About Torment and thieves

About Torment and thieves

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Posted by: Xavori.3768

Xavori.3768

There has been much gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair about the announcement that thieves will get access to the shiny new torment condition. End of the world, sky is falling, cats and dogs living together kind of stuff.

It’s not going to be a problem.

At all.

See, those thief players who wreck you one on one while you’re trying to farm ghosts in WvW…they’re not going to be using torment. They’re running burst builds with high mobility. They’re not going to lower their alpha strike damage just so they can have a weak bleed that discourages running away. After all, they don’t need nor want conditions. They want you dead now before your friends show up. And they most certainly don’t need to discourage you from running. The only class that has a chance at running from a thief is dagger elementalist.

And the thieves that do pick up torment….pretty sure necros, guardians, shout warriors, other thieves…ya know, the classes that can shed conditions like water…will kill them long before they get in the way of you getting to that next ghost, griffon, or mithril node.

Hey I just met you – And this is crazy –
But here’s my body – So rez me maybe?

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Posted by: ricky markham.8173

ricky markham.8173

my whole take on the torment thing was to give different build to classes that didnt have a whole lot of options. i felt there by adding torment to weak lines they give the player the option to play a certain class a different way then normal. i dont think any of the classes will be op like everyone thinks just more variety

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Posted by: Zepidel.5349

Zepidel.5349

Thieves also are getting it on a venom. No good thief ever uses venoms, and btw ppl on the thief forums came up with ~2500-3000 damage over 5 seconds as a best case scenario damage outcome (every 45 seconds). My dagger auto attack crits for up to 3.2k and has a .25 second cooldown. Guess which build im going to use?

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Posted by: Meglobob.8620

Meglobob.8620

I get a new way to grief other players with my thief? Cool…

Hoping to improve on my current records…

1) Finding a zerg, picking out 1 player on the fringes usually, killing him, then cause I know where he will spawn usually and he/she will want to rejoin zerg asap for loot, you can intercept them on the way and kill them again…

Its evil, but fun and Anet want you to do it…my current record is 7, ie same player killed 7 times in a row by my thief.

2) JP’s in WvW, same trick really but even easier because they are often alone, 2-3 players and next to a big drop…my current record same poor sap killed 14 times in a row, trying to do JP, I did feel sorry for them but still tried for 15…heh a record is a record…

3) Tap a gate of a keep with a thief, stop entire enemy team using WP, so easy, for 3 minutes too…very funny…all those extra long journeys because of my thief…

4) Find enemy zerg, follow enemy zerg, a experienced wvw player like me can easily predict what the zergs intentions are…when you know they are going to assault a keep/sm, deploy supply traps…rinse and repeat till bored…

Whoever the troll is at Anet who keeps feeding my thief I salute you good sir/madam, well done!

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Posted by: Shezu Tsukai.8291

Shezu Tsukai.8291

Meglobob – you sir/ma’am are the reason people hate thieves. Lol

Seriously though I agree Torment on a venom was foolish at best.

1. Very few thieves use venoms, so up.

2. What thief needs a snare venom? Only dd ele’s can out run us and I’ve never seen one run away.

On the other hand, I’m glad Anet is working on new ideas and adding to the game.

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Posted by: Zepidel.5349

Zepidel.5349

I get a new way to grief other players with my thief? Cool…

Hoping to improve on my current records…

1) Finding a zerg, picking out 1 player on the fringes usually, killing him, then cause I know where he will spawn usually and he/she will want to rejoin zerg asap for loot, you can intercept them on the way and kill them again…

Its evil, but fun and Anet want you to do it…my current record is 7, ie same player killed 7 times in a row by my thief.

