Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

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Posted by: kokiman.2364

kokiman.2364

Add to that question:

When will the GW:Proph+EotN map be “restored” in GW2?

sry for bed english)))))

50 – *2 = 100

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

THAT’S where all the bad blood surrounding that event comes from.
Simple greed.
And that’s the game’s fault. If it really were more about content than the reward, I’m sure feedback in general would be a lot more positive.

Ummm…no. That might be true for some people, maybe even a lot of people, but not for all people.

What upset me about the event is that I missed it, and couldn’t get a clear answer on just what the hell had happened during it. All I got (at the time, mind you) was a confused mess of answers that had me feeling very left out. Did I want the reward? Well, sure, but “missed reward” was hardly on my radar at the time. I wanted the story, I wanted to see what everyone else had seen. There’s always another chance at a reward from something else, but I was to NEVER get to be in that part of the story, and that sucked.

This is why we need a better mechanism to re-tell the story of missed LS events. I had suggested either in an in-game or out of game Lore Book that details not only the history of LS, but of Guild Wars as well. This will also help players who never played GW1 understand the original lore.

But this story telling can’t simply be one paragraph for each LS. I don’t want to see one paragraph introduce roxx during flame and frost and then explain what happened in a few short sentences within the paragraph. The explanation must be drawn out enough so that nothing is left to the imagination, other than trying to recreate the story in my mind from the words written by Arenanet.

Bobbystein, what do you think of this?

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

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Posted by: Septemptus.7164

Septemptus.7164

Chris,

What do you and the other Devs think about the idea of having a static server that people are transported to for their personal story? People could play on their main server with all of their friends and participate in the LS, while still being able to complete the personal story as intended. It would also give you guys the freedom to change the world as you see fit, without being anchored down by the Personal Story.

The switch could be something simple like the NPC is the Mad King’s Labyrinth, where talking to him transports you to the Inquisition or Clocktower.

I think this is an interesting idea. Let’s flesh it out some more. Can you give me some more details around your idea?

Chris

It could work as an auto guest system.
On Select world everyone would have 3rd server that they always guest on called Historical (always on 1st place). You could relog to it always.
(There should also be a little tweak to world selection to show only 3 servers once you used 2 guest tickets and PLEASE don’t force me to accept the 24h info every time I switch servers to play with friends…)

On your hero panel you go to “My history” tab and you should make 2 buttons: Historical server and Living server. When you click Historical you would be reloged to be on historical server. without showing charter select screen. After each of story instances you could be prompt (go live, stay in historical or I will manually switch).

Only in historical server you should have green stars and instance entries. You could also transform upper right area that informs you about personal story to have text like “lick to progress personal story” on click you would have the same prompt like after completing an instance.

Those are kinda basic ideas but you can add to that if you want to make them fancy.
I would at least do those basics then maybe add something more to it so you could as fast as possible be free from Personal story compatibility – like ORR problem.

I really would like to see it green in Orr and with Karkas roaming around since Consortium would finally pushed them from Southsun and they would find new home on half deserted island of Orr. We would go in there and see then battle rest of undeads that come from temples. Temples would stay in as they consumed so much power over years that you would need to cleanse them over and over until rests of Zaithan power vanishes (it could be slowly changed in LS to the point when you erase those temple events giving us something new in the future).

Hopefully we will see something like this.

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Posted by: Septemptus.7164

Septemptus.7164

I still not sure why every content has to be 2 weeks though. It should last as long as it needs to progress the story.

Said another way…

We LOVE that you ADD content every two weeks.

We HATE that you often REMOVE roughly the same amount of content every two weeks.

Hi Timmyf,

We are working on more persistent content and meta goals that bridge said content.

Of to a meeting.

Chris

It would be interesting seeing a plot like current WvW season for few month that you would add achievements in time and it would be in background. Some huge story like progressing through new areas to battle Dragon and on the other side there would be some smaller stories like current LS in main spotlight for us to enjoy. It would create nice perspective and it would stop the felling like something happened instantly.

I loved the intro to Flame and Frost although it was way too long but it build up some tension. When I saw Kessex before last patch I was also trilled. Cause some things were happening and it showed us that we are preparing for something more. We got curious. Nothing happened just like that out of nowhere. It was similar to Queens Speech.

You could do those teasers for a month revealing some slow changes by 2 updates (1 month) and it will be great. We will go analyze something changing (teaser 2nd phase) in here, when we break main release (final release), and something could start in 3rd place (teaser start) to make us wonder even more. It would work nicely and those I think aren’t things that cant be done and those hopefully can be done easily enough.
Anyway its definitely worth it since game becomes more alive when you speculate.

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Posted by: lordkrall.7241

lordkrall.7241

Add to that question:

When will the GW:Proph+EotN map be “restored” in GW2?

When we go after Jormag most likely, since J is currently “ruling” the north.

Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Aurora Glade

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Posted by: Septemptus.7164

Septemptus.7164

To me none of the LV felt like it truly impacted the WORLD. Sure zones got changed, but the world stayed the same. Just look at the current LV there is a huge tower in the middle of a lake, but the humans and centaurs still have their petty land disputes..

So how would you try and solve this? And a second question is how far would you like to see the impact of say a tower in Kessex be felt content wise? The balance here is of course total volume of work for those involved, to literally have the entire world react to what’s going on would take us 6+ months to build, which at that point isn’t actually meeting our goals of a regularly changing and evolving world.

That’s right.
Making new content takes a lot of time and I see many people in here don’t see that. I worked with programing and I know that first hand. You often see some little things kitten easy, but in the end those changes would really take chain of events often. So like Colin said think about it if for details you want to wait for 2m+ each release.

I know it’s doable, but there has to be a compromise and I don’t recall any problem with the state of Kessex as it is now. You could probably just turn off bridge event for now but that’s the most I would really do.

As said we aren’t hurt with the time of releases only the time to complete them.
Since I wrote about it in my previous post I won’t write it again.

*To sum it up. *
Kessex is awesome. Let there be remains of this in history as Karkas body is in Southsun!
You did a really great job with this update, I hope to see you getting better and better each update.

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Posted by: Septemptus.7164

Septemptus.7164

Add to that question:

When will the GW:Proph+EotN map be “restored” in GW2?

When we go after Jormag most likely, since J is currently “ruling” the north.

I would love to see that (as you can read ion my posts).
Yeah, lets go in there!

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Posted by: cobblestone.6015

cobblestone.6015

I don’t know if this has been discussed yet, but it seems to me like there needs to be pre-arc, arc, and post-arc states to the LW.

  • What you did with Tower of Nightmares, placing Marjory and Kasmeer in Kessex Hills is an excellent example of a pre-arc state. I think that a cut scene explaining how they found out about the tower and why they decided to go there would have made a much better story. Foreshadowing and character development all rolled up into one.
  • Then comes the reveal of the tower (and I assume the follow up of the interior of the tower).
  • Post-arc state would be, for example, the tower in ruins, people(NPCs) that survived relocated to nearby towns, or rebuilding what was lost. Possibly add a garrison nearby that Queen Jennah ordered built to safeguard her people.

Adding something as a tip-of-the-hat to what happened in the LW arc to the world will help give a sense of the change that happened. It can be anything, ruins, new NPC chatter, a new zone, different enemies added to maps, changed events in a map, different friendly NPCs etc. The key being giving players a sense of agency or accomplishment every time they see the result of their (and others) actions.

Oh Bleep its Them [Run] – Stormbluff Isle

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Posted by: Conner.4702

Conner.4702

To me none of the LV felt like it truly impacted the WORLD. Sure zones got changed, but the world stayed the same. Just look at the current LV there is a huge tower in the middle of a lake, but the humans and centaurs still have their petty land disputes..

So how would you try and solve this? And a second question is how far would you like to see the impact of say a tower in Kessex be felt content wise? The balance here is of course total volume of work for those involved, to literally have the entire world react to what’s going on would take us 6+ months to build, which at that point isn’t actually meeting our goals of a regularly changing and evolving world.

A lot of people already pointed out things that could be different. Also please don’t take things to far by saying the entire world needs to react, but surely some areas DO need to reflect what is going and went on.

