doing bugged or flawed dungeons to get an armor skin.

I mean sure it’s optional but with the ridiculous price point on each piece I might as well not bother and save myself the frustration. I got the best gear in the game already that tailors to my playstyle, what incentive do I have now to do dungeons then?

And no, getting one-shot while wearing full toughness and healing power gear as a GUARDIAN, exploiting terrain/events, or zerg rushing from the graveyard is not my idea of “fun.”

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Posted by: Vladia.2731

Vladia.2731

That is my mistake Synthetics.6709. I meant to say Prestige armor. Which is what the dungeon sets equate to. They have high costs because they look amazing. They look is justified by the cost. I didn’t see anyone complaining about the high cost of Obsidian armor back in GW1. Everyone was like “OMG It’s so cool! I can’t wait to save up to get that armor”.

Also,

Thank you Robert for your explanation. I’m glad to see that you’re upholding your dungeon design and not caving to the mass hysteria.

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Posted by: mattbrowne.7608

mattbrowne.7608

Hi Robert, thanks for your time and explaining your reasoning behind the changes.

Thing is, Magg aggros everything that moves now, and the respawn timers are too fast to make it anything more than just a hassle. It’s not hard to kill those trash mobs. It’s just plain excruciating and boring. Not fun. Anyway, if the whole party runs towards the magmacyte he’ll still rapidly get to us most of the times, no escorting involved.

About your second point though, a guy from one of my parties found an exploit, here’s a more detailed thread about it https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/support/bugs/Bug-in-Citadel-of-Flames-exploit-perhaps/first#post157387. Still, with the way it is made, people will still try to kite, or just mass suicide. It wasn’t a fix at all, because it’s not working as intended. What’s fun about kiting, or mass suiciding until a terribly slow timer gets to 100? Not a thing. Make it so 3 or 4 trash mobs approach Magg from the door or something, let us really defend him. Having them spawn like that? Out of thin air? It’s DA2 all over again, except they spawn too fast and hit too hard. We just have two dodges, not an infinite number of them.

Now, to your third point… I got nothing. It was a really nice change, because it was effectively too easy. It still is, but it was a change in the right direction. What I think you should do is make Gaheron a true threat and not just a fear/immobilize mob. We just ignore him. Making the flames hit harder although more threatening doesn’t change the encounter, at all. You did right with this one, though.

Please, do read this.

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Posted by: Isabella.5796

Isabella.5796

Look, I completely understand that it had to be made harder, but the timed room is just ridiculous. Even before, we are forced to kite around, because even if you focus dps on those few mobs, the next wave has already spawned, and then the next and before you know it there are 15+ elites surrounding a group of 5 people. It was doable then because 100 was just enough time to survive it. Now, by about 90% there are 20+ elites, a lot of them are ranged, and you can only dodge and pop cooldowns so many times before you just start to run around and hope that you won’t get 2 shot.. I was hit for 12k, not 4-5. Sometimes 3k 4 times in a row maybe. I play a fully exotic geared vitality thief as it is. Having a 3k leeway is hardly enough to survive the next hit.. If it’s intended for us to run in one by one and die and form some kind of suicide train from the teleport then I don’t understand. That isn’t challenging, that’s just testing how lucky you are with timing. I’ve been in CoF all day with many groups, trying many strategies. I managed to complete it once out of sheer luck and all I got was a mere 3 silver and a 20 silver repair. I just don’t understand how making it stupidly impossible is hard or “challenging” to anyone. There are other ways to alter difficulty to prevent speedruns. But this..

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Posted by: frOst.2198

frOst.2198

@ Robert

Listen, im no game designer…but i play a lot of games…many more than you (and i say that with confidence, not belittlement.).

If people are upset over this change, and you feel the dungeon was improved (and I personally agree with that sentiment), the problem lies elsewhere.

It is FAR too difficult to, well, do anything in this game. If youre going to make a change like this, lower the amount of tokens it takes to get armor.

Without doing that…you are artificially increasing the time it takes to get dungeon armor … when that wasn’t your goal to begin with.

People were happy with the amount of time it took to get CoF exotics (and honestly, it was STILL A LOT of time required). You effectively doubled it.

