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Posted by: VOLKON.1290

VOLKON.1290

Wait a second! You mean that there is actually strategy in Combat right now outside of “Press 1 to Win!”?

Because not including PvP, what I just said is almost always the case. And besides, I was never talking about Healer in the effect of making it the only role a profession has available to it at that time. However, making Healing Power, etc more effective for people who actually invest in it, instead of very obviously making it and every other stat not scale even half as well as power is a problem, and is the main killer in build diversity right now.

I spend most of my time in WvW, so yes, I see actual strategy in combat right now well outside “press 1 to win”. I’ve yet to see a game where in the PvE zones, especially the lower level ones, “press 1 to win” didn’t apply (and usually to a much greater extent than in GW2). You don’t need to break combat to fix that, you need to grab the mobs by the throat, shake them around a few times until they pay attention, then teach them some new tricks such that “press 1 to win” will no longer apply in PvE. When the first beta opened up, the mobs were tough. I mean, I never died so many times in low level zones in any game as I did then. I loved it, absolutely loved it. I actually had to really learn the combat to survive and move on. If they’d bring that back I’d probably squeal with delight (but never admit it… it’s not manly).

But yeah, combat is deep and requires strategy (against other people at least), and that’s what needs to be enhanced upon as opposed to pigeon-holing characters into specific roles via sub-classes.

#TeamJadeQuarry

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

You don’t need to break combat to fix that, you need to grab the mobs by the throat, shake them around a few times until they pay attention, then teach them some new tricks such that “press 1 to win” will no longer apply in PvE.

If you just heard cheering as if from a great distance and in the direction of California…

That was me.

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

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Posted by: Chrispy.5641

Chrispy.5641

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

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Posted by: Romo.3709

Romo.3709

I know I’ve suggested this before, but I will repeat it again: Underflow servers.

The root of all Horizontal Progression is the community. Chasing after nice aesthetics are pointless without other players to show it off to and interact with.

Please bring the community back to your game. We need underflow servers before Horizontal Progression even has a meaning.

Personally I think Underflow Servers are very important to. I do however think that your final sentence is a bit over the top (-:

Chris

The underflow servers also cause some minor issues as well. For example, we meet a lot of people on our adventures, form guilds, invite into existing guilds, and so on. If underflow servers go live, everywhere we’d go outside of main areas, we’d end up in underflow. While inviting people to your guilds while they’re located in another server would have no purpose, since the bonuses and influence acquirement doesn’t work cross-servers.

On the side note some of the most satisfying times I’ve had in GW2 was while map exploring by myself or with a friend, climbing mountains in the middle of nowhere. Taking a second while standing on top of the cliff looking around at the beautiful area surrounding me, with animals roaming around in wilderness. Underflows would destroy that feeling making it look like another Queensdale. But then again, that’s an adventurer in me speaking.

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

We’ve seen that already. The Tower of Nightmares and undodgeable damage ticks from perma-Toxin did a fine job of carpeting the ground with the corpses of glass cannon ‘zerkers, while my tough-love perma-regen Warrior just sort of strolled through the place. I’d also say the general reduction of vigor across all professions was a direct attempt to curb ’zerk’s monopoly on all-damage stats with dodge as the universal panacea defensively. And while the complete immunity to crits some world bosses enjoy stabs quite a few gear-sets in the eye, its not a coincidence that ’Zerker is highly penalized under those conditions.

Its a problem they’re clearly aware of. I see those things as experiments – the hammer hasn’t actually come down yet.

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

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Posted by: VOLKON.1290

VOLKON.1290

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

And how is this relevant to the fact that sub-classes run the risk of pigeon-holing professions into roles when by design we’re meant to take a more balanced approach to combat, encompassing elements of damage, control and support?

Oh, wait… the zerker PvE types, I remember them! Back in the Halloween event, the Labyrinth I believe it was… bosses in there like the candy corn dude would be surrounded by their corpses until others would come along and add more to the combat than simply “press 1 to win”, like well timed Feedback bubbles right as he was launching his candy corn bombs into the crowds or Null Fields around those unfortunate enough to not be paying attention and needed some condition removal in order to survive. Ah yes, good times… good times.

#TeamJadeQuarry

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Posted by: Karizee.8076

Karizee.8076

On the side note some of the most satisfying times I’ve had in GW2 was while map exploring by myself or with a friend, climbing mountains in the middle of nowhere. Taking a second while standing on top of the cliff looking around at the beautiful area surrounding me, with animals roaming around in wilderness. Underflows would destroy that feeling making it look like another Queensdale. But then again, that’s an adventurer in me speaking.

I agree with this – we really don’t need massive amounts of players on every map, it’s nice to strike off into the wilderness and get away from the madding crowds from time to time

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Posted by: Morrigan.2809

Morrigan.2809

I know I’ve suggested this before, but I will repeat it again: Underflow servers.

The root of all Horizontal Progression is the community. Chasing after nice aesthetics are pointless without other players to show it off to and interact with.

Please bring the community back to your game. We need underflow servers before Horizontal Progression even has a meaning.

Personally I think Underflow Servers are very important to. I do however think that your final sentence is a bit over the top (-:

Chris

The underflow servers also cause some minor issues as well. For example, we meet a lot of people on our adventures, form guilds, invite into existing guilds, and so on. If underflow servers go live, everywhere we’d go outside of main areas, we’d end up in underflow. While inviting people to your guilds while they’re located in another server would have no purpose, since the bonuses and influence acquirement doesn’t work cross-servers.

On the side note some of the most satisfying times I’ve had in GW2 was while map exploring by myself or with a friend, climbing mountains in the middle of nowhere. Taking a second while standing on top of the cliff looking around at the beautiful area surrounding me, with animals roaming around in wilderness. Underflows would destroy that feeling making it look like another Queensdale. But then again, that’s an adventurer in me speaking.

I agree with this- I love my server and it has a very nice community- I have to go out of the way to be alone and even then I run into people in the strangest places- this has resulted in some truly epic fights.

The most fun and memorable moments in this game to me has been when running around the wilderness
.
Doing events with a few people or by myself made me feel much more of a hero and gives me much more satisfaction that flipping Balthazar in 10 min from scratch with a zerg

I would hate for that to be destroyed just to be lumped up with a bunch of strangers

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

So sub classes would be the same thing as we have now with traits and gear, but within a drop down menu? Can someone enlighten me why this is better than the current system (which still needs fixing and expanding, but thats another story)?

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Posted by: Chrispy.5641

Chrispy.5641

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

And how is this relevant to the fact that sub-classes run the risk of pigeon-holing professions into roles when by design we’re meant to take a more balanced approach to combat, encompassing elements of damage, control and support?

Oh, wait… the zerker PvE types, I remember them! Back in the Halloween event, the Labyrinth I believe it was… bosses in there like the candy corn dude would be surrounded by their corpses until others would come along and add more to the combat than simply “press 1 to win”, like well timed Feedback bubbles right as he was launching his candy corn bombs into the crowds or Null Fields around those unfortunate enough to not be paying attention and needed some condition removal in order to survive. Ah yes, good times… good times.

Ah yes, great times, especially since I ran full zerker during halloween, and I just simply reflected his candy corn bombs back at him. Never died while fighting him once. Still did nothing for the fact that I was running around in Zerker gear, same weapons, and same style of play, and it is the exact same build I am running now, and the same build I was running last January. Nothing has changed.

And Build Diversity is the whole point (that you keep mising somehow). Combat is starting to get Stale, and thats why you see a large number of people suggesting sub class ideas and skill expansion, so that way there can be an increase in build diversity, not keep it the same for another five years until Guild Wars 3 comes out.

And who ever said that a Sub-Class would pigeonhole you into specifically healing or Tanking, or control, or support? You have a very closed minded way of thinking about how a system like that would work, and you should obviously think about that a little more.