Flame and Frost: it came it went, it left nothing behind to show it was there really.
During the F&F it wasn’t all that bad to be honest. The zone had multiple things going on, but without a permanent threat it didn’t need any additional changes. The problem started after it ended and seemingly everyone has forgotten about a huge new threat.
Solution: some events by dredge and flame legion should have been replaced by new events by molten alliance.

Southsun: No comments on this one really. The zone needed to have life brought back to it and it failed. Southsun is simply unfinished. Go back and finish it.

Skypirates: Achieved some of it by the addition of the new JP

Clockwork: this is one of the worst due to how the invasions work. They aren’t truly invasions. but incursions. To top it off no one cared that their areas got invaded and there were no consequences for losing.
Thinking about it, key locations should have been invaded on a map and the enemy should have fortified them through various means, which then needed to be retaken by the players. Add some random patrol events and minor objectives and you have something you can actually call an invasion. Failing an invasion would mean the enemy can dig in. This is just a quick right of the top of my head idea.

Tower of nightmares: most people already pointed things out. like having the centaurs and humans at least have a cease fire, because the tower is a threat to everyone in the area. So stall any events between the 2 until a later point. You can add new events like the Centaur Overlord has gone crazy and is killing his own; slay him to stop the madness. Send out Centaur patrols towards the tower to investigate.

As it is the LS is inconsistent with the actual world. So when you have zones affected by something the direct area around it should at least acknowledge that it is there. This to me is Quality.

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Posted by: Seras.5702

Seras.5702

I think this raises an interesting question, what do you consider to be “temporary” content, and what qualifies (in your mind) as content that occurs and drives the living story forward it makes sense to have go away, vs. that which remains?

There is a thin-line between content that drives the story forward, which if it lasts forever feels like the story never really progresses, vs. content that all goes away and ends up feeling like the world never actually progresses. Which releases, and more specifically what aspects of specific releases do you feel were successful balancing content that didn’t remain forever that progressed the story, while simultaneously leaving enough of a mark on the world to feel like the world is changing an evolving?

For me the original invasion of Southsun Cove was the best example of this, it had a lot of “story” style content that made sense to happen and then go away, and also left a lot of permanent experiences as a result of that storyline.

I also felt like the story content that came along with the Queens Jubilee and Clockwork Chaos did a good job of accomplishing this as well, though the outcome of the invasions don’t have enough impact on the world.

Another food for thought: Back when we invaded Southsun, we did a lot of “one time” events with the story content. Folks complained that one time wasn’t fair because they would miss it, so we extended the “story” style content so you now have 2-4 weeks to experience it. Does having it around this long take away from the sense of story progression, and make it feel like it should be permanent when it’s taken away? Or would simply having (using the TV analogy) something like TiVo that allows you to see the story you missed balance out this issue?

Southsun Cove is unique in that it introduced a completely new zone, something no other LS release has done. So while the story content disappeared after its run, the zone remained, allowing for further exploration and killing, but also as a platform for more content. And while there was a later LS release in Southsun, the area itself has never been filled in with DEs or hearts or anything other than gathering nodes to entice players back.

In contrast, releases like Jubilee, Bazaar, Gauntlet, Halloween, Christmas, F&F, and others came & went without leaving a trace of itself behind, save a continuation of the story with the next release. I can go back to Southsun and reminisce about defeating the karka invasion. But I can’t get back to the Molten Facility, Labrynthine Cliffs, Pavilion, or even Canach’s Lair.

My hope with the Tower is that its presence or at least affects on Kessex will remain for a while. Even if we have a LS dungeon in the tower and defeat Scarlet and the alliance and everything dies….that tower is still there. And the spores have done damage. I would expect to see those effects on the surrounding areas for a while, new DEs allowing players to clean up the area or help the Quaggan rebuild after the krait are driven off or something. And just because the dungeon story is complete, doesn’t mean it can’t be refilled with new monsters and a new explorable mode: (p1) ensure the tower is secure, discover some krait in hiding, kill ’em; (p2) escort Priory scholars deep into the tower for study, zaniness ensues; (p3) answer a distress call from a group of Scholars that have come in contact with an experimental strain of the toxin, forcing you and Marjory to rush to their aid, gather materials for an anti-toxin, and save them.

Things like this allow us to enjoy new permanent content where the temporary story-driven stuff was. I’d love to go back to the Labrynthine Cliffs. That place was awesome. And though the Zephyrs are gone, I’m sure those huts & some scaffolding remain. Expand the zone, give it new purpose, let us keep it clear of evil in hopes of the Zephyrs return.

Flixx Gatebuster (Engineer)
[HATE], Yak’s Bend(NA)

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Posted by: Galen Grey.4709

Galen Grey.4709

I am currious as to why so many people feel say F&F didnt leave any impact behind it after it finished.

F&F created the refuges. Those refuges built quite a few structures in Southsun and were the reason for canachs actions that in turn generated new events that are there till this day. The refugees subsequently moved to cragstead which up until end of secrets of southsun was a burned down rubble. They have since then rebuild it and are now living there.

F&F not only changed the world directly while it was going on but also did so indirectly for 2 subsequent LW releases. Are people who say F&F didnt leave anything behind unaware of these changes or simply dont consider them changes for some reason. If so I would be curious to know those reasons.

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Posted by: mercury ranique.2170

mercury ranique.2170

Didn’t react here for a while, but wanted to comment on a few things.

If gw2 isn’t going to get any expansions, can we get guild wars 1 utopia?

I understand your desire a bit, there are several things wrong with your statement. First off all, GW2 will have ‘expansions’ Collin’s 1 year interview a few months ago specifically said that. Second off all. GW1 is an abanded project. I loved the game myself, and its great to see that some people who dislike gw2 (wich is a totally different game) are still enjoying it greatly, but there is no way back for the course that has been taken.

Last off all, look at Utopia. Utopia is a cancelled plan for an expansion. The reason they cancelled is that they had ideas they where really enthousiastic bout but couldnt incorperate into the GW1 infrastructure. So instead of that campaign they made Eye of the North and GW2 instead. Many good elements that where in development for Utopia have been adopted into Eye of the North and GW2. So from that project all the good ideas are being re-used in other allready released content and that means that what is left off Utopia are the bad elements. So finishing that project based on what is not used untill now would mean an campaign made off bad leftovers.

Hi Jaken,

Good points. To answer some of your questions i would like us to continue the CD initiative indefinitely assuming we are ALL finding it to be a valuable exercise. In regard to this particular thread there is no close date yet due mainly to lack of time on our side. This allows us to give the thread the respect it is due. I am therefore unsure about when we will sticky the thread. I will know more when i have caught up a little bit, for sure though there has been a huge amount of value so far but i do want to continue discussing DEs pertaining to LW and peoples favorite and least favorite events and why.

Finally once these threads close we will have an open thread on the process of CD and what we can do better as a group and discussion around best working practices moving forward.

Chris

I’ll answer bout DE’s and LW after another quote. As for this thread and the CD. I would strongly suggest that when discussion is done a good summery is given and the thread is to be locked for 6 months. The reason is that we already see that some subjects that has been discussed to the bottom off the discussion still pops up (e.g. the views on scarlet and the views on the release pace), this shows off course how important it is to people, but currently those subjects don’t contribute anymore to the CD project. You heard all arguments you reflected, we reflected and you re-reflected. I hope and think this will be the case for all elements of this CD.

Why lock it for 6 months? First off all cause as you stated, it takes 4 months to develoop an new living story release. So to fully see the results we need to wait 4 months

But to have a good solid opinion like we have now bout the current we need to see at least 4 releases. So thats why 6 months would be appropriate.

After that the thread is re-opened for evaluation and possible repeating the whole process of sharing thoughts and idea’s

to be continued….

Arise, ye farmers of all nations
Arise, opressed of Tyria!

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

I am currious as to why so many people feel say F&F didnt leave any impact behind it after it finished.

F&F created the refuges. Those refuges built quite a few structures in Southsun and were the reason for canachs actions that in turn generated new events that are there till this day. The refugees subsequently moved to cragstead which up until end of secrets of southsun was a burned down rubble. They have since then rebuild it and are now living there.