If I was a professional designer, id try and look at all angles when i made a change…

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Posted by: Thorn.7963

Thorn.7963

Which is why if they improved rewards and lowered costs of dungeon armor (While still keeping the effort and work required) then it wouldn’t be much of an issue!

Its that simple ANet! Just up the rewards!

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Posted by: Isabella.5796

Isabella.5796

If it is intended to fight those mobs, then WHY oh why do they spawn so fast?! We have tried targeting one mob at a time, by the time you kill 1/3 the next wave is up. Their HP and damage just seems to be too high so we are then forced to kite them around until we die and then repeat. I have yet to see any group successfully kill all of those mobs without wiping and trying over and over again. This is not a fix.

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Posted by: Vorpal.4683

Vorpal.4683

Hey folks, I’ve been reading this thread for a bit and figured I’d come weigh in on things. I built this dungeon, and fixed the problem, so I’m going to come at you from the designer perspective on things to try and illuminate why I did what I did, and what exactly I did. It wasn’t made clear, and I apologize for that.
The main thing I am seeing, is that people are upset that I took away their super profitable low risk, fast, token grind.

But you didn’t need to make any changes to CoF to take that away: the reduction in rewards for doing the same run two times or more combined with the reduction in rewards for doing them quickly already removes the super profitable fast money grind.

The only reason to do explorables, in the end, is for the tokens for your armor. I thought CoF #2 was about right for that. 70 runs? 30 minutes per run is about 35 hours. Add in the time you spend clearing the event to get the gate open and that’s 40 hours. That’s a not insignificant amount of time.

Your entire token system is poorly designed. It’s a repetitious grind. If you want the encounters to be long and hard, you need to require people to do less than 70 of them.

Additionally it is obvious that your fixes have over compensated, which irks players, and also irksome is the fact you worked very quickly to harm players my making the easiest path harder, but apparently didn’t find it pressing to work to help players by making the two other bugged paths work correctly.

I don’t think you should be surprised that people find your priorities are somewhat backwards here.

How long do you think an explorable dungeon run for 15 tokens should take, generally?

I think it’s important to answer that question.

I think 30 minutes is about right. That’s about 40 hours for your full set. An hour means 80 hours, which is two full time work weeks of time. This game isn’t supposed to be a second job. But maybe you do think it should be an hour. It’s important that everyone be on the same page here.

When one path takes 20 minutes and the other takes 2 and a half hours, there’s obviously been a huge failure here somewhere.

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Posted by: Malleusx.6092

Malleusx.6092

Hey folks, I’ve been reading this thread for a bit and figured I’d come weigh in on things. I built this dungeon, and fixed the problem, so I’m going to come at you from the designer perspective on things to try and illuminate why I did what I did, and what exactly I did. It wasn’t made clear, and I apologize for that.
The main thing I am seeing, is that people are upset that I took away their super profitable low risk, fast, token grind. I did not go into this thinking everyone would be happy with my changes – I knew I would be upsetting people because I was taking away a super easy speed-run money printer.
I took it away for a few reasons – chief among them being what I feel is taking advantage of a couple bugs found in the same chain, and our leashing/aggro system. I played with groups who did this, and watched you-tube clips of what was going on. The problems I identified with the speed run aspect of this are as follows:
1. You just need 1 person to get to the magmacyte across the magma field. This will cause an invulnerable Magg to run across the entire field through mobs and progress the dungeon. Then this person teleports back.
2. Instead of fighting the enemies in a timed event at he door buster, you just circle strafe them or leash aggro them to “kill the clock” since it was only a 100 second timer on the event.
3. Final Boss encounter isn’t threatening.
So what did I do?
1. I made it so that Magg has to get to the other side of the Magma field and close to the magmacyte – not just a player. Magg not taking aggro from nearby enemies was a big reason for this issue to be resolved. By giving him aggro, and forcing you to escort him to the ending, I fixed what I considered to be a bug/exploit that I introduced through poor planning.
2. I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them. I also added 1 additional mob to the encounter at the very middle (a bow dude) to account for you now having twice the time to defeat the waves that come in.
3. I made the fireballs hurt more. Not greatly more – they’ll do about 3-4k damage to a DPS focused player, but you should have anywhere between 15k-25k HP, so there’s a bit of wiggle room for error.