So sub classes would be the same thing as we have now with traits and gear, but within a drop down menu? Can someone enlighten me why this is better than the current system (which still needs fixing and expanding, but thats another story)?

Read those sub class ideas a little harder. 90% of them were concieved as ways to expand the Trait system, not to create a whole new systrem.

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Posted by: VOLKON.1290

VOLKON.1290

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

And how is this relevant to the fact that sub-classes run the risk of pigeon-holing professions into roles when by design we’re meant to take a more balanced approach to combat, encompassing elements of damage, control and support?

Oh, wait… the zerker PvE types, I remember them! Back in the Halloween event, the Labyrinth I believe it was… bosses in there like the candy corn dude would be surrounded by their corpses until others would come along and add more to the combat than simply “press 1 to win”, like well timed Feedback bubbles right as he was launching his candy corn bombs into the crowds or Null Fields around those unfortunate enough to not be paying attention and needed some condition removal in order to survive. Ah yes, good times… good times.

Ah yes, great times, especially since I ran full zerker during halloween, and I just simply reflected his candy corn bombs back at him. Never died while fighting him once. Still did nothing for the fact that I was running around in Zerker gear, same weapons, and same style of play, and it is the exact same build I am running now, and the same build I was running last January. Nothing has changed.

Ah, very nice example of not pressing 1 to win! Thank you for supporting my argument.

By the way, I’m all for expanding traits and even skills. Completely for it! Just… not at the expense of diversity. If it’s done in a way that forces people into artificial roles it’ll be damaging to the game in the sense that there will be a drift away from the “play as you want” or “any profession” paradigm. There are traits already that broaden combat beautifully… for example there are two different mesmer traits that add a confuse and a blind when foes enter a glamour field. This is WONDERFUL! I can use, for example, Feedback on an enemy warrior to support an ally not against projectiles but by blinding (preventing an attack) and adding confusion onto the warrior where before I wouldn’t use feedback at all in that situation. THIS is what we need more of in my opinion… more depth to combat, more means to step out of roles and add greater versatility to combat as well as a need to truly know your skills to get the greatest effect.

#TeamJadeQuarry

(edited by VOLKON.1290)

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Posted by: Chrispy.5641

Chrispy.5641

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

And how is this relevant to the fact that sub-classes run the risk of pigeon-holing professions into roles when by design we’re meant to take a more balanced approach to combat, encompassing elements of damage, control and support?

Oh, wait… the zerker PvE types, I remember them! Back in the Halloween event, the Labyrinth I believe it was… bosses in there like the candy corn dude would be surrounded by their corpses until others would come along and add more to the combat than simply “press 1 to win”, like well timed Feedback bubbles right as he was launching his candy corn bombs into the crowds or Null Fields around those unfortunate enough to not be paying attention and needed some condition removal in order to survive. Ah yes, good times… good times.

Ah yes, great times, especially since I ran full zerker during halloween, and I just simply reflected his candy corn bombs back at him. Never died while fighting him once. Still did nothing for the fact that I was running around in Zerker gear, same weapons, and same style of play, and it is the exact same build I am running now, and the same build I was running last January. Nothing has changed.

Ah, very nice example of not pressing 1 to win! Thank you for supporting my argument.

Except that when I say “Press 1 to Win”, I also mean “Press the exact same keys that you did for the last two years to Win”. Those are the same thing in my book. I could care less if they are in yours. They both require the same pathetic amount of tactics and brain power in order to do, and if you are okay with that, hey, that’s your thing. For everyone else, We want more skills so that way we can actually expand on the ways we play the game instead of doing a mirror image of what we did last year and the year before.

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Posted by: VOLKON.1290

VOLKON.1290

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

And how is this relevant to the fact that sub-classes run the risk of pigeon-holing professions into roles when by design we’re meant to take a more balanced approach to combat, encompassing elements of damage, control and support?

Oh, wait… the zerker PvE types, I remember them! Back in the Halloween event, the Labyrinth I believe it was… bosses in there like the candy corn dude would be surrounded by their corpses until others would come along and add more to the combat than simply “press 1 to win”, like well timed Feedback bubbles right as he was launching his candy corn bombs into the crowds or Null Fields around those unfortunate enough to not be paying attention and needed some condition removal in order to survive. Ah yes, good times… good times.

Ah yes, great times, especially since I ran full zerker during halloween, and I just simply reflected his candy corn bombs back at him. Never died while fighting him once. Still did nothing for the fact that I was running around in Zerker gear, same weapons, and same style of play, and it is the exact same build I am running now, and the same build I was running last January. Nothing has changed.

Ah, very nice example of not pressing 1 to win! Thank you for supporting my argument.

Except that when I say “Press 1 to Win”, I also mean “Press the exact same keys that you did for the last two years to Win”. Those are the same thing in my book. I could care less if they are in yours. They both require the same pathetic amount of tactics and brain power in order to do, and if you are okay with that, hey, that’s your thing. For everyone else, We want more skills so that way we can actually expand on the ways we play the game instead of doing a mirror image of what we did last year and the year before.

Hey, I ran great sword/sword-focus on my mesmer for a long time, and still could be, but I decided to switch things up… redid the traits and now am giving staff/scepter-focus a go. It’s a completely different feel to combat now, and I’ve had to relearn what the skills to at depth, new synergies, new observations, etc. If you’re stagnant it’s by choice.

#TeamJadeQuarry

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Posted by: Jaken.6801

Jaken.6801

Ok so I am heading out for the day and will be back later.

Meanwhile please keep the conversation going in regard to Sub Classes. I do appreciate that the initial reaction is to do a separate CDI on it, but I would like to see if we feel it could be part of a Horizontal Progression proposal at this stage or that we think it is currently not relevant and thus making it a topic for the future makes sense.

I am going to bump the phase post I did a few days ago as well to get some more opinions on the groups ‘Ones’.

Chris

Well, i am vocal against sub classes already. Simply because i do not think they are needed in the current progression system.

Sub classes in general are a great idea to differentiate already existing classes into more directed roles.
Best example for this would be your standard warrior choosing between the way of a two weapon fighting style for max offense, or a great shield for max defense.
These choices come with their own skills and equipment.

So it is basically a skill and design progression.

It is a great system, but for other games.

Guild Wars 2 already has something like this in place. It is called traits and skills.
The limited amount of trait points forces you to choose the abilities of your character.
You can never have all skills or traits at the same time.
You are already able to choose between different play styles in a class alone.

different aspects of sub classes
What other things do traditional sub classes bring to the table?

- A new layer to play with (aka the sub class itself)
While a clear distinction between classes between individual members of this particular group would be nice. i think it does not make much sense with the current system in place, beside saying: “ey, i am a berserker warrior, huah.” “who cares, i am a max def crusader, you wont get me down”

- Something new to aquire
Sub classes usually have to be unlocked. This usually is done by a class specific questline, in which the character earns the right or skills for this particular direction of his class.
Again, we are allready going this way. We have a diverse system already in place. If people are looking for new skills. We are already see signs of them coming into the game.

- New design:
A subclass usually comes with it`s own distinctive design to differentiate it from other players of the same class. (again, double weapon against shield for example in other games) Sometimes it is a particular art design, sometimes it completly changes how skills look, etc.
This again can be done with the current system.
Classes already have access to a wide variety of weapons and traits to go for different roles.
Classes already are able wear the armor they want (in the limit of the game mechanics of course) if we go from a visual appearance.
The visual appearance of skills is something that can be done several ways. We have weapons changing projectiles. So there could be certain traits actively changing the appearance of prominent skills. For example blade mastery for a warrior could make the effects more epic.
Putting more points into a trait, or finishing a line with 30 points could also create an effect.