F&F not only changed the world directly while it was going on but also did so indirectly for 2 subsequent LW releases. Are people who say F&F didnt leave anything behind unaware of these changes or simply dont consider them changes for some reason. If so I would be curious to know those reasons.

While you may be right, all of that happened so long ago..everyone has forgotten about the refugees and southsun. I mean, when we are fighting off clockwork invasions or toxic krait, do we care what happened in wayferer hills so long ago? It hasn’t impacted my gameplay one bit really. I can’t see clearly how scarlet and her minions relate to F&F..i mean sure shes probably tied to it, but none of this is truly explained.

Which is one of my biggest problems with the LS. The story is so horribly told and disconnected.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

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Posted by: Seras.5702

Seras.5702

I mentioned that many LS leave only remnants that are used in future LS releases but don’t remain in the world at large. The refugees being a part of Canach’s actions in Southsun I’m aware of, however, I personally was not aware of their existence in Cragstead. That’s good to know. We need more of that.

Flixx Gatebuster (Engineer)
[HATE], Yak’s Bend(NA)

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Posted by: mercury ranique.2170

mercury ranique.2170

the second part off my post…

So how would you try and solve this? And a second question is how far would you like to see the impact of say a tower in Kessex be felt content wise? The balance here is of course total volume of work for those involved, to literally have the entire world react to what’s going on would take us 6+ months to build, which at that point isn’t actually meeting our goals of a regularly changing and evolving world.

As for DE’s and their impact on the world. And also how you can let the entire world react to the impact. I think it is possible.

There has been talks bout making it so that a fail off a succes has an impact. I think it should, and that every living story chapter should have a 6 month impact. And I think it is possible without having to redesign all maps.

Lets take the nightmare tower in consideration. Off course this won’t be incorperated there cause its too late, so its a bit of fanfiction how it could be if this living story was playing 4 months from now.

Soon the story arc concludes, servers are tasked to do big scale dynamic events in Kessex hills and try to take the tower down. These tasks are tracked by a world monitor and failure or success will be a tip off the balance. Actually 50% off the worlds will fail and 50% will succeed. The amount off effort needed is measured by relative quantity off success in the individual DE’s. With that I mean the DE’s have to scale well for the amount of people doing them. This scaling system has to be optimised to make it fair!. At the end the worlds with the most succesfull finished DE’s will have be successfull in fighting the tower and those who don’t qualify will fail.

So the first difference between succesfull worlds would be a different story conclusion instance being presented to players. For players on a successfull world it will be an instance and a video showing the collapes off the tower and the big plant inside. After that the NPC’s involved cheer and be happy and celebrate your victory and heroism. They join in a difficult incantation granting you 12% magic find. This permanent boost will decrease every two weeks with one procent (so after roughly 6 months the effect will be totally gone). This boost is the second difference.

…to be more continued

Arise, ye farmers of all nations
Arise, opressed of Tyria!

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Posted by: mercury ranique.2170

mercury ranique.2170

…and the final bit

What about the poor souls on the worlds that fail?? Don’t worry. I think it will be equally rewarding.

The final story instance will be different from them. Even though a heroic last push off the player, they come too late and in a video we see how the big tree/flower in the tower comes to full bloom. In the process the flower itself is destroyed as well as the tower round it, but pollens will spread all over Tyria. In the dialogue with the npc’S afterwards they explain they where afraid that this might happen. Soon all off the world will be covered with these giant tree/flowers. The other NPC sees however a change. Luckely these seeds can only grow into a tree after 6 months have passed. So there is a change. So the NPC’s are going through the world removing all the seeds (static objects like the current pollens around the world, but you cant harvest them as a player and you can’t interact). The process off removing them is a slow one. Inthe mean time the coruption caused by the seeds will inflict the champions and veterans. At start it will be all off them (except in dungeons and very tricky events like Tequatl). But the NPC’s will go around the world removing the pollens and the polution they are causing. So each 2 weeks 8% off them will loose the coruption boon and after 6 months it will be all gone. This means fighting on these worlds will be significantly more difficult. It means it will be a more hardcore server. That is the first reward. The second is the collectible spores. Only on the world that failed, the champs and vets will drop them. They are still usuable to buy the recipes and are even used in more crafting recipes. Cause the worlds that where succesfull can’t farm them for themselfes, they need to buy them on the tradepost (but have more money to do so cause off the increased magic find).

This can be repeated by every living story arc (4 weeks) in simular ways. This means there can be worlds where fight difficulty is really enhanced to a high level with unique and better drops and worlds that have high magic find but easier fights and not the unique and better drops. On the world selection screen you can see an indicator of the current world difficulty (each failed story gives on point).

When guesting from a fail world to a success world you will have the same easier fights, but not the magic find boost. When guesting from a success world to a fail world you will retain your magic find boost and will fase the harder fights. But the foes wont drop the uninque items (the toxic pollens).

When changing world (paid world transfer) from a fail world to a success world you will receive the boost for that world. When changing world from a fail world to a success world you will loose your boost (and the foes will drop the unique item like the toxic pollen).

So to summarize. My proposal is not to make the worlds look significantly different. But it is to make a difference between the fights difficulty and rewards on the worlds.

Arise, ye farmers of all nations
Arise, opressed of Tyria!

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

Add to that question:

When will the GW:Proph+EotN map be “restored” in GW2?

Mind putting that in English ?

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Posted by: callidus.7085

callidus.7085

Another food for thought: Back when we invaded Southsun, we did a lot of “one time” events with the story content. Folks complained that one time wasn’t fair because they would miss it, so we extended the “story” style content so you now have 2-4 weeks to experience it. Does having it around this long take away from the sense of story progression, and make it feel like it should be permanent when it’s taken away? Or would simply having (using the TV analogy) something like TiVo that allows you to see the story you missed balance out this issue?

I like the idea of ways to replay the LS (story instances) as well as a way to summarize your involvement in it (like the Personal Story tracking in the hero panel).

Would really like to see that story tracking bit in there.. it would also allow for a medium to store lore you read from books and such that pertain to the LS (books in game that reflect the short stories you have on the gw2 site or something like that).

Slow down and smell the pixels.

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Posted by: Jaken.6801

Jaken.6801

I am currious as to why so many people feel say F&F didnt leave any impact behind it after it finished.

F&F created the refuges. Those refuges built quite a few structures in Southsun and were the reason for canachs actions that in turn generated new events that are there till this day. The refugees subsequently moved to cragstead which up until end of secrets of southsun was a burned down rubble. They have since then rebuild it and are now living there.

F&F not only changed the world directly while it was going on but also did so indirectly for 2 subsequent LW releases. Are people who say F&F didnt leave anything behind unaware of these changes or simply dont consider them changes for some reason. If so I would be curious to know those reasons.

The thing is, the chnages were smaller presented then the actual problem. That is why people don`r really recognize it as changes:

- As F&F was going on the story was about a lot of refuges coming from the north. However we never saw these places. Even if there was a zone in the north, we didn`t know where they come from. This didn`t help us get a conenction.
- Adding to it, the two new zones that were introduced (great zones, btw.), just appeared.
- The supposed flow of refuges ended up beeing three little camps in Hoelbrak, Black Citadel and Lions Arch. All of them not growing over four months, or changing to acomidate for the amount of supposed refuges (this had rescource problems as they said)

Nevertheless, the overall impact between what we see and what was told was big enough to create this rift in perception.

After F&F Southsun was revealed and we know about some refuges going over there.
- This has nothing to do with the refuges. The Karkas would have come with or without them, because the Consortium was meddling there either way. At this point however it was nice to know that some went there.

- The refuges only came back into play, as southsun had to be revived and here they were mostly a plot element. Aside from some diary entries and “fighting for them” you did no interact, so they ended up rather shallow.

What i want to say is, that while the refuges are the conenction between the three LS, Southsun could have worked without them, as their influence for the player is small.