I made this path hard, because it was easy. It’s an explorable dungeon path, and they should be hard. Wearing the flame legion armor set should be a symbol of what you went through to obtain something. It should mean something. Right now it means you did 40 speedruns in 2 days.
I hope this helps a bit, but I understand you’re upset. For all it’s worth I’m sorry, and I hope we can move past this.

I am not going to criticize your design decisions, but what I will question is the decision to make these dungeons even more of a grind fest as opposed to a natural part of player progression.

It would have been much better of a decision to leave the dungeon the way it was and simply add a cap on runs on a daily basis. Big mistake.

(edited by Malleusx.6092)

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Posted by: soulcakeduck.7036

soulcakeduck.7036

I made this path hard, because it was easy. It’s an explorable dungeon path, and they should be hard. Wearing the flame legion armor set should be a symbol of what you went through to obtain something. It should mean something. Right now it means you did 40 speedruns in 2 days.

I’m really glad this is the philosophy for dungeon design. I wish the changes had been sooner or had a warning attached, and I regret that I thought I could spread the easy-grind over a few weeks and did not take advantage of it while it happened (mainly because I was not sure it would be changed). But overall this is MUCH better design, going forward, than what we had before.

This is causing some serious growing pains and non-exploiter remorse but looking past that, I admit I appreciate the work. Good job.

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Posted by: Kogasa Tatara.1409

Kogasa Tatara.1409

As other people have mentioned:

Making a 100 second timer to 200 second timer doesn’t do anything. The original mob is already too hard / too annoying to fight for most groups. Making a fight that people do by avoiding twice as long just make them either avoid the fight for twice as long or find some other ways to ignore the fight (dying three times, evidently). What should’ve done was making the fight revelent (Attack NPC; if NPC dies, exploration fails.) or offers some sort of incentive for defending properly – like… If x amount of the mob is defeated at the end of timer, offer a special chest / make rest of dungeon a little easier / give some special easter egg event. Or give player a penalty such as fighting additional popups at certain locations if they fail to reach X – making them either spend the effort there or spend the effort elsewhere.

Changing a number from 100 to 200 and changes the mob spawn by a bit seems like lazy design tweak to me, sorry. If the solution is made within 5 minutes or so after gauging the event, I can’t say much since all designers do it, but if the number change is a deliberate decision, then there are some attention to detail that you are not paying.

(edited by Kogasa Tatara.1409)

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Posted by: Reshima.2405

Reshima.2405

If GW2 Players keep complaining that they just want to farm in this game, then I’m out of this game if this is the path Arenanet will take. Seriously, this ‘farming’ community does not share the same interests as I have for this game.

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Posted by: VoiceOfUnreason.5976

VoiceOfUnreason.5976

Hey folks, I’ve been reading this thread for a bit and figured I’d come weigh in on things. I built this dungeon, and fixed the problem, so I’m going to come at you from the designer perspective on things to try and illuminate why I did what I did, and what exactly I did. It wasn’t made clear, and I apologize for that.
The main thing I am seeing, is that people are upset that I took away their super profitable low risk, fast, token grind. I did not go into this thinking everyone would be happy with my changes – I knew I would be upsetting people because I was taking away a super easy speed-run money printer.
I took it away for a few reasons – chief among them being what I feel is taking advantage of a couple bugs found in the same chain, and our leashing/aggro system. I played with groups who did this, and watched you-tube clips of what was going on. The problems I identified with the speed run aspect of this are as follows:
1. You just need 1 person to get to the magmacyte across the magma field. This will cause an invulnerable Magg to run across the entire field through mobs and progress the dungeon. Then this person teleports back.
2. Instead of fighting the enemies in a timed event at he door buster, you just circle strafe them or leash aggro them to “kill the clock” since it was only a 100 second timer on the event.
3. Final Boss encounter isn’t threatening.
So what did I do?
1. I made it so that Magg has to get to the other side of the Magma field and close to the magmacyte – not just a player. Magg not taking aggro from nearby enemies was a big reason for this issue to be resolved. By giving him aggro, and forcing you to escort him to the ending, I fixed what I considered to be a bug/exploit that I introduced through poor planning.
2. I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them. I also added 1 additional mob to the encounter at the very middle (a bow dude) to account for you now having twice the time to defeat the waves that come in.
3. I made the fireballs hurt more. Not greatly more – they’ll do about 3-4k damage to a DPS focused player, but you should have anywhere between 15k-25k HP, so there’s a bit of wiggle room for error.