Simply said. We do not have to put in sub classes to use their effects. splitting the existing system would just create more things to balance out.
Expanding and adjusting the already existing systems in game has the same effect as implementing sub classes into the game.

I love the system. i played some great with it. However, i do not think that the current GW2 does require such a progression structure.

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Posted by: Chrispy.5641

Chrispy.5641

Until then, while in the confines of PvE, Press 1 to win! Then once you powerbomb the mobs into submission and force feed them into learning new tactics, let me know how that affects build diversity when every player is still taking Zerker only gear.

And how is this relevant to the fact that sub-classes run the risk of pigeon-holing professions into roles when by design we’re meant to take a more balanced approach to combat, encompassing elements of damage, control and support?

Oh, wait… the zerker PvE types, I remember them! Back in the Halloween event, the Labyrinth I believe it was… bosses in there like the candy corn dude would be surrounded by their corpses until others would come along and add more to the combat than simply “press 1 to win”, like well timed Feedback bubbles right as he was launching his candy corn bombs into the crowds or Null Fields around those unfortunate enough to not be paying attention and needed some condition removal in order to survive. Ah yes, good times… good times.

Ah yes, great times, especially since I ran full zerker during halloween, and I just simply reflected his candy corn bombs back at him. Never died while fighting him once. Still did nothing for the fact that I was running around in Zerker gear, same weapons, and same style of play, and it is the exact same build I am running now, and the same build I was running last January. Nothing has changed.

Ah, very nice example of not pressing 1 to win! Thank you for supporting my argument.

Except that when I say “Press 1 to Win”, I also mean “Press the exact same keys that you did for the last two years to Win”. Those are the same thing in my book. I could care less if they are in yours. They both require the same pathetic amount of tactics and brain power in order to do, and if you are okay with that, hey, that’s your thing. For everyone else, We want more skills so that way we can actually expand on the ways we play the game instead of doing a mirror image of what we did last year and the year before.

Hey, I ran great sword/sword-focus on my mesmer for a long time, and still could be, but I decided to switch things up… redid the traits and now am giving staff/scepter-focus a go. It’s a completely different feel to combat now, and I’ve had to relearn what the skills to at depth, new synergies, new observations, etc. If you’re stagnant it’s by choice.

Except, thats the same build that other players have been running for the last year. It doesn’t matter that you finally decided to change your build. Other players have many times changed their style of gameplay, but the end result is still “Deal more damage than the other guy”. Its still Stagnant. Its still Pungent. It still smells like the soda you left on the counter a week ago, and now its fermenting. Seriously, your differennce in gameplay that you just described is the same as the difference between Coke, Pepsi, and Offbrand cola. They are all still cola, and no one is going to care that you drink off brand instead of a different version.

I have 8 total armor sets now for my ranger, and I have went through hundreds of combinations, but, according to the forums, and my own experience, nothing beats brain dead Zerker mode. The Weapon combination and Trait combination does not matter, the fact is, is that your goal is to still do more damage than the other guy (NPC, boss, whatever), and there is no layer of strategy or tactics under that, because everyone has been using the same strategy for over a year.

Hey, if you want to run the same builds that every other player has been running for over a year, and call that good, go on ahead, but, we still need more build diversity, regardless of whether you finally decided to change your build or not.

(edited by Chrispy.5641)

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Posted by: VOLKON.1290

VOLKON.1290

Hey, I ran great sword/sword-focus on my mesmer for a long time, and still could be, but I decided to switch things up… redid the traits and now am giving staff/scepter-focus a go. It’s a completely different feel to combat now, and I’ve had to relearn what the skills to at depth, new synergies, new observations, etc. If you’re stagnant it’s by choice.

Except, thats the same build that other players have been running for the last year. It doesn’t matter that you finally decided to change your build. Other players have many times changed their style of gameplay, but the end result is still “Deal more damage than the other guy”. Its still Stagnant. Its still Pungent. It still smells like the soda you left on the counter a week ago, and now its fermenting. Seriously, your differennce in gameplay that you just described is the same as the difference between Coke, Pepsi, and Offbrand cola. They are all still cola, and no one is going to care that you drink off brand instead of a different version.

I have 8 total armor sets now for my ranger, and I have went through hundreds of combinations, but, according to the forums, and my own experience, nothing beats brain dead Zerker mode. The Weapon combination and Trait combination does not matter, the fact is, is that your goal is to still do more damage than the other guy (NPC, boss, whatever), and there is no layer of strategy or tactics under that, because everyone has been using the same strategy for over a year.

Hey, if you want to run the same builds that every other player has been running for over a year, and call that good, go on ahead, but, we still need more build diversity, regardless of whether you finally decided to change your build or not.

I don’t know if it’s the same build others have run or not… I didn’t check. And no… it’s not about dealing more damage with my choices, it’s about helping the group out more and winning the fights as a team. Individually I’ve noticed that this build isn’t as effective (1v1), however in a group it’s a lot more effective overall. It plays completely differently than the gs/sword-focus build from before.

Again, I’m not against build diversity in the least. More depth to the skills, more balance across d/c/s, more need to learn the intricacies of the skills and gain a knowledge of when a better time to use them is a wonderful thing. However, if a sub-class system winds up pigeon-holing people into more specialized roles that’s a horrible choice. Sub-classes run the risk of leading to specialization, and that leads to elitism and the rejection of perfectly capable players and characters simply because they don’t meet the paradigm of the day.

Imagine a trait where I had the option to pop a feedback bubble to blind or knock down foes in the area? Imagine a trait where grasping earth would, if on a foe that was knocked down, prevent them from getting up a little longer, or perhaps add a bleed or extend the duration of existing conditions? Things like this would add elements to combat that require you to actually consider your skills a little harder and take better advantage of situations at hand. Perhaps it’s better to leave feedback up for the duration, or perhaps the enemy isn’t firing projectiles so feedback can be used in a whole different way. THAT’S the type of trait/skill enhancements we need, not something that has the potential to remove diversity.

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Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

DiogoSilva.7089

If an elementalist suddenly gets a sub-class that is more proficient at group healing guess what everyone is going to demand from the ele’s in their group… yep. A signet build with an additional signet doesn’t become more specialized in a role simply for having another signet. The new signet can easily add a balance of damage, control and/or support and avoid specialization altogether.

Elementalists have already gotten more proficient at group healing with the new Arcane Brilliance’s blast-finisher heal skill. So as you can see, new skills can and will make roles more efficient.

Elementalist.

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Posted by: Jaken.6801

Jaken.6801

How does restricting what people can wear by subclass give more ways for people to look different?
Forgive me for not seeing the logic in what you’re saying.

Look!

Think about 1 Million Players… Each one of them wanting to be with their characters as unique as possible. Ask yourself, how do you reach this goal to satisfy everyones wishes/taste to truly make unique characters?

The simple answer is: You give them options! The more, so better.

With the current way how the game works, everybody who plays the same class, can exactly work and look the same. Its all just a matter of a few clicks of resetting your traits, changing your weapon and utilities/healing skill and et voila, you can copy someone else without any problem.
But Sub Class Skills can’t be just so easily copied, if your character isn’t of the same sub class. Its just a little option more to diversify characters.
Here in the point, mostly about characters that are of the same main profession.

I want to be as unique as possible, but that also among my Class that I play.
Traits aren’t enough for me, because they can simply be changed in a blink of an eye and all palyers of the same option have the same access to them and lead to the point, that an other player with the same class playing as you works exactly the same way, once he/she just copies only your weapon, utilities and your traits.

There needs to be simply more diversification options, that are gameplay relative, to individualize our characters to a greater detail of depth, especially among the same class playing.