While the moral behind it is dark and grim. Slavery isn`t a nice topic and using the downfall of others to your advantage isn`t great either. The problem here lies with the fact, that we don`t have any connection to these refugees. They have no spokesmen we connect to, they are just a group with no real face. Even Canach who “fought” for them, doesn`t really count, since he was a third faction in that dilemma.

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Posted by: Grimthagen.6019

Grimthagen.6019

You’re correct, most games don’t do content releases every two weeks. Most games release new content usually about 12 months apart, which is why I stop playing them because the current content alone is not enough. I usually don’t come back when the new content finally drops, or I come back and don’t play 80% of the new content.

ArenaNet is treading new ground here, and it’s obviously going to be a bit bumpy. New things always are. I am trying way more new content than every other game with the two week release schedule. I think in time we will see that this is the best method.

With two new MMOs and two new consoles coming out ArenaNet can’t let up on the gas now. This method has the possibility of giving them an edge over the competition (besides that no monthly sub thing).

I’m going to quickly counter-point you here as I think it’s still kind of related to the topic.

I have stopped playing GW2 actively because of the constant two-week release cycle. The type of content released and the pace burnt me right out.

So where you are representative of the player that needs constant content infusions to keep you in the game, I am representative of the type of player that can’t or won’t keep up with constant content and leaves in frustration.

Different strokes for different folks, the question is which type of player is more common / more lucrative for ArenaNet.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

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Posted by: Conner.4702

Conner.4702

I am currious as to why so many people feel say F&F didnt leave any impact behind it after it finished.

F&F created the refuges. Those refuges built quite a few structures in Southsun and were the reason for canachs actions that in turn generated new events that are there till this day. The refugees subsequently moved to cragstead which up until end of secrets of southsun was a burned down rubble. They have since then rebuild it and are now living there.

F&F not only changed the world directly while it was going on but also did so indirectly for 2 subsequent LW releases. Are people who say F&F didnt leave anything behind unaware of these changes or simply dont consider them changes for some reason. If so I would be curious to know those reasons.

The refugees where a plotdevice nothing more. Anet could have used baby orphan quaggans and made almost the same story. That is not having an impact or a lasting effect to me. Nothing in diessa and wayfarer tells you F&F was there. So no F&F did not leave a lasting effect on the world.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

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Posted by: Jaken.6801

Jaken.6801

Now, i put some thoughts together. All of them were allready mentioned somwhere, but i think a bit summerizing won`t be bad, right?

For the living story:

1. Characters have to be persitence:
Right now we have a lot of characters. Some from the world itself. Some from the PS and some from the LS. However, they only appear if they are needed. Only in rare occasions are we able to find them in other locations or between events.
Characters like Destiny`s Edge vanish from the world almost completly. The only ones making a comeback so far were Logan and Rythlok (as well as a bit of Eir and recently Caithe).
LS Characters feel really episodic. They appear mostly in their events (with our two “favourites” Rox and Braham making some questionable cameos in the last few patches.).
What i mean is: if you introduce a character, give him a place in the world.
If Majory says she wants to investigate a certain hunch, have her study in her home back in DR, or follow up her lead with Kasmeer somwhere as an special event in the world.
Same goes for Rox and Braham, or others.

This would create a nice hunt for them around the world with each patch and gives you the chance to flesh them out a bit more, aside from silly banter in LS releases.

2. The world has to recognise the events.
Right now, even big events like the Kraith-Tower is not recognised by the world. Centaurs still do their fight against Fort Salma as well as fighting mostly humans, even though it is their land that is beeing pestered.
The world needs events, where other factions try to get something out of the misery of others. Kraith attack and polute the world. Have the centaure attack the Kraith, or even better, have them attack the humans even more strongly. The pollen go to Queensdale. They could use it to their advantage.
Scarlet is not the only one wrecking havock in the world. If something goes down, it is everyone`s mess.
Have people talk, close of events and heartquests, or adjust them to fit the new theme.
Change the aligning zones, so we see rescources beeing transported to the danger zone.
There are a lot of little and subtle things you can do to archieve the feeling that the world is actually reacting to what is happening.

3. Persitency:
Things have to stay behind. Things have to change. I am not talking about new gameplay mechanics like Tequatle. That doesn`t count.
The events left by F&F are cute, but a bit small, don`t you think? By far the most persistent today is actually Southsun, even though it feels like they just wanted to fix it.
However the other LS storylines are not so keen on leaving a mark. Queens Jubilee comes to mind, but now it is only a neat statue without any value for the players. In my opinion it devalues the area, since it took away a nice mystery.
Anyway, things have to stay. Everytime you bring something to the table and then take it away it just feels wastefull.
If it is good, leave it in. If it doesn`t fit because it blocks something else, shift it.

I already see the “Nightmare Tower” crumble after these events, however we can still use the assets. Follow up with an event which uses the players to rebuild the settlement in the north, creating a nice stronghold with the rests of the tower against the centaure.
Don`t just let things vanish, but try to let it happen naturally…

Btw. what happened to the Aetherblade Dungeon? Is it vacant? Can it be reopened as a nightclub?

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

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Posted by: trapline.8541

trapline.8541

I think it’s great that you are looking for player feedback in the living story, and here is mine.

I think one of the things missing for me at least is a sense of narritive to the events taking place. One of the topics borught up a lot in the thread is how it doesn’t really change the world…and it’s hard to develop around that, but it’s not hard to change the people in the world.

I’ll use the queen’s jubilee as an example.
This event did a good job of establishing a narrative without having to leave the game and go to a fansite and learn the story. It had a few scripted NPC conversations, and when scarlet appeared gave us a well illustrated cutscene with good voice acting and a slice of humor.
This was a great way to tell the story, and I think the cutscene is critical, as it gives us a solid story break to absorb the narrative, make a connection to it’s principal participants, and give us a desire to see a further outcome. It’s a solid hook.

Where it kind of came apart for me was the events after. I defeated the clock works, and watched the second NPC dialogue. After I left the instance, the city was pretty much business as usual, despite the fact that an enemy just crashed the party and introduced a threat.
If the threat has no teeth it becomes just another checkbox.

I think in the city there should have been some npc soldiers running around, higher levels of security, npc’s talking in nervous tones about clockwork creatures, bringing a more urgent mood.

Scarlet as a villain didn’t really make sense, I don’t know what she is or why she is doing this, who decides to dress up like a clown and summon mechanical creatures? Is she a skeleton of the queen’s past maybe? A noble of the aristocracy driven insane by the continued festivals and parties that put undue financial strain on the nobility?

I guess my expectaions of a villan and plot would involve something more grounded, and I think the “it doesn’t change the world” argument would go away if maybe these events drove a compelling narrative.

Why not put some teeth in this story, make players anticipate and desire to see what comes next, Imagine if Logan Thackery’s obsession with the queen slowly becomes more and more unhealthy, and he begins to violently eliminate her closest advisers and friends whom he can only perceive as traitors and threats to her safety. The nightmare court is exposed when it’s discovered all the flowers in the throne room cause violent paranoia, Logan loses control and at the conclusion of the story thread Thackarey is found in the throne room, cradling the body of the queen slain by his hand.

Imagine If Rylock, tired of the constant war with ghosts and the threat to his people starts holding their living human ancestors in prison camps to force the spirits to give up their endless struggle, forcing the charr and humans to once again plunge towards war.

Plots of that type with existing characters not only give us debates of morality, but also impact the world in that it changes the narrative of the world, because it’s main inhabitants are changed by the events.

I know people hate to reference other games, especially WOW, but please hear me out. During the entire cycle of wrath of the lich king, no giant new landmass popped into existence, there wasn’t a change physically..but there was a narrative, the horde got a new leader (who later went insane) the forsaken were betrayed and a battle was fought to reclaim the city, mistrust and anger boiled over..

I think this is an example of how you can change the world with the story, but not have to rebuild land masses and create new ones, just tell a good story, that isn’t afraid to kill off main characters, or have them do evil things, go to the moral gray area and build around choices and consequence, and then make the players live in those choices and see the impact.