I made this path hard, because it was easy. It’s an explorable dungeon path, and they should be hard. Wearing the flame legion armor set should be a symbol of what you went through to obtain something. It should mean something. Right now it means you did 40 speedruns in 2 days.
I hope this helps a bit, but I understand you’re upset. For all it’s worth I’m sorry, and I hope we can move past this.

This may be the wrong thread to post in, given the nature of the OP. However I’d like to point out that myself and many others aren’t upset over the difficulty of the dungeon, but rather the fact that dungeons themselves don’t feel rewarding. All this challenge and effort amounts to a big chest full of vendor trash and a few tokens that will eventually buy a full set of armor once I’ve run the full thing 100+ more times. In that sense, a full set of Flame Legion armor essentially represents that I’ve done 100-not-so-speedy runs in the course of several months. Sounds like a hefty amount of profit for a subscription-based game. But since you’re not…maybe you can lay off the carrot mentality just a little bit. If the ONLY reward coming out of a dungeon is some currency you can later use to buy something, that dungeon is going to become boring quick. Try adding some unique exotics with a chance to drop from the bosses in each path, or bonuses for completing all the paths of the dungeon. SOMETHING to provide some incentive to play the same thing over and over and over and over again (Which is what we have to do). I appreciate you thinking that dungeons should be fun and challenging, but things tend to stop being fun after the 30th time you’ve repeated it.

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Posted by: Vorpal.4683

Vorpal.4683

3. I made the fireballs hurt more. Not greatly more – they’ll do about 3-4k damage to a DPS focused player, but you should have anywhere between 15k-25k HP, so there’s a bit of wiggle room for error.

They hit for 12k, not 4k.

I’m utterly amazed that you think this is encounter is resaonably tuned for the players to kill the huge number of incredibly high health high damage monsters that spawn very fast out of thin air right on top of you.

People kite because killing is pretty much impossible.
The kiting actually sucks because if you get downed, you will almost certainly be finished off and take a repair hit.

In normal fights, when you get downed, someone can rezz you. No repair costs. Kiting is sub optimal to fighting these guys in every way, the only reason people were kiting is because they cannot win by fighting I found that kiting encounter the most obnoxious and hardest part of cof #2. It was the step you were most likely to wipe on. It didn’t need to be made even more so.

Like..we’ve tried focusing down the monsters. We would kill most of one mob of 3 by the time the next wave of 3 spawned.

All indications are that mob parameters in this room are THREE TIMES what you think they are. Please investigate.

This is also why most game companies test things like this before throwing them out there.

(edited by Vorpal.4683)

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Posted by: tonny.7580

tonny.7580

well it not word it not the money not the toekn and it not with bug now u need guild with full exotic set soo it realy not full people anymore path 3 is impa with random and p2 the fight the wavbes of mobs is impa becous u to low dps them the spawn faster then u cna kill them o and most people who are aggre to the GM are in full gear ardy the just one by the top guys

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Posted by: Vanisher.9216

Vanisher.9216

Great post by robert, i always figured the the “defend magg till he exploded the door” part was intended to be done by fighting and not by running.

I agree with the change, though prices should be reduced now.

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Posted by: Isabella.5796

Isabella.5796

Did you even test this fix yourself? I would love to see a video of the dev’s completing this part of CoF without suicide training.. If someone has completed this by actually killing the mobs please say so, I’d love to see just how many can pull it off as it’s “intended”

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Posted by: Tora.8610

Tora.8610

1. I made it so that Magg has to get to the other side of the Magma field and close to the magmacyte – not just a player. Magg not taking aggro from nearby enemies was a big reason for this issue to be resolved. By giving him aggro, and forcing you to escort him to the ending, I fixed what I considered to be a bug/exploit that I introduced through poor planning.
2. I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them. I also added 1 additional mob to the encounter at the very middle (a bow dude) to account for you now having twice the time to defeat the waves that come in.
3. I made the fireballs hurt more. Not greatly more – they’ll do about 3-4k damage to a DPS focused player, but you should have anywhere between 15k-25k HP, so there’s a bit of wiggle room for error.