- snip-

So in the end they are useless. If everyone can retrait and change them, in the long run everyone can do it.
Sorry first you say you give them options, then restrict them to open them up again.

In the end it does nothing the current system already does.
I just do not see the point.

If i go and respec my traits or switch my subclass. no difference.

I know where you are coming from, but please take a step back, look what we already have and then think about what would actually change.

If you want new flavor, or the “flavor of a sub class” system then there are different ways already ingame and possible able to be added beside focusing on a “useless” differentiation system that would result in a balancing and design hell. (which we would have to wait for. Much longer then we do for new skills and visuals already)

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Posted by: VOLKON.1290

VOLKON.1290

If an elementalist suddenly gets a sub-class that is more proficient at group healing guess what everyone is going to demand from the ele’s in their group… yep. A signet build with an additional signet doesn’t become more specialized in a role simply for having another signet. The new signet can easily add a balance of damage, control and/or support and avoid specialization altogether.

Elementalists have already gotten more proficient at group healing with the new Arcane Brilliance’s blast-finisher heal skill. So as you can see, new skills can and will make roles more efficient.

If that’s the case and if ANet sees players being forced into roles due to the skills, then the skills should be addressed to remove that pigeon-holing instead of the system being modified to push it further. If that skill (I have no idea if true or not) is forcing elementalists into more dedicated roles then the skill should be changed to reintroduce player flexibility to the profession.

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Posted by: Chrispy.5641

Chrispy.5641

Hey, I ran great sword/sword-focus on my mesmer for a long time, and still could be, but I decided to switch things up… redid the traits and now am giving staff/scepter-focus a go. It’s a completely different feel to combat now, and I’ve had to relearn what the skills to at depth, new synergies, new observations, etc. If you’re stagnant it’s by choice.

Except, thats the same build that other players have been running for the last year. It doesn’t matter that you finally decided to change your build. Other players have many times changed their style of gameplay, but the end result is still “Deal more damage than the other guy”. Its still Stagnant. Its still Pungent. It still smells like the soda you left on the counter a week ago, and now its fermenting. Seriously, your differennce in gameplay that you just described is the same as the difference between Coke, Pepsi, and Offbrand cola. They are all still cola, and no one is going to care that you drink off brand instead of a different version.

I have 8 total armor sets now for my ranger, and I have went through hundreds of combinations, but, according to the forums, and my own experience, nothing beats brain dead Zerker mode. The Weapon combination and Trait combination does not matter, the fact is, is that your goal is to still do more damage than the other guy (NPC, boss, whatever), and there is no layer of strategy or tactics under that, because everyone has been using the same strategy for over a year.

Hey, if you want to run the same builds that every other player has been running for over a year, and call that good, go on ahead, but, we still need more build diversity, regardless of whether you finally decided to change your build or not.

I don’t know if it’s the same build others have run or not… I didn’t check. And no… it’s not about dealing more damage with my choices, it’s about helping the group out more and winning the fights as a team. Individually I’ve noticed that this build isn’t as effective (1v1), however in a group it’s a lot more effective overall. It plays completely differently than the gs/sword-focus build from before.

Again, I’m not against build diversity in the least. More depth to the skills, more balance across d/c/s, more need to learn the intricacies of the skills and gain a knowledge of when a better time to use them is a wonderful thing. However, if a sub-class system winds up pigeon-holing people into more specialized roles that’s a horrible choice. Sub-classes run the risk of leading to specialization, and that leads to elitism and the rejection of perfectly capable players and characters simply because they don’t meet the paradigm of the day.

Imagine a trait where I had the option to pop a feedback bubble to blind or knock down foes in the area? Imagine a trait where grasping earth would, if on a foe that was knocked down, prevent them from getting up a little longer, or perhaps add a bleed or extend the duration of existing conditions? Things like this would add elements to combat that require you to actually consider your skills a little harder and take better advantage of situations at hand. Perhaps it’s better to leave feedback up for the duration, or perhaps the enemy isn’t firing projectiles so feedback can be used in a whole different way. THAT’S the type of trait/skill enhancements we need, not something that has the potential to remove diversity.

Oh, I get you now!!!! Except that, no wait, that was exactly what I was talking about for, oh…. the last 30 pages or so, so, why are you arguing with me again?

Oh, and elitism already exists in Dungeons where many (not all) groups require a Ranger to run Spotter and Frost spirit, or they are ‘useles’, so everything you fear, just like Specialization, is in the game already. You can run from it, but it will outrun you

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Posted by: VOLKON.1290

VOLKON.1290

Oh, I get you now!!!! Except that, no wait, that was exactly what I was talking about for, oh…. the last 30 pages or so, so, why are you arguing with me again?

Oh, and elitism already exists in Dungeons where many (not all) groups require a Ranger to run Spotter and Frost spirit, or they are ‘useles’, so everything you fear, just like Specialization, is in the game already. You can run from it, but it will outrun you

I think you started it. I was simply pointing out concerns that sub-classes have the risk of adding specializations when what would fit the combat as a whole was greater diversities and depth instead. And yes, there are those that seem to require (unnecessarily) professions to be ‘this’ or ‘that’, but those individuals are pretty much a pox within the game and should not be further encouraged.

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Posted by: thehipone.6812

thehipone.6812

Can’t really read this whole thread – skimmed first few pages and last pages.
My votes:

-Hate the sub-class idea. It’s either stronger (and therefore will lead to LFG War-BestSub ONLY) or irrelevant in the current trait system. And the idea that I can only wear a certain class armor if I specialize a certain way? No thanks. Others have typed out the long arguments, I don’t need to do it again.

-Love the skin locker/wardrobe ideas.

-I would love to see more things along the lines of the fractal weapons – account bound rare stuff from specific content. I’d like to see dungeon or event exclusive skins (for example like the items in the last column here: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dungeon).
The thing that I feel this game lacks is any sort of excitement that something good will drop. Aside from a precursor, nearly every weapon or armor drop is straight to the TP/MF flushed/salvaged. The exclusive temple jewelry drops like Signet of Grenth are neat and on the right track imo, but you can’t see jewelry.

-Housing I’m indifferent to. A hall of monuments style thing in the home instance might be neat and would fit with the achievement focus that the game seems to have taken on.

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Posted by: ColinJohanson

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Reading through a lot of the comments on various class diversification (or just stronger trait/skill diversification) concepts, one of the things that seems to be missing is a discussion on how you’d actually earn/unlock these additional abilities to make it a progression system.

One of the goals of progression, in this case horizontal, is to create an extended sense of game play and thus = reward for playing it.

For example, we’ve added more skills to the game recently, but those simply unlock with skill points, which basically means → play any part of the game that gives exp, or kill champs to get skill point books. That’s ok as systems of unlocking horizontal progression go for the extended class diversification, but game play wise it generally means find the easiest place to get XP/champ-loot and do it over and over again for a large % of players, since folks most often gravitate towards the path of least resistance.

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

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Posted by: Romo.3709

Romo.3709

I have 8 total armor sets now for my ranger, and I have went through hundreds of combinations, but, according to the forums, and my own experience, nothing beats brain dead Zerker mode. The Weapon combination and Trait combination does not matter, the fact is, is that your goal is to still do more damage than the other guy (NPC, boss, whatever), and there is no layer of strategy or tactics under that, because everyone has been using the same strategy for over a year.

You either want to run more diversity or more damage. With more skills at your disposal, with the mind set of a zerker, they don’t matter. If they release skills that revolve around mechanics rather than damage output it’ll be the same for you as if they didn’t release anything at all.

Sometimes staying alive means more than damage output. And every zerker out there will disagree with that statement. Although Teq fight showed us quite well what Anet’s take is on zerkers. Since you can’t crit him. Dungeons is a whole different experience. But at the same time, from my experience, 90% of zerker warriors go down before any other zerker class.