(edited by trapline.8541)

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

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Posted by: nethykins.7986

nethykins.7986

I’m curious and would like to pose a question to whichever dev’s can answer this:

Which type of shows are you referencing when you talk about wanting the LW/LS to be delivered and experienced in that style?

I ask this because, while you say you want it to be like a show, there’s a huge difference between wanting it to be like a Saturday morning cartoon, or Seinfeld, or The Walking Dead.

Be specific.

You want the long unfolding drama that seems to apparently be connected (hitting that “Walking Dead” progression) but at the pace of 2-4 weeks resolution (which, if we equate each patch day to an “episode airing” then you’re closer to a sitcom/saturday morning cartoon scenario)

I’d like to see the references you guys use when you thought out and implemented the LW.

Note: Forgive me if this is already stated previously in the thread. I’m trying to keep up, but I cant read everything. Cheers

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Posted by: Chidori.9483

Chidori.9483

This is why we need a better mechanism to re-tell the story of missed LS events. I had suggested either in an in-game or out of game Lore Book that details not only the history of LS, but of Guild Wars as well. This will also help players who never played GW1 understand the original lore.

I’m not sure players would read a story book. I love to read and wouldn’t be opposed to it however, I’ve noticed a lot of people … just don’t like to read.

I’d love to find out more about Guild Wars, I downloaded the free trial over the summer but was overwhelmed with how different it was.

Do any of you remember that personal story instance where the Pale Tree shows you the future? Why not do something like that to recap the living story?

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Posted by: Galen Grey.4709

Galen Grey.4709

I am currious as to why so many people feel say F&F didnt leave any impact behind it after it finished.

F&F created the refuges. Those refuges built quite a few structures in Southsun and were the reason for canachs actions that in turn generated new events that are there till this day. The refugees subsequently moved to cragstead which up until end of secrets of southsun was a burned down rubble. They have since then rebuild it and are now living there.

F&F not only changed the world directly while it was going on but also did so indirectly for 2 subsequent LW releases. Are people who say F&F didnt leave anything behind unaware of these changes or simply dont consider them changes for some reason. If so I would be curious to know those reasons.

While you may be right, all of that happened so long ago..everyone has forgotten about the refugees and southsun. I mean, when we are fighting off clockwork invasions or toxic krait, do we care what happened in wayferer hills so long ago? It hasn’t impacted my gameplay one bit really. I can’t see clearly how scarlet and her minions relate to F&F..i mean sure shes probably tied to it, but none of this is truly explained.

Which is one of my biggest problems with the LS. The story is so horribly told and disconnected.

If this issue here is recollection then we’re in trouble because no matter what changes do occur, these will be forgotten in the span of a year and thats nothing anyone can do about it.

If the problem is the story is badly told there at least its something that Arenanet can address. Though in a way addressing this might be counter productive. For example no one in game tells you to go visit Cragstead after F&F and no one tells you to go visit it after Secrets of Southsun ends. You only do it if you connect the dots in your head so to speak. Cragstead was in ruins after F&F, refugees are looking for a place to stay so bad that they were willing to build southsun up for a roof over there heads so why not Cragstead… ohh look indeed they moved over to Cragstead now. No NPC in the game explained that to you, it was something that you had to figure out for yourself which is great cause it means the world evolves based on logic not just to service the story. Arenanet could just have removed the refugees from southsun and no one would have thought any less of the game. But instead they followed a logical path and moved to an area where they could get what they want and the same area needed their help. IT would have been cheeses if the game sent you over to Cragstead just so you’d be aware.

As for knowing the refugees that built up Southsun were the same ones from F&F all you needed to do is talk to them.

I am not saying story telling is perfect, the interface to the living story they’ve been working on for sometime now is definitely something thats very needed but I personally like the fact there are multiple layers to the story. You got the main storyline that the update is pushing (wild life attacking refugees, cannach trying to disrupt the consortium and consortium tricking the refugees). You got the story you get through investigation (refugees are those displaced by F&F and have no homes to go back to, Consortium is desperate as plans to develop southsun are badly behind schedule) and you have the story you get through observation and deduction (Refugees need place to go but southsun is hostile, logical choice would be cragstead)

I like the fact not all the story is spoon fed to you and there are good reasons to sorta do some investigating of your own to get the full picture.

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Posted by: Jaken.6801

Jaken.6801

Brainsorm round two delivered this:

Introduceing: “DEFENDERS OF TYRIA”

Every event counts. Spread out in the world and fight back the evil that is trying to destroy the little peace Tyria has left. Complete events to keep the malign forces of Tyria at bay, so they won`t spread and take over the lands.

New mechanics:

Event Counter:
Every event in a zone that involves one of the enemy factions is beeing counted. If players win these events the counter is set back, however the more events fail over time, the more each force grows and starts to take over the zone, till it spills over into the ones around, heading towards their personal destination.

Cross Zone Events:
As events fail, aligning zones become affected. The presence of a faction rises and new events appear, showing how they push into the land. Can you fight them back before they reach your city?

Faction conflicts:
If you fail to repell several factions and their armys meet in the same zone, they will beginn fighting for dominance. As a player you decide which army wins and which you have to fight for a greater lenght, as the events you take part in decide in which army gets pushed back first.

Factions
(examples to shorten things)

Jormags army: As you fail holding Frostgorge, The Claw of Jormag gets stronger. Each failed event in this region strenghten his army, till he takes it over with the help of the Sons of Svanir. As you keep failing to repell them, their forces will spread out till they reach Hoelbrak.
If you manage to push them all the way back you are allowed to fight their leader, the Claw of Jormag. Finishing him grants you the chance to aquire ascended frozen weapons, as well the chance to aquire a mini CoJ.

others:
- The Risen —> Lions Arch
- The Dredge --> Hoelbark
- Flame Legion —> Black Citadel
- Shatterer --> Black Citadel and Ebon…
- Inquest —> Random Locations, but event with a special Portal for Rata Sum
- Centaur --> Divinity`s Reach

The events spread out from a “Start Zone”, basicly their “mainbase” (for example Frostgorge for Jormags forces, Harathi Hinterlands for the centaur)
If their forces have taken over these lands, they spread out, taking over the others.

To regain zones, you have to take the land back by completing events. After you put the counter into your favour you initiate a “push out” event. This is the time where the faction builds up a big force to secure their power.
It is also the time which will be the most profitable, as there will be multiple champs in their ranks to fight.
Before that they will be only at strategic points. As the players don`t see the counter, they don`t know which how far the counter is, so it reduces the possibility to farm.
If they complete the “push out” event, the zone will be reverting back slowly and players can clean the next zone, till the factions are beeing pushed back to their origin.
Here you get the chance to fight their mainforce and leader (CoJ, Earth Elemental, etc..) and gain faction specific rewards.

Most of the events used here are allready in game. they have just to be extended with a follow up after failing and winning, so it feels dynamic.

If a zone is lost, there is a higher amount of enemies, however it is still traverseable. Players just have to navigate a bit more with caution and can still finish story quests etc…

If the players fail to push back a faction… well be ready to defend your city…

If players fight back certain faction to strongly on a server, i open the sugestion that the developer put in a “miracle” switch, in which a “push” can still happen, even if the counter wouldn`t allow it.
This would be acompanied by a special event. It would also allow for servers with high population to experience these situations

(edited by Jaken.6801)

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

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Posted by: Lheimroo.2947

Lheimroo.2947

Well, I have to vigorously (politely) disagree with the idea that in order to seem immediate, things like dungeons and such have to disappear quickly.

Why? There’s always been a temporal disconnect in dungeons – we understand that every dungeon in the game, in fact, is ‘done’ at this point in time. By the rules of living story, they’d be gone by now. Yet we traditionally suspend our disbelief in these games because we understand dungeons are stories about how we got to where we are.

If there needs to be a compromise, let the new dungeons stay for the whole length of the 3-4 month arc. And then ship them off to a new tab of the UI where we can review summaries of the ‘recent history of Tyria, as compiled by the noted Historian Whoevermacallit’.

With, say, an option to ‘relive our memories’..