2) JP’s in WvW, same trick really but even easier because they are often alone, 2-3 players and next to a big drop…my current record same poor sap killed 14 times in a row, trying to do JP, I did feel sorry for them but still tried for 15…heh a record is a record…

3) Tap a gate of a keep with a thief, stop entire enemy team using WP, so easy, for 3 minutes too…very funny…all those extra long journeys because of my thief…

4) Find enemy zerg, follow enemy zerg, a experienced wvw player like me can easily predict what the zergs intentions are…when you know they are going to assault a keep/sm, deploy supply traps…rinse and repeat till bored…

Whoever the troll is at Anet who keeps feeding my thief I salute you good sir/madam, well done!

WvWvW is hardly real PvP, It’s just Player VS Objective and 1/2 the people there are sub 80’s with huge gear deficits. If you read my above post it’s also obvious that any thief using torment is dumb why would you waste the ultilty slot for that much damage (in a full condition spec) when pretty much and invis/stun break utility would do so much more for you.

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Posted by: Xavori.3768

Xavori.3768

Meglobob,

Nice attempt at a troll. Pity that’s not how the game works tho.

Everyone else,

The point I was making with my original post is that all of the whining about thieves and tempest is pointless. Good thieves aren’t going to use it because it will hurt their ability to do what they already excel at: winning one v one fights.

So for everyone stressing about the announcement that thieves are getting torment, don’t. That ‘buff’ to thieves isn’t. It’s just a new toy for PvE thieves to use to maybe give them some variety. However, it’s as worthless as most other conditions in wvw and pvp, so those thieves will pretty much stay the way they are.

Hey I just met you – And this is crazy –
But here’s my body – So rez me maybe?

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Posted by: AcidicVision.5498

AcidicVision.5498

Maybe venoms aren’t too hot in WvW, I wouldn’t know as I don’t WvW often. But a lot of people seriously underestimate their value in sPvP. I run venoms mainly and average between 220-300 points a match consistently. I will be happy to post some score board screen shots if anyone wants to cry BS, but you will be proven wrong.

From a strictly DPS perspective, vemons are about the worst route a thief can take. But as far as team play and utility, there is something to be said about microing vemons to lock down three opponents.

Its a beautiful thing to see a two or three enemies rolling towards a capture point that you can just stop dead in tracks and turn into kittencats while a team-mate steam rolls them. IMO that’s more valuable to the team than focusing down one target and then waiting for my burst to be ready again.

Too each their own, but vemons shouldn’t be discounted because they aren’t the flavor of the month. Which is currently S/D 3 boon ripping.

All that said. I like the Torment option and it will be fun to see what kind of things people come up with. Like stacking torment on an orb runner in Spirit Watch, or Necros stacking Torment, popping epidemic and then chain fearing.

The Kismet
Dragonbrand

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Posted by: Doomdesire.9365

Doomdesire.9365

The condition isn’t even worth it. 75%-150% damage of a bleed for the cost of a utility? Who would run that? One death blossom > scale venom. The condition is totally overrated, and unless it is available in massive amounts (such as confusion mesmers, p/d thieves, burn/confusion/poison engis) then it will be a complete flop. Nobody is going to sacrifice a utility for 1-2 stacks of torment.

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Posted by: ilr.9675

ilr.9675

ITT theorycrafting and gank apologists

Meanwhile in REAL pvp….

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Posted by: offence.4726

offence.4726

@Xavori this basically is the /thread. I cant add anything to what you said because its perfectly right.
Although im curious about the new dot condition and how it will perform in PvE with our beloved thieves.

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Posted by: Ensign.2189

Ensign.2189

They’re adding Torment to one terrible utility skill that nobody runs in a way that makes it worse that the current version. It’s a throwaway change that will have zero effect on the game.

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Posted by: Xavori.3768

Xavori.3768

@Xavori this basically is the /thread. I cant add anything to what you said because its perfectly right.
Although im curious about the new dot condition and how it will perform in PvE with our beloved thieves.

I think it’ll not help at all for thieves. I think condition bomb necros and maybe mezzies will get some mileage out of it. But condition build thieves are just so far behind in DPS versus other potential builds, and since torment looks to be really limited for thieves on top of the lower condition dps, I just don’t see it being a part of any builds.