At the same time, being a zerker ranger has a different feel than being a zerker warrior. You have evading skills you learned on your journey, while most warriors just stand there taking damage expecting the boss to go down before they do, which is never the case if the entire party is not full zerkers.

There’s a lot of talk on how the zerker gear is the best (which it is in most cases), but at the same time, you have to know how to play it. With the new players coming into the game hearing zerker this and zerker that, they get the gear thinking it’ll improve the way they play and make them stronger. It does make them stronger, but at the same time it makes them weaker resulting in a burden to the whole party.

Regardless the point, new skills would be great addition to the gameplay overall. Make some builds feel more fresh and new. At the same time, don’t focus new skills on power, because in the end it will end up being out-of-balance, and the certain build we worked on so hard will end up being nerfed resulting (in some cases) in getting new gear and create another grind.

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Posted by: Zone.1275

Zone.1275

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

I think special dynamic events could be one way. Currently some dynamic events open up special vendors to buy little knick knacks. For example, if in Brisban Wildlands there was a special dynamic event chain where you help the Skritt King in some way and after the events are over you can buy a new skill from him with skill points.

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Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

DiogoSilva.7089

Let’s keep things simple

Subclass Traiting System

  • Expand the number of traitlines available to each profession.
  • Make most of the traitlines (and each of their respective tiers) collectible through levels, quests, tome collection and boss hunting.
  • Give an unique subclass flavor to each traitline (already happens to a certain extent). This also implies a redesign of the current traitlines and different trait allocation.
  • Have each traitline offer traits that more deeply affect weapon’s skills, core profession mechanic skills and the profession as a whole.

This would basically be an expansion of the current trait system, with a stronger subclass flavor.

Opportunities for more Horizontal Progression with this system

  • Enhanced world exploration (new quests, boss hunting, tome collecting).
  • New acchievements tied to new subclass-driven content.
  • More variations of pre-defined skill sets (more weapon traits, more core mechanic traits).
  • Higher stat customisation, because traitlines would eventually start offering stats other traitlines already do.

Other advantages

  • Journey to lv.80 will be more exciting/ diversified.
  • Character customisation will continue beyond max level.
  • Character customisation will not be as underwhelming after the first few levels.
  • Easier to expand the system by adding more trait lines over the time (each new traitline addition would mean three new collectible tiers to be found around the world).
  • Enhanced world immersion.
  • Stronger build flavor for two reasons: subclasses would have more evocative names, and the pre-defined flavor for each traitline would not clash directly with efficiency. Players would be able to choose the best traits for each traitline without sacrificing flavor, because flavor is already pre-defined. The current trait system can already do this, but due to the geometrical and rigid 5 traitline setup, it is both too restrictive and too broad.
  • Subclass flavor can work as a source of inspiration for Anet’s designers to create new effects, without being “stuck” to the current, rigid traitline structure.

If anyone believes my proposal would be worse than the current system we have in place, please, I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Elementalist.

(edited by DiogoSilva.7089)

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Posted by: VOLKON.1290

VOLKON.1290

Reading through a lot of the comments on various class diversification (or just stronger trait/skill diversification) concepts, one of the things that seems to be missing is a discussion on how you’d actually earn/unlock these additional abilities to make it a progression system.

One of the goals of progression, in this case horizontal, is to create an extended sense of game play and thus = reward for playing it.

For example, we’ve added more skills to the game recently, but those simply unlock with skill points, which basically means -> play any part of the game that gives exp, or kill champs to get skill point books. That’s ok as systems of unlocking horizontal progression go for the extended class diversification, but game play wise it generally means find the easiest place to get XP/champ-loot and do it over and over again for a large % of players, since folks most often gravitate towards the path of least resistance.

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

Ah, I see what you did there. Just don’t ask me what it is because I’m not completely sure.

Unlocking… unlocking would be a wonderful thing. Remember the skill books from GW? (Of course you do, sorry.) Mobs dropping trait or skill unlock books would be one thing that would go over well I suspect. You’d just need to keep balance between various play styles all having relatively equal accessibility to the books (WvW vs PvE vs sPvP vs Fractals for example). If someone spends 90% of their time in WvW, will they have equal (or at least reasonable) access when compared to someone who solely PvEs?

Another way would be through some form of “epic” delivery, for example the Vigil starting you off through a personal story style chain that may take a few players working together to overcome.

There are skill points in the world, there could also be skill/trait points, be they npcs, items, etc. that activate events that must be followed through to completion in order to unlock something (or give you a currency towards unlocking something from the vendor).

I think, personally, that no one thing should be settled on in this regards… having a myriad of ways to unlock them could open up many avenues, new content, etc. and allow options to see what proves the most enjoyable in practice as opposed to theory.

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Posted by: darkace.8925

darkace.8925

Reading through a lot of the comments on various class diversification (or just stronger trait/skill diversification) concepts, one of the things that seems to be missing is a discussion on how you’d actually earn/unlock these additional abilities to make it a progression system.

One of the goals of progression, in this case horizontal, is to create an extended sense of game play and thus = reward for playing it.

For example, we’ve added more skills to the game recently, but those simply unlock with skill points, which basically means -> play any part of the game that gives exp, or kill champs to get skill point books. That’s ok as systems of unlocking horizontal progression go for the extended class diversification, but game play wise it generally means find the easiest place to get XP/champ-loot and do it over and over again for a large % of players, since folks most often gravitate towards the path of least resistance.

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

Regarding your specific example of new skills, throwing skill points at the game is the least interesting route you guys could have given us. A system where we kill veterans to capture skills could have provided both more interesting game play and another form of a gold sink (assuming we purchase signets or consumables used in the capture process). In my opinion, there are always more interesting options than “sit in front of your keyboard pressing buttons until you’ve got enough skill points to unlock something”.

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

Reading through a lot of the comments on various class diversification (or just stronger trait/skill diversification) concepts, one of the things that seems to be missing is a discussion on how you’d actually earn/unlock these additional abilities to make it a progression system.

One of the goals of progression, in this case horizontal, is to create an extended sense of game play and thus = reward for playing it.

For example, we’ve added more skills to the game recently, but those simply unlock with skill points, which basically means -> play any part of the game that gives exp, or kill champs to get skill point books. That’s ok as systems of unlocking horizontal progression go for the extended class diversification, but game play wise it generally means find the easiest place to get XP/champ-loot and do it over and over again for a large % of players, since folks most often gravitate towards the path of least resistance.

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

the current system works great and allows for progression on the individual players terms. no need to make “special” content that forces players to jump through hoops or do things outside of their realm of interest when you have a user friendly system in place. the main concern should be to improve existing content and adding more permanent content along the way.

edit- the last thing this game needs is another system for a system on top of a system for the last system that is filled with new currency, bits and drip drops of rewards while forcing players to filling up a new xp bar for +1%- +5% increases or new skills.

the shroud of the dark side has fallen. begun the craft war has.

(edited by Swagger.1459)

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Posted by: Romo.3709

Romo.3709

Reading through a lot of the comments on various class diversification (or just stronger trait/skill diversification) concepts, one of the things that seems to be missing is a discussion on how you’d actually earn/unlock these additional abilities to make it a progression system.

One of the goals of progression, in this case horizontal, is to create an extended sense of game play and thus = reward for playing it.

For example, we’ve added more skills to the game recently, but those simply unlock with skill points, which basically means -> play any part of the game that gives exp, or kill champs to get skill point books. That’s ok as systems of unlocking horizontal progression go for the extended class diversification, but game play wise it generally means find the easiest place to get XP/champ-loot and do it over and over again for a large % of players, since folks most often gravitate towards the path of least resistance.