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Posted by: Galen Grey.4709

Galen Grey.4709

The thing is, the chnages were smaller presented then the actual problem. That is why people don`r really recognize it as changes:

- As F&F was going on the story was about a lot of refuges coming from the north. However we never saw these places. Even if there was a zone in the north, we didn`t know where they come from. This didn`t help us get a conenction.
- Adding to it, the two new zones that were introduced (great zones, btw.), just appeared.
- The supposed flow of refuges ended up beeing three little camps in Hoelbrak, Black Citadel and Lions Arch. All of them not growing over four months, or changing to acomidate for the amount of supposed refuges (this had rescource problems as they said)

Nevertheless, the overall impact between what we see and what was told was big enough to create this rift in perception.

After F&F Southsun was revealed and we know about some refuges going over there.
- This has nothing to do with the refuges. The Karkas would have come with or without them, because the Consortium was meddling there either way. At this point however it was nice to know that some went there.

- The refuges only came back into play, as southsun had to be revived and here they were mostly a plot element. Aside from some diary entries and “fighting for them” you did no interact, so they ended up rather shallow.

What i want to say is, that while the refuges are the conenction between the three LS, Southsun could have worked without them, as their influence for the player is small.

While the moral behind it is dark and grim. Slavery isn`t a nice topic and using the downfall of others to your advantage isn`t great either. The problem here lies with the fact, that we don`t have any connection to these refugees. They have no spokesmen we connect to, they are just a group with no real face. Even Canach who “fought” for them, doesn`t really count, since he was a third faction in that dilemma.

Partially true, Cragstead didnt exist before F&F, it was an entire town created just for the invasion and was basically representative of the occupation / displacement. That being said you’re right it wouldnt account for all the refugees there were other places that were displaced we never got to see.

Thats incorrect, the refugees camps actually increased in size week after week. They only stopped growing once the molten alliance came out in the open and I guess that was accounted for by the PCs saving towns now that they were aware.

Thats also partically incorrect. Canach came out of hiding and messed with the wild life in order to have them attack consortium infrastructure was to protect the refugees as a result of the consortium legal abuse. No F&F = No Refugees = No reason for Canach to come out of hiding. Of course Refugees themselves where not needed for the events to be created they’re just the plot device that used. Could have been the consortium digging to deep or another plot device but story wise that doesnt change the fact that we got the Queen Karka meta event as a result of changes to the world caused by F&F.

Actually we do, in F&F you could talk the refugees and there were also some for whom you had to get mementos back. Those mementos had touching stories behind them . While during southsun they did go off centre stage and their dialog was mostly about how they got tricked by the consortium and how they didnt get what was promised to them once they moved to Cragstead they actually tell you how their lives got better now that they moved to Cragstead and how getting the mementos back actually helped them. None of this was part of the story, it was just some great extra work that makes the world seem more alive.

You could argue that refugees were superfluous and that the same sequence of events could happen without them sure but they brought realism to the world. I think people underestimate the importance of these little things. Personally I feel these little changes are as important if not more then actual playable content.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

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Posted by: dregoloth.8763

dregoloth.8763

-snip-

It’s actually not as simple as that. The process for outlining a year’s worth of content involves working with a number of different teams to realize the story vision while also addressing the needs of the game. Story and gameplay need to work together, and sometimes that means doing what is best for the game as a whole and adjusting the story to make it work.

I’d love for you to tell us exactly how maneuverable/agile your content pipeline is right now. Because it’s clear that while you’re definitely listening, and in some places agreeing with our critiques on the game; you’re too hampered by the momentum built up around your past decisions/plans to quickly shift the direction of the game, so you have to wait until ‘next season’ as it were, to implement anything but minor changes.

What exactly does your content development cycle look like? I think that giving us some perspective in this area might do wonders to the quality of our feedback, and give us a good idea of what might be possible and what would be out of the question.

Knowing all the pillars of your current design philosophy and how set in stone they are might help, too.

(edited by dregoloth.8763)

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Posted by: Jaken.6801

Jaken.6801

- snip -

You could argue that refugees were superfluous and that the same sequence of events could happen without them sure but they brought realism to the world. I think people underestimate the importance of these little things. Personally I feel these little changes are as important if not more then actual playable content.

Ah, true true. However the refugee camps never did grow “really big” and the size increase was not very noticeable.

I also forgot how you were able to talk to the refugees as you come back to southsun.

As for Canach,… well the quest sadly bugged out for me, so my mind is a little fuzzy there.

However you are right. These little things are important and i think i mentioned them before. We need this consistency.
Nevertheless, how it is delivered is key and i feel that they learned their lesson.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

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Posted by: Elbegast.6970

Elbegast.6970

For a Living World, we need:
Seasons
Better Weather Effects
Dark Nights (no, not Christian Bale)
Purchasable Real Estate
Player Owned Shops
Player Owned Farms (for Livestock and Produce)
Fishing, Hunting & Farming Professions
Player-Generated Dynamic Events

For a Living Story, we need:
An In-Game Calendar that lists recurring festival events and distinguishes them apart from the Living Story releases.
Shorter story arcs, more zone-by-zone storytelling and less focus on larger player-funneling zerg events.

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Posted by: Einlanzer.1627

Einlanzer.1627

For a Living World, we need:
Seasons
Better Weather Effects
Dark Nights (no, not Christian Bale)
Purchasable Real Estate
Player Owned Shops
Player Owned Farms (for Livestock and Produce)
Fishing, Hunting & Farming Professions
Player-Generated Dynamic Events

For a Living Story, we need:
An In-Game Calendar that lists recurring festival events and distinguishes them apart from the Living Story releases.
Shorter story arcs, more zone-by-zone storytelling and less focus on larger player-funneling zerg events.

I’m a fan of this post. This can all happen in conjunction with larger lore/world updates that are merged with the Personal Story and focused on expanding the world with new content rather than changing or disrupting it through alterations to existing content.

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Posted by: Galen Grey.4709

Galen Grey.4709

I am currious as to why so many people feel say F&F didnt leave any impact behind it after it finished.

F&F created the refuges. Those refuges built quite a few structures in Southsun and were the reason for canachs actions that in turn generated new events that are there till this day. The refugees subsequently moved to cragstead which up until end of secrets of southsun was a burned down rubble. They have since then rebuild it and are now living there.

F&F not only changed the world directly while it was going on but also did so indirectly for 2 subsequent LW releases. Are people who say F&F didnt leave anything behind unaware of these changes or simply dont consider them changes for some reason. If so I would be curious to know those reasons.

The refugees where a plotdevice nothing more. Anet could have used baby orphan quaggans and made almost the same story. That is not having an impact or a lasting effect to me. Nothing in diessa and wayfarer tells you F&F was there. So no F&F did not leave a lasting effect on the world.

But then what does? Frodo and his whole journey to destroy the ring was a plot device too, They could just as well got one of those flying eagles to carry it and drop it in mount doom.

The same argument could apply to content as well. If MF dungeon had remained permanently in game you could argue that it was a plot device too, that the whole invasion could just as easily have ended if instead of a dungeon they had a mini boss fight in the open world .

Change occurs if change occurs just cause something different could have cause that same change it doesnt make it any less change.

As for what tells you the molten alliance were there, well there is the refugees themselves in Cragstead, Cragstead the town, the Gyzers as well as the Occasional clockwork invasion. All of these didnt exist before F&F and occured as a direct result of it.

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Posted by: Seras.5702

Seras.5702

For a Living World, we need:
Seasons
Better Weather Effects
Dark Nights (no, not Christian Bale)

  • yes to the above *

Purchasable Real Estate
Player Owned Shops
Player Owned Farms (for Livestock and Produce)
Fishing, Hunting & Farming Professions

  • no to the above. this isn’t The Sims or an RTS *

Player-Generated Dynamic Events

  • explain *
Flixx Gatebuster (Engineer)
[HATE], Yak’s Bend(NA)

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Posted by: Galen Grey.4709

Galen Grey.4709

- snip -

You could argue that refugees were superfluous and that the same sequence of events could happen without them sure but they brought realism to the world. I think people underestimate the importance of these little things. Personally I feel these little changes are as important if not more then actual playable content.