1. Making Magg have to get to the other side is fine, I can see making people do this part….. except for the fact that right now if you get downed, you lose the extinguisher, and if Magg happened to have continued his made dash into the fire walls, you can’t get an extinguisher without rezzing him, which is complicated by the fact that he is lying dead in the middle of a giant flame wall killing both you AND him faster than he could be ressurrected. In a run I did he did JUST that… took 3 of us rezzing him at the same time (took a while to find a position where we wouldn’t die just from trying to rez him, not being bugged into staying in combat mode and barely doing any rez-heals) to get him up.. and what does he do? randomly run around STRAIGHT into a giant mass of flaming hell again. This time we couldn’t raise him… but oh, wait, someone got to the very and and he just randomly jumps up and runs to the very end… how is this any different from before aside from just being extremely buggy?

2. Instead of just 1 mob in the middle, right now it appears to be double the mobs due to double the time (plus that extra one in the center). Not to mention depending on your team setup, you may have been able to kill mobs using team work before (but slower than “optiomal”) and is now out of luck here. Most teams kited around the room before NOT because its easier, but more so because it was already hard enough killing them with all the ranged aoe mobs spawning right on top of you and the unfathomable random aggro changes. People would’ve done this part “properly” if the mobs were more reasonable… making it worse just makes people try to kite it more… in fact, I don’t think I’ve heard of anyone completing this part after the change without doing it by kiting period, where as before I’ve actually done it in teams that managed to fight and reduce the mobs (mainly the ranged mobs) a bit before being forced to run around near the end.

3. Whist this change sounds perfectly fine to me (haven’t had a chance to try as current prime-the-bomb-room tactics is a gigantic money sink compared to the rewards) I don’t know where you’re getting the 15k~25k HP numbers from. As a lvl 80 ele, in mostly rare/exotic mixed gear.. I’m topping around 12k ish… could maybe hit 15k if I went almost all vit… but having a full set of gear JUST for the dungeons is asking for a lot…. esp at the current reward rates… I’d say 15~25k hp is definitely a generous estimate unless you’re talking about thekittenguardians and warriors….

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Posted by: tonny.7580

tonny.7580

i ting the Robert Hrouda shot try the new version of hes run

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Posted by: Tearmatt.5410

Tearmatt.5410

And they say “oh we dun need tankers ~ healers” while a party only consist of Medium – Light armored players are literally getting 2- 3 hits by the mobs on the door bombing part.

I suggest if you want to stick with this kind of settings (challenging/hard) then increase the “Token Reward”from 30 at 1st to 50 then the rest of the run to 35 so it wont have to be much of a grind that we have to go through over and over again.

(edited by Tearmatt.5410)

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Posted by: Pony.3256

Pony.3256

This is going to be a major source for a lot of fresh 80 players quitting this game. Esp. in a non-guild environment.

This is so true … i am seriously thinking abt quitting due to this “buff” … just waiting for a few of my friend to be piissed over the weekend (when they do the pathetic dungeon runs) and … tada ! GOOD BYE GW2 !!

I agree.
With every update they release, the game is becoming more and more of a grind.
The fanboys are too blind to see it but whatever.
I know majority of people see it how it is.
I’m not going to waste countless hours in a dungeon for a worthless reward at the end.
Absurd.
In the state it is right now, imo, this game is awful.

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Posted by: Mordikay.8476

Mordikay.8476

In short CoF was fine the way it was and instead of buffing CoF you should have tuned the other dungeons down to match what CoF was.

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Posted by: ChairGraveyard.2967

ChairGraveyard.2967

My problem isn’t with fixing the issues with CoF #2. It’s that now ALL DUNGEONS are worthless to do. They gave you poor loot and money before, and now the only one that was even semi-worth running is also not worth it any more.

These changes will just serve to make people avoid dungeons. And with the anti-farming system making in-world play basically pointless for more than 10 minute chunks, there is very little left to do in the game.

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Posted by: tonny.7580

tonny.7580

people realy shot try the new run not today but just this momend becous ad this update was 3hs ago from this post i made