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

Colin, unlike the healing skill from Nightmare LS, spending either Skill points or gold, is out right boring to be honest. The skill acquirement in GW1 was a lot more diverse with different Bosses having different skills you could “capture” with signet or learning it from the master of certain class.
While signet capturing would now feel outdated and impractical in eyes of GW2, teaching the said skill via quest that requires that skill would be much more interesting.
Given the fact that the questing is a thing of the past, maybe instead of having “trainers” be merchants, we can create a small instance (no bigger than Ascension Arena in GW1) where you’re presented with a task having your regular weapon skill and only that one utility skill you’re trying to learn.
With a trainer (now in real meaning of the word) looking over you, giving you pointers as to what to do in situation he/she had presented you with.
It’s just a small concept, but this way you’d earn your skill rather than just outright buy it, while learning it at the same time. Maybe give it an attempt cost? Creating an ability to fail such quest?

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Posted by: Zone.1275

Zone.1275

Reading through a lot of the comments on various class diversification (or just stronger trait/skill diversification) concepts, one of the things that seems to be missing is a discussion on how you’d actually earn/unlock these additional abilities to make it a progression system.

One of the goals of progression, in this case horizontal, is to create an extended sense of game play and thus = reward for playing it.

For example, we’ve added more skills to the game recently, but those simply unlock with skill points, which basically means -> play any part of the game that gives exp, or kill champs to get skill point books. That’s ok as systems of unlocking horizontal progression go for the extended class diversification, but game play wise it generally means find the easiest place to get XP/champ-loot and do it over and over again for a large % of players, since folks most often gravitate towards the path of least resistance.

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

the current system works great and allows for progression on the individual players terms. no need to make “special” content that forces players to jump through hoops or do things outside of their realm of interest when you have a user friendly system in place. the main concern should be to improve existing content and adding more permanent content along the way.

Well just passing off more content variety seems kinda lame. I think if it was really desired to not have to work to get new skills, then there could be two options: a way to get new skills from doing objectives or just buying them from your skill sheet, but the latter would have to be much more expensive.

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Posted by: Conski Deshan.2057

Conski Deshan.2057

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

I hope this isn’t railroading over housing? But if we have to ,

I would like to see proper unlocking, not buying so no use of a currency to get the skill.
If it’s a general skill then say completion of a new dungeon path could unlock it, or a special fractal which revolves around the skill somehow. I don’t mind order instances to unlock skills either.
An alternative is a survival mission (would require some tweaking to ensure it was challenging, I.e perma revealed and some way around 5 guardians keeping a perma wall up). You have to survive to 30 minutes in a hostile environment against increasingly hard waves of monsters, make it past 30 you get the skill, additional rewards could be stuck in.

For class specific skills , mastery trials of some form, tailored to each class they would be a challenging series of tests that would result in the skill being unlocked. Or unlocked by showing use of your character in other ways, you made it to lvl30 fractals on this character have a skill, you’ve done all the dungeons on this character, skill for you.

I just want it to feel earned, Failure actually preventing access not making it slower to get. (not one try then you never get to go again I mean like Liandri you can bash your head against it as much as you like till you get good enough to win)

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Posted by: ColinJohanson

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What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

I think special dynamic events could be one way. Currently some dynamic events open up special vendors to buy little knick knacks. For example, if in Brisban Wildlands there was a special dynamic event chain where you help the Skritt King in some way and after the events are over you can buy a new skill from him with skill points.

So a question for this, how would we message well to newer players how a system like this would work? One of the challenges of events is simply: they may not be running when you’re in an area. Is it ok to make people stand around waiting for an event to happen so they can get a specific thing from that event? How would they know what to do if the event wasn’t currently active, what form of messaging could help them understand the state of the world – while still being immersive and not requiring them to use a 3rd party app to progress?

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Posted by: ColinJohanson

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ColinJohanson

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Reading through a lot of the comments on various class diversification (or just stronger trait/skill diversification) concepts, one of the things that seems to be missing is a discussion on how you’d actually earn/unlock these additional abilities to make it a progression system.

One of the goals of progression, in this case horizontal, is to create an extended sense of game play and thus = reward for playing it.

For example, we’ve added more skills to the game recently, but those simply unlock with skill points, which basically means -> play any part of the game that gives exp, or kill champs to get skill point books. That’s ok as systems of unlocking horizontal progression go for the extended class diversification, but game play wise it generally means find the easiest place to get XP/champ-loot and do it over and over again for a large % of players, since folks most often gravitate towards the path of least resistance.

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

Regarding your specific example of new skills, throwing skill points at the game is the least interesting route you guys could have given us. A system where we kill veterans to capture skills could have provided both more interesting game play and another form of a gold sink (assuming we purchase signets or consumables used in the capture process). In my opinion, there are always more interesting options than “sit in front of your keyboard pressing buttons until you’ve got enough skill points to unlock something”.

Yeah to be clear, my point was in saying the skill point version isn’t very interesting, it lends itself to degenerate game play (play the fastest way to earn skill points, not the most fun) which is generally true of most systems of progression in basically any MMO ever made.

The veteran hunt is very similar to the Gw1 style skill collection, and certainly one of the systems we’re well aware of and talk about regularly when we consider systems of horizontal progression acquisition for the future.

What other systems would excite you that don’t fall into the “sitting in front of your keyboard” pressing buttons options? Keep in mind they need to be easy to learn so we can teach them to new players, accessible, and not overly complex/tedious, and hopefully not something with a path of least resistance that leads to degenerate game play.

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Posted by: misterdevious.6482

misterdevious.6482

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

How about developing characters based on how they actually play?

Four progression paths relating to different playstyles.

  • The first path is progressed by doing damage or condition damage.
  • The second path is progressed by healing and granting boons.
  • The third path is progressed by damage taken, damage reduced, and damage prevented.
  • The fourth path is progressed by dazing, stunning, launching, crippling, chilling, and weakening.

A character would go to their profession trainer and select a path to follow, and they would earn points in that path using the means described above. As they progress, they unlock abilities of that path, some specific to their profession, and some generic in that path that any profession could get. They could only progress along one path at a time, and there would probably be a limit on the number of paths you could learn.

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Posted by: Zone.1275

Zone.1275

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

I think special dynamic events could be one way. Currently some dynamic events open up special vendors to buy little knick knacks. For example, if in Brisban Wildlands there was a special dynamic event chain where you help the Skritt King in some way and after the events are over you can buy a new skill from him with skill points.

So a question for this, how would we message well to newer players how a system like this would work? One of the challenges of events is simply: they may not be running when you’re in an area. Is it ok to make people stand around waiting for an event to happen so they can get a specific thing from that event? How would they know what to do if the event wasn’t currently active, what form of messaging could help them understand the state of the world – while still being immersive and not requiring them to use a 3rd party app to progress?

Maybe the event could be triggered by players, there’s already events like that. And to prevent players from having to wait maybe give the event activation a very short cooldown and let it be activated whenever the requirements for the event are up. As for allowing players to be able to know where to get the skill maybe NPCs could talk to each other or the player about helping someone and getting a skill in return, something that happens in RPGs a lot is getting information from characters.

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Posted by: Chrispy.5641

Chrispy.5641

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

I think special dynamic events could be one way. Currently some dynamic events open up special vendors to buy little knick knacks. For example, if in Brisban Wildlands there was a special dynamic event chain where you help the Skritt King in some way and after the events are over you can buy a new skill from him with skill points.

So a question for this, how would we message well to newer players how a system like this would work? One of the challenges of events is simply: they may not be running when you’re in an area. Is it ok to make people stand around waiting for an event to happen so they can get a specific thing from that event? How would they know what to do if the event wasn’t currently active, what form of messaging could help them understand the state of the world – while still being immersive and not requiring them to use a 3rd party app to progress?