Ah, true true. However the refugee camps never did grow “really big” and the size increase was not very noticeable.

I also forgot how you were able to talk to the refugees as you come back to southsun.

As for Canach,… well the quest sadly bugged out for me, so my mind is a little fuzzy there.

However you are right. These little things are important and i think i mentioned them before. We need this consistency.
Nevertheless, how it is delivered is key and i feel that they learned their lesson.

which is why I said you’re partially right, because yeah no doubt the camp size didn’t reflect the actual refugee influx. In fact if it had probably holbrak would be the refugee camp inside of refugee camp with all those people walking in every day

There is definitely room for improvement when it comes to delivery. This is something Arenanet has consistently acknowledge so I am confident things will improve in this department. I just dont think its fair to say no change happened as a result of LW initiative cause plenty of things actually changed and evolved as the story moved forward.

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Posted by: Einlanzer.1627

Einlanzer.1627

Well, I have to vigorously (politely) disagree with the idea that in order to seem immediate, things like dungeons and such have to disappear quickly.

Why? There’s always been a temporal disconnect in dungeons – we understand that every dungeon in the game, in fact, is ‘done’ at this point in time. By the rules of living story, they’d be gone by now. Yet we traditionally suspend our disbelief in these games because we understand dungeons are stories about how we got to where we are.

If there needs to be a compromise, let the new dungeons stay for the whole length of the 3-4 month arc. And then ship them off to a new tab of the UI where we can review summaries of the ‘recent history of Tyria, as compiled by the noted Historian Whoevermacallit’.

With, say, an option to ‘relive our memories’..

I also agree with this. The whole concept of temporary/changing content = a living world is very, very misguided and a notion they seem to have trouble divorcing themselves from. The world will feel dynamic and ‘living’ just by being expanded with new content; you don’t need to waste development resources by removing what was there before (unless it’s to update something that was bad) or force players onto a specific timeline for participating in events.

In fact, attempting to do so carries the potential to cause more harm than good because it means Arenanet is driving the narrative themselves when it should be Arenanet doing the world-building but letting players drive the narrative through their characters.

(edited by Einlanzer.1627)

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Einlanzer.1627

Einlanzer.1627

For a Living World, we need:
Seasons
Better Weather Effects
Dark Nights (no, not Christian Bale)

  • yes to the above *

Purchasable Real Estate
Player Owned Shops
Player Owned Farms (for Livestock and Produce)
Fishing, Hunting & Farming Professions

  • no to the above. this isn’t The Sims or an RTS *

Player-Generated Dynamic Events

  • explain *

Player owned housing/shops/etc has been done in many MMOs and I think it’s likely more players want it than not.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: BobbyStein

Previous

BobbyStein

Guild Wars 2 Lead Writer

Next

THAT’S where all the bad blood surrounding that event comes from.
Simple greed.
And that’s the game’s fault. If it really were more about content than the reward, I’m sure feedback in general would be a lot more positive.

Ummm…no. That might be true for some people, maybe even a lot of people, but not for all people.

What upset me about the event is that I missed it, and couldn’t get a clear answer on just what the hell had happened during it. All I got (at the time, mind you) was a confused mess of answers that had me feeling very left out. Did I want the reward? Well, sure, but “missed reward” was hardly on my radar at the time. I wanted the story, I wanted to see what everyone else had seen. There’s always another chance at a reward from something else, but I was to NEVER get to be in that part of the story, and that sucked.

This is why we need a better mechanism to re-tell the story of missed LS events. I had suggested either in an in-game or out of game Lore Book that details not only the history of LS, but of Guild Wars as well. This will also help players who never played GW1 understand the original lore.

But this story telling can’t simply be one paragraph for each LS. I don’t want to see one paragraph introduce roxx during flame and frost and then explain what happened in a few short sentences within the paragraph. The explanation must be drawn out enough so that nothing is left to the imagination, other than trying to recreate the story in my mind from the words written by Arenanet.

Bobbystein, what do you think of this?

It’s a great idea that’s very similar to the ones that we’ve been discussing internally for months now. Here’s the catch: we’re limited in how much room we have to display text inside a UI element, unless we want to allow scrolling. Also, the more words we put in there the less likely most players will read it to the end, and the more expensive it will be to localize once we scale up the feature to include all Living World releases (and whatever other content we decide to reference with it). We have to find that sweet spot where players get the information they need while also conforming to our technical and budgetary constraints. That’s not always easy.

So while I think it’s entirely possible that we can implement such a feature we are limited in how much historical text we can display. But if players are able to “fill in the gaps” somehow, then I think they’ll get what they need out of it. I wish I could say more because I think our current designs are pretty exciting, but we’re just not ready to discuss them in detail just yet.

Regarding GW1 lore in the game, I think it’d be really compelling to have in-game books or some other delivery device to allow players to immerse themselves in Tyria’s history.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: BobbyStein

Previous

BobbyStein

Guild Wars 2 Lead Writer

Next

For a Living World, we need:
Seasons
Better Weather Effects
Dark Nights (no, not Christian Bale)
Purchasable Real Estate
Player Owned Shops
Player Owned Farms (for Livestock and Produce)
Fishing, Hunting & Farming Professions
Player-Generated Dynamic Events

For a Living Story, we need:
An In-Game Calendar that lists recurring festival events and distinguishes them apart from the Living Story releases.
Shorter story arcs, more zone-by-zone storytelling and less focus on larger player-funneling zerg events.

I’m a fan of this post. This can all happen in conjunction with larger lore/world updates that are merged with the Personal Story and focused on expanding the world with new content rather than changing or disrupting it through alterations to existing content.

Yeah, these are some interesting ideas.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Einlanzer.1627

Einlanzer.1627

THAT’S where all the bad blood surrounding that event comes from.
Simple greed.
And that’s the game’s fault. If it really were more about content than the reward, I’m sure feedback in general would be a lot more positive.

Ummm…no. That might be true for some people, maybe even a lot of people, but not for all people.

What upset me about the event is that I missed it, and couldn’t get a clear answer on just what the hell had happened during it. All I got (at the time, mind you) was a confused mess of answers that had me feeling very left out. Did I want the reward? Well, sure, but “missed reward” was hardly on my radar at the time. I wanted the story, I wanted to see what everyone else had seen. There’s always another chance at a reward from something else, but I was to NEVER get to be in that part of the story, and that sucked.

This is why we need a better mechanism to re-tell the story of missed LS events. I had suggested either in an in-game or out of game Lore Book that details not only the history of LS, but of Guild Wars as well. This will also help players who never played GW1 understand the original lore.

But this story telling can’t simply be one paragraph for each LS. I don’t want to see one paragraph introduce roxx during flame and frost and then explain what happened in a few short sentences within the paragraph. The explanation must be drawn out enough so that nothing is left to the imagination, other than trying to recreate the story in my mind from the words written by Arenanet.

Bobbystein, what do you think of this?

It’s a great idea that’s very similar to the ones that we’ve been discussing internally for months now. Here’s the catch: we’re limited in how much room we have to display text inside a UI element, unless we want to allow scrolling. Also, the more words we put in there the less likely most players will read it to the end, and the more expensive it will be to localize once we scale up the feature to include all Living World releases (and whatever other content we decide to reference with it). We have to find that sweet spot where players get the information they need while also conforming to our technical and budgetary constraints. That’s not always easy.

So while I think it’s entirely possible that we can implement such a feature we are limited in how much historical text we can display. But if players are able to “fill in the gaps” somehow, then I think they’ll get what they need out of it. I wish I could say more because I think our current designs are pretty exciting, but we’re just not ready to discuss them in detail just yet.

Regarding GW1 lore in the game, I think it’d be really compelling to have in-game books or some other delivery device to allow players to immerse themselves in Tyria’s history.

Personally, I just think that certain segments of the LS (specifically the F&F and Aetherblade content) need to just be re-implemented as permanent content that function as expansions to the Personal Story.

Other, smaller events can be done as temporary content that works like side stories used to enhance existing lore and can maintain autonomy from the larger story. This can be chronicled in a new UI.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: timmyf.1490

timmyf.1490

Elbegast had some good ideas. Here’s a few more:

1) New Guild Challenges / Puzzles that relate to the Living Story releases.