There are a few other changes I liked. Larcenous strikes getting a initiative cost reduction is nice for my main who runs sword/dagger. Everything getting faster will help my burst thief (this is actually true for my 20 some odd other alts as well).

I’m also thinking Long Reach getting Steal to 1500 + Sleight of Hand going to 2s stun on steal + lowered recharge time on steal might be a bit much to all pile together. Yes, everyone has access more stun breakers, and most of them will have lower recharge than Steal even after the change, but I’m betting a lot of people will keep running builds without stun breakers and much forum rage will ensue as a result.

Also, interesting that nobody is complaining about that combination of changes. Might be because nobody complaining actually plays a thief and understands just how they actually work.

Hey I just met you – And this is crazy –
But here’s my body – So rez me maybe?

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Posted by: Yuujin.1067

Yuujin.1067

@Xavori this basically is the /thread. I cant add anything to what you said because its perfectly right.
Although im curious about the new dot condition and how it will perform in PvE with our beloved thieves.

I think it’ll not help at all for thieves. I think condition bomb necros and maybe mezzies will get some mileage out of it. But condition build thieves are just so far behind in DPS versus other potential builds, and since torment looks to be really limited for thieves on top of the lower condition dps, I just don’t see it being a part of any builds.

There are a few other changes I liked. Larcenous strikes getting a initiative cost reduction is nice for my main who runs sword/dagger. Everything getting faster will help my burst thief (this is actually true for my 20 some odd other alts as well).

I’m also thinking Long Reach getting Steal to 1500 + Sleight of Hand going to 2s stun on steal + lowered recharge time on steal might be a bit much to all pile together. Yes, everyone has access more stun breakers, and most of them will have lower recharge than Steal even after the change, but I’m betting a lot of people will keep running builds without stun breakers and much forum rage will ensue as a result.

Also, interesting that nobody is complaining about that combination of changes. Might be because nobody complaining actually plays a thief and understands just how they actually work.

I don’t think anyone will really benefit from Torment aside from Necromancers. I could be completely wrong, but the weapon utilizing torment on a Mesmer is a sword in the offhand? If that is the case, I’m unfamiliar with condition builds that utilize the offhand sword.

I think some of the changes in the ‘leaked patch notes’ are steps in the right direction of making pistols viable as a weapon, but not enough so in PvP just yet. We might see some pistol/dagger an pistol/pistol thieves popping up, stacking conditions, throwing in the right sigil, and trying to get some mileage out of the Torment in PvE, but I don’t really see that happening in PvP.

Yes, condition build Thieves in PvP are annoying to deal with. No, it is not the most effective build as of right now. With the 50% bounce for pistol 1, maybe they’ll be more viable.

Fortunately, for everyone worried about those pesky Dagger/Pistol thieves jumping in and out of stealth, this change is going to mean very little in dealing with them. In fact, hope that they are silly enough to add the Torment venom to their rotation. It’ll just make them that much easier to kill.

For now, welcome to the age of Necromancers. Rabid gear with Undead Runes for everyone! With Signet of the Locust they were already a pain to chase down after they conditioned you up, and getting past all that toughness and health, plus the extra health bar, was just a chore. Now you can’t even get frustrated and just try to run away from them.

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Posted by: Xavori.3768

Xavori.3768

I don’t think anyone will really benefit from Torment aside from Necromancers. I could be completely wrong, but the weapon utilizing torment on a Mesmer is a sword in the offhand? If that is the case, I’m unfamiliar with condition builds that utilize the offhand sword.

Illusionary Counter is scepter 2, and that’s the weapon skill that’s getting torment added on mezzies. Since scepter is already a good choice for condition build mezzies (and apparently getting better) it’s not out of the world unexpected that a condition mezzie will be able to add this in without too much effort.

For now, welcome to the age of Necromancers. Rabid gear with Undead Runes for everyone! With Signet of the Locust they were already a pain to chase down after they conditioned you up, and getting past all that toughness and health, plus the extra health bar, was just a chore. Now you can’t even get frustrated and just try to run away from them.

This is exactly the kind of post I was rolling my eyes at originally except vis a vis thieves.

No. It will not be the age of necromancers. Torment is only available to them via their new 5th death shroud skill.

Oh, and you lack bravery if you’re going rabid and undead. Much more exciting to live life as a necro running rampager with nightmare rune. Add in fear does damage and fear duration traits for lulz. Also helps to have played a burst thief and/or dagger elly so you get used to use movement and dodging for survival.

Hey I just met you – And this is crazy –
But here’s my body – So rez me maybe?

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Posted by: Saturn.6591

Saturn.6591

I’m also thinking Long Reach getting Steal to 1500 + Sleight of Hand going to 2s stun on steal + lowered recharge time on steal might be a bit much to all pile together. Yes, everyone has access more stun breakers, and most of them will have lower recharge than Steal even after the change,

I’m not eactly familiar with how much the Trickery line reduces the recharge time of Steal, but if the formula on the discussion page of the wiki is correct, Thieves could end up using Mug every 21 seconds. That’s damage+shadowstep+stolen item+more than 2k heal every 21 seconds. Quite nice for Thieves (if they build that way, that is).

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Posted by: rfdarko.4639

rfdarko.4639

I agree with most that it’s not a gamebreaking new ability, but it is frustrating that they give it to theives when to them it’s throw away. For me, torment sounds like an ability that NON mobile classes would benefit from – ie, necromancers. I would argue engineers would be a much better candidate for this new condition because 1) They also lack mobility and 2) they were designed with conditions in mind (see grenade kit). Giving it to thieves, who (I think someone said this above) can catch up to any class anyway, is kinda a slap in the face. In this huge balance patch, engineers have once again been given very little attention, while thieves and mesmers are getting the shiny new condition. Makes no sense to me.

(edited by rfdarko.4639)

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Posted by: Odaman.8359

Odaman.8359

Only necro got a decent version and honestly it’s less about the application and more about the immobolize at the end. I wouldn’t worry about it much.

Odaman 80 Mesmer
Maguuma

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Posted by: Dante.1508

Dante.1508

Should put it on Rangers and their pets..

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Posted by: chronometria.3708

chronometria.3708

As a condition staff ele, I would love to have this in the fire tree. The tree that otherwise nobody takes. We make big aoe and fire fields, but they do no good if people, you know, move slightly, so having this would be great news.

Instead they give it to thieves and by the sounds of it thieves wont even take it as they feel its junk. Not surprising as everything they already have is pretty amazing.

If my staff did 3500 on its auto attack, I wouldn’t need any of my abilities either, but I`m not a thief, so I have to make do with slow, easily avoided attacks and applying conditions that tend to get cured in a tick or two.

(edited by chronometria.3708)

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Posted by: Yuujin.1067

Yuujin.1067

Illusionary Counter is scepter 2, and that’s the weapon skill that’s getting torment added on mezzies. Since scepter is already a good choice for condition build mezzies (and apparently getting better) it’s not out of the world unexpected that a condition mezzie will be able to add this in without too much effort.

Thanks for clarifying. That’s actually good to hear. When I first read about the change all I could think about was how rare it was to see people floating around with the sword offhand, so hearing that it is on scepters is a step in the right direction.

This is exactly the kind of post I was rolling my eyes at originally except vis a vis thieves.

No. It will not be the age of necromancers. Torment is only available to them via their new 5th death shroud skill.

Oh, and you lack bravery if you’re going rabid and undead. Much more exciting to live life as a necro running rampager with nightmare rune. Add in fear does damage and fear duration traits for lulz. Also helps to have played a burst thief and/or dagger elly so you get used to use movement and dodging for survival.

My post about Necromancers was mostly in jest to mirror the attitude presented in this thread about Thieves receiving Torment. There are worse, more annoying things out there than condition Necromancers.

While I stand by my original assessment that Necromancers will get the most out of Torment for obvious reasons, they all get it, I don’t actually think Torment is going to be the Condition that broke the camels back.