Maybe Let Players speak to Profession Trainers, and have a Dialogue option where you can ask them if they have any leads on where to continue your “Training” in your profession. Any Profession Trainer for your profession should be able to tell you where to go, and they tell you where you can go based on your level (so a Trainer won’t send you to Orr if you just started out)

To solve the event problem, the events could be new events specifically made for this system, and they are like Skill challenges in that you can see where they are on the map, and there is always an NPC/Item/ something there you can interact with so the event can be started at any time, so it doesn’t just run on autopilot.

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Posted by: Chidori.9483

Chidori.9483

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

I think it would be neat if there were sub-story quests that resulted in skill/trait unlocks. It would be a good way to establish back stories. Perhaps one trait unlock could involve the back ground of the three Order leaders.

I believe some people have mentioned adding gambits or mistlocks to dungeons for added difficulty/better rewards, I would think a skill/trait would be a nice reward for completing a difficult dungeon or for even defeating revamped dragon champions like Teq. However, this solution has a problem, some people do not play PvE and wouldn’t like it if they had to venture into it to unlock skills/traits. I don’t WvW much so I don’t have examples of difficult/unique WvW feats.

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Posted by: Romo.3709

Romo.3709

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

I think special dynamic events could be one way. Currently some dynamic events open up special vendors to buy little knick knacks. For example, if in Brisban Wildlands there was a special dynamic event chain where you help the Skritt King in some way and after the events are over you can buy a new skill from him with skill points.

So a question for this, how would we message well to newer players how a system like this would work? One of the challenges of events is simply: they may not be running when you’re in an area. Is it ok to make people stand around waiting for an event to happen so they can get a specific thing from that event? How would they know what to do if the event wasn’t currently active, what form of messaging could help them understand the state of the world – while still being immersive and not requiring them to use a 3rd party app to progress?

That actually makes it feel like buying a skill anyways. I mean to be perfectly honest, it’s no different than having a trainer in LA sell the skill outright for money or skill points. Yeah you have to do a Dynamic Event in order to get said “trainer” to sell the skill after the event is over, but what’s preventing me from showing up after the event is over and just buying the skill? The work that was put into the chain was never there.

At the same time making the event harder than necessary, would completely prevent mass amount of people from getting said skill, once majority acquires it and the mentioned even chain is not being constantly done by group of people, and later on becoming abandoned until structured groups of people can take up on the task helping out their guildmates acquiring said skill.

I know I’m being overly critical, even though I think it’s an interesting way, but I am also trying to think far into the future when a new player is trying to get the skill long after everyone else had acquired it.

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Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

DiogoSilva.7089

Maybe special events could be started anytime by players who still haven’t completed them. And they could even be marked in the map, so we would get some sort of heart/ event hybrid out of this, where they’re marked in the map and initiated any time by players who still need to do them, like heart renown tasks, yet any player can join them and they can be triggered automatically when inactive for some time, like normal dynamic events.

If anything, I feel that the Heart Renown tasks should have been like this in the first place. Dynamic events with personal triggers and map marks. After all, their objectives are not mechanically that different from normal events, so it would make the world more alive while still keeping things personal. This sort of thing already happens with skill challenges, but while skill challenges follow a very simple structure, special events can be more complex, have event chains, start automatically as well (unlike skill challenges) have more flavor, and of course, add unique rewards instead of a generic “1 skill point” or “some gold and karma”.

Elementalist.

(edited by DiogoSilva.7089)

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Posted by: Conski Deshan.2057

Conski Deshan.2057

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

I think special dynamic events could be one way. Currently some dynamic events open up special vendors to buy little knick knacks. For example, if in Brisban Wildlands there was a special dynamic event chain where you help the Skritt King in some way and after the events are over you can buy a new skill from him with skill points.

So a question for this, how would we message well to newer players how a system like this would work? One of the challenges of events is simply: they may not be running when you’re in an area. Is it ok to make people stand around waiting for an event to happen so they can get a specific thing from that event? How would they know what to do if the event wasn’t currently active, what form of messaging could help them understand the state of the world – while still being immersive and not requiring them to use a 3rd party app to progress?

Depending how immerseive you’re aiming to be you could:
1. Have a message flash up you sense that there is new knowledge to be gained in this area

2. Retroactively add an npc in the starting area that explains the mechanic

3. Have a skill locator item that when activated acts like a scout, opens your map and sends it to the general area a skill is located in.

4. Have Npc’s in the area heavily hint at it (I know this hasn’t worked well previously as people still didn’t realize Jormag or Shatterer were there despite half the zone screaming about them).

5. Have the skill locked on their trait page and when hovered over indicates this skill can be found in x area

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Posted by: VOLKON.1290

VOLKON.1290

What other systems would excite you that don’t fall into the “sitting in front of your keyboard” pressing buttons options? Keep in mind they need to be easy to learn so we can teach them to new players, accessible, and not overly complex/tedious, and hopefully not something with a path of least resistance that leads to degenerate game play.

Well, new personal story arcs could send you off on paths that lead to unlocking something specific from the Order you chose at the beginning of the game (which would add more substance to the Order you choose mattering)… in WvW you could really shake things up by adding the hated “PvE in my WvW” by periodically having boss mobs appear that would drop an unlock to the server getting the killing blows in (but that could be tricky for smaller servers, so careful there… just an idea)… You could even throw out in the PvE world random Champions that enter the world from one side, simply walk across and out the other if they’re not defeated. It would be up to the players to recognize, band together and defeat this champion to get an unlock that way. Don’t announce it, just have it happen.

#TeamJadeQuarry

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Posted by: Romo.3709

Romo.3709

How would they know what to do if the event wasn’t currently active, what form of messaging could help them understand the state of the world – while still being immersive and not requiring them to use a 3rd party app to progress?

This is where I think “trainers” that we go to to acquire books of mastery can help a whole lot, especially if they all had a way to create challenges surrounding the skill we want to learn. new players wouldn’t have to look far, and at the same time they have to talk to them sooner or later.

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

Reading through a lot of the comments on various class diversification (or just stronger trait/skill diversification) concepts, one of the things that seems to be missing is a discussion on how you’d actually earn/unlock these additional abilities to make it a progression system.

One of the goals of progression, in this case horizontal, is to create an extended sense of game play and thus = reward for playing it.

For example, we’ve added more skills to the game recently, but those simply unlock with skill points, which basically means -> play any part of the game that gives exp, or kill champs to get skill point books. That’s ok as systems of unlocking horizontal progression go for the extended class diversification, but game play wise it generally means find the easiest place to get XP/champ-loot and do it over and over again for a large % of players, since folks most often gravitate towards the path of least resistance.

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

the current system works great and allows for progression on the individual players terms. no need to make “special” content that forces players to jump through hoops or do things outside of their realm of interest when you have a user friendly system in place. the main concern should be to improve existing content and adding more permanent content along the way.

Well just passing off more content variety seems kinda lame. I think if it was really desired to not have to work to get new skills, then there could be two options: a way to get new skills from doing objectives or just buying them from your skill sheet, but the latter would have to be much more expensive.

i’ll drop my edit from that post here…

“the last thing this game needs is another system for a system on top of a system for the last system that is filled with new currency, bits and drip drops of rewards while forcing players to filling up a new xp bar for +1%- +5% increases or new skills.”

this game has a streamlined and user friendly system to level up and gain skill points. there is absolutely no need to convolute the system or force players to do specific content in one area of the game to progress their character.

the shroud of the dark side has fallen. begun the craft war has.

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the current system works great and allows for progression on the individual players terms. no need to make “special” content that forces players to jump through hoops or do things outside of their realm of interest when you have a user friendly system in place. the main concern should be to improve existing content and adding more permanent content along the way.