2) “Vanquishing” of a sort – have a “home base” for certain enemy types with a large number of powerful enemies. When you attack it, a timer starts. If you kill all enemies before the timer stops, you get a chest. If you do not kill all enemies when the timer runs out, they all respawn. (This seems like a fun activity you could quickly gather a group to do. It’s also something that I imagine would be relatively quick to build.)

3) Mini-game consumables. Not strictly a Living Story thing, but you could go wild with this one. I’m the leader of a small guild and I’m always looking for fun things my guild can do as a group. There are some “games” we can play to blow off steam and have a good time. (One example: darts, a game where people jump to their deaths off of some structure in an attempt to land as close as possible to a target.) Having consumables – like a target that can output the player distance – could make these games easier/more fun or add bunches of new possibilities. They don’t have to be as complicated as something like Belcher’s Bluff…

One more mini-game idea: a navigation challenge. Somebody (guild leader?) picks two points. Contestants must go from point A to point B without waypointing and without using the map. This is impossible to enforce right now, but a “Start” consumable could conceivably lock the player out of those functions.

Again, those aren’t strictly Living Story things, but they are fun ways you might be able to get people back out into the world.

Guild Leader – [MEGA] Super Mega Happy Fun Time on Sanctum of Rall
www.supermegahappyfuntime.com

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Elbegast.6970

Elbegast.6970

For a Living World, we need:
Seasons
Better Weather Effects
Dark Nights (no, not Christian Bale)

  • yes to the above *

Purchasable Real Estate
Player Owned Shops
Player Owned Farms (for Livestock and Produce)
Fishing, Hunting & Farming Professions

  • no to the above. this isn’t The Sims or an RTS *

Player-Generated Dynamic Events

  • explain *

For the Player-Generated Dynamic Events, for example:

Okay, lets say I own a farm and have saved enough grateful NPCs around the world to hire some farm hands. How would my goods get to market?

From a drop-down menu or from a quick chat with my Farm Boss NPC, I send out some pack Dolyaks to carry my goods to town. This would start a scripted dynamic event. Other players could jump right in and help guard my caravan. If the goods make it to town, I get gold and the players get a standard reward of karma, xp, gold, random chest, etc. If the event fails, they get a little xp and I lose my goods to bandits.

I’m no fan of the SIMS but a living world has far more to do than simply running around killing things over and over again. Some people enjoy farming. Some people enjoy fishing. And I know many people who would be content to sit and play ‘Big Game Hunter’ for months on end.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Finnway.2183

Finnway.2183

Regarding GW1 lore in the game, I think it’d be really compelling to have in-game books or some other delivery device to allow players to immerse themselves in Tyria’s history.

Yeah! Why aren’t those in the game yet? One of the biggest problems with GW2 is the disconnect with lore. Just think of how much players enjoy exploring around EbonHawk. Add in a couple books, and an achievement for finding them, and you’re set!

EDIT: It would be really cool to implement this in every zone.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: trapline.8541

trapline.8541

Every story needs structure, why not have each story two cut scenes, one at the start and one at the end.
Each cut scene is similar to the queen’s jubilee one, and establish the story, then concludes it.
Take all the cuts scenes and put them on the website, with descriptive text.
When players want to come back after a break, or come to guildwars for the first time they go to “the story so far” section of the website and read/watch to catch up.
make the narratives tie in to each other and make sure they aren’t watered down and generic.. characters need to develop, struggle, die, triumph, betray..

After a year of the living story , Imagine what a new player coming to guildwars gets to see on the website, a large well written story with animated art that brings them up to speed and hooks them.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

For the Player-Generated Dynamic Events, for example:

Okay, lets say I own a farm and have saved enough grateful NPCs around the world to hire some farm hands. How would my goods get to market?

From a drop-down menu or from a quick chat with my Farm Boss NPC, I send out some pack Dolyaks to carry my goods to town. This would start a scripted dynamic event. Other players could jump right in and help guard my caravan. If the goods make it to town, I get gold and the players get a standard reward of karma, xp, gold, random chest, etc. If the event fails, they get a little xp and I lose my goods to bandits.

This right here is GOOD STUFF. It’s almost entirely composed of parts we have and can see in the game right now.

Although, I think to keep from confusing people, you may want to call them “Player-triggered Events”. Just so readers know the Devs have to do all the set-up, but control over their use and activation is then in player hands.

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

THAT’S where all the bad blood surrounding that event comes from.
Simple greed.
And that’s the game’s fault. If it really were more about content than the reward, I’m sure feedback in general would be a lot more positive.

Ummm…no. That might be true for some people, maybe even a lot of people, but not for all people.

What upset me about the event is that I missed it, and couldn’t get a clear answer on just what the hell had happened during it. All I got (at the time, mind you) was a confused mess of answers that had me feeling very left out. Did I want the reward? Well, sure, but “missed reward” was hardly on my radar at the time. I wanted the story, I wanted to see what everyone else had seen. There’s always another chance at a reward from something else, but I was to NEVER get to be in that part of the story, and that sucked.

This is why we need a better mechanism to re-tell the story of missed LS events. I had suggested either in an in-game or out of game Lore Book that details not only the history of LS, but of Guild Wars as well. This will also help players who never played GW1 understand the original lore.

But this story telling can’t simply be one paragraph for each LS. I don’t want to see one paragraph introduce roxx during flame and frost and then explain what happened in a few short sentences within the paragraph. The explanation must be drawn out enough so that nothing is left to the imagination, other than trying to recreate the story in my mind from the words written by Arenanet.

Bobbystein, what do you think of this?

It’s a great idea that’s very similar to the ones that we’ve been discussing internally for months now. Here’s the catch: we’re limited in how much room we have to display text inside a UI element, unless we want to allow scrolling. Also, the more words we put in there the less likely most players will read it to the end, and the more expensive it will be to localize once we scale up the feature to include all Living World releases (and whatever other content we decide to reference with it). We have to find that sweet spot where players get the information they need while also conforming to our technical and budgetary constraints. That’s not always easy.

So while I think it’s entirely possible that we can implement such a feature we are limited in how much historical text we can display. But if players are able to “fill in the gaps” somehow, then I think they’ll get what they need out of it. I wish I could say more because I think our current designs are pretty exciting, but we’re just not ready to discuss them in detail just yet.

Regarding GW1 lore in the game, I think it’d be really compelling to have in-game books or some other delivery device to allow players to immerse themselves in Tyria’s history.

I for one wouldn’t mind scrolling. However, does it have to be in game? Wouldn’t it be more cost effective and easier to simply create an addition onto this page, http://www.guildwars2.com , to include a lore section. You can then break it up into sub sections that go into detail about GW1 lore, then GW2 lore, and then into the Living story, sort of sequentially.

Having in game books to read is fun too. Allowing us to find them would be even better. But I would only do the ‘scavenger hunt’ for these books for the GW1 lore.

Bottom line, there needs to be some medium that goes into quasi-sufficient detail about living story events whether it is in game or out of game.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

Regarding GW1 lore in the game, I think it’d be really compelling to have in-game books or some other delivery device to allow players to immerse themselves in Tyria’s history.

I’m having another of my elaborate thoughts on how to take this to the next level of cool, but I’m waiting to hear back on if we can get special dispensation in the Collaborative Development threads to format our ideas attractively.

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Elbegast.6970

Elbegast.6970

For the Player-Generated Dynamic Events, for example:

Okay, lets say I own a farm and have saved enough grateful NPCs around the world to hire some farm hands. How would my goods get to market?

From a drop-down menu or from a quick chat with my Farm Boss NPC, I send out some pack Dolyaks to carry my goods to town. This would start a scripted dynamic event. Other players could jump right in and help guard my caravan. If the goods make it to town, I get gold and the players get a standard reward of karma, xp, gold, random chest, etc. If the event fails, they get a little xp and I lose my goods to bandits.

This right here is GOOD STUFF. It’s almost entirely composed of parts we have and can see in the game right now.

Although, I think to keep from confusing people