Which current system do you think works great specifically? In theory, we have a lot of systems already

For me, I think some our current systems of horizontal progression and their earn systems are:

- Collect skins: Purchase them for currencies (which becomes play the fastest way to earn currency X), get them as rare drops (play fastest way to kill mob/content type X), or purchase them off the trading post. (Play the fastest way to earn gold)

- Skills: Collect skill points. (Which becomes play the fastest way to earn XP, or skill points.)

- Achievement Horizontal Rewards: These are things like achievement point skin unlocks, titles, etc. This is more just sort of play everything that gives achievement points, since very little of it is repeatable.

- Legendary: This one doesn’t really have a totally clear path to acquisition other than earn crazy amounts of gold, which goes back to play the fastest way to earn gold. (note legendary is only horizontal if you already have ascended)

- WxP Abilities: Complete objectives worth points in WvW. (Complete objectives as fast as possible, find a group to help you do this. Of all the above this is basically just telling you to play WvW, and though it is as some degenerate aspects is probably the least so)

- PvP Skin Locker & PvP Ranks: Play PvP. (This is basically just play PvP since the latest release.)

Not everyone plays the way I described above, but many of the systems above encourage you to want to play the fastest way possible to earn the rewards, sometimes at the cost of not playing the way you’d find the most fun. The upside of Gw2 is you can play the things you enjoy most and still be rewarded for them in most cases, even if it’s not at the fastest rate. The downside is because almost everything can earn you most of the same rewards, this becomes a matter of choosing to do the things you enjoy the most, but getting rewarded slower because of it.

Potential different systems would create more diverse game play, but the challenge is making it not overly complex, and running the risk of driving players to force one specific type of game play they may not enjoy since they can’t earn it other ways. These are some of the challenges we face we looking at any form of horizontal progression, and some of the discussions that come up when looking at new potential systems as well.

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Posted by: Chrispy.5641

Chrispy.5641

Reading through a lot of the comments on various class diversification (or just stronger trait/skill diversification) concepts, one of the things that seems to be missing is a discussion on how you’d actually earn/unlock these additional abilities to make it a progression system.

One of the goals of progression, in this case horizontal, is to create an extended sense of game play and thus = reward for playing it.

For example, we’ve added more skills to the game recently, but those simply unlock with skill points, which basically means -> play any part of the game that gives exp, or kill champs to get skill point books. That’s ok as systems of unlocking horizontal progression go for the extended class diversification, but game play wise it generally means find the easiest place to get XP/champ-loot and do it over and over again for a large % of players, since folks most often gravitate towards the path of least resistance.

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

the current system works great and allows for progression on the individual players terms. no need to make “special” content that forces players to jump through hoops or do things outside of their realm of interest when you have a user friendly system in place. the main concern should be to improve existing content and adding more permanent content along the way.

Well just passing off more content variety seems kinda lame. I think if it was really desired to not have to work to get new skills, then there could be two options: a way to get new skills from doing objectives or just buying them from your skill sheet, but the latter would have to be much more expensive.

i’ll drop my edit from that post here…

“the last thing this game needs is another system for a system on top of a system for the last system that is filled with new currency, bits and drip drops of rewards while forcing players to filling up a new xp bar for +1%- +5% increases or new skills.”

this game has a streamlined and user friendly system to level up and gain skill points. there is absolutely no need to convolute the system or force players to do specific content in one area of the game to progress their character.

Then let people go do event chains or something else that’s doing something to learn skills if they don’t have the proper number of skill points, and if you have the skill points, then you can just buy them. You are still unlocking the skill on your own terms this way.

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Posted by: VOLKON.1290

VOLKON.1290

this game has a streamlined and user friendly system to level up and gain skill points. there is absolutely no need to convolute the system or force players to do specific content in one area of the game to progress their character.

However if that specific content is less specific and available through various game play methods… WvW, PvE, etc. then the idea must become more palatable, especially if the sum of all unlocks is greater than the number of unlocks available such that you could eventually get them all in WvW, for example, without having to do other content you find less desirable to you as an individual.

#TeamJadeQuarry

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Posted by: Zone.1275

Zone.1275

What sort of systems of horizontal progression unlocking would you like to see that’d accompany a system like extended class progression?

I think special dynamic events could be one way. Currently some dynamic events open up special vendors to buy little knick knacks. For example, if in Brisban Wildlands there was a special dynamic event chain where you help the Skritt King in some way and after the events are over you can buy a new skill from him with skill points.

So a question for this, how would we message well to newer players how a system like this would work? One of the challenges of events is simply: they may not be running when you’re in an area. Is it ok to make people stand around waiting for an event to happen so they can get a specific thing from that event? How would they know what to do if the event wasn’t currently active, what form of messaging could help them understand the state of the world – while still being immersive and not requiring them to use a 3rd party app to progress?

That actually makes it feel like buying a skill anyways. I mean to be perfectly honest, it’s no different than having a trainer in LA sell the skill outright for money or skill points. Yeah you have to do a Dynamic Event in order to get said “trainer” to sell the skill after the event is over, but what’s preventing me from showing up after the event is over and just buying the skill? The work that was put into the chain was never there.

At the same time making the event harder than necessary, would completely prevent mass amount of people from getting said skill, once majority acquires it and the mentioned even chain is not being constantly done by group of people, and later on becoming abandoned until structured groups of people can take up on the task helping out their guildmates acquiring said skill.

I know I’m being overly critical, even though I think it’s an interesting way, but I am also trying to think far into the future when a new player is trying to get the skill long after everyone else had acquired it.

The trainer might be able to be client side for players that got credit for the event.

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Posted by: ColinJohanson

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You could even throw out in the PvE world random Champions that enter the world from one side, simply walk across and out the other if they’re not defeated. It would be up to the players to recognize, band together and defeat this champion to get an unlock that way. Don’t announce it, just have it happen.

So an open question: If you don’t announce it, how do players who want to progress their character down these new paths of exciting character progression know what to do it, or how to progress? We’ve seen if the path of progression isn’t relatively clear, most our every-day casual players won’t bother doing it, which isn’t a system that buys us much game play over-all.

And if the champion isn’t available, how do we message to players that the system of progression to advance their character isn’t available at this time? I think you can get away with no real messaging around something like a rare skin, but if it’s a system that expands your characters profession diversity it needs much clearer communication.

These are the kind of questions I ask the designers coming up with the systems we’ll use in the future, so it’s a fun opportunity for you guys as well

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Posted by: darkace.8925

darkace.8925

What other systems would excite you that don’t fall into the “sitting in front of your keyboard” pressing buttons options? Keep in mind they need to be easy to learn so we can teach them to new players, accessible, and not overly complex/tedious, and hopefully not something with a path of least resistance that leads to degenerate game play.

Again, and this brainstorming is specific to the case of new skills, you could have a reward schedule that pays new skills at the completion of certain stages of the Personal Story, make them purchasable with Karma (hopefully people would realize Karma comes freely enough just from doing the things we enjoy doing, though some would no doubt grind event chains to unlock them asap), or simply price them on par with the skill already in the game and let build diversification be its own reward and rely on other forms of Horizontal Progression to keep players engaged.

New skills is a tricky form of Horizontal Progression because?
A) if you price them too low with Skill Points, they’re barely going to amount to a speed bump for people who have been playing for any length of time
B) if you price them too high with Skill Points, players are going to grind the path of least resistance to get them
C) if you balance them with existing skills but price them too high, inexperienced players might associate Skill Point cost (or effort required to obtain) with power and be disappointed when they purchase what they thought was going to be a better skill than what they otherwise had available to them
D) if you tie them to one specific activity (Personal Story, dungeons, Veteran hunt, etc) then you’re forcing players who might not otherwise enjoy that activity to partake just to unlock skills they might want to use in their favored area of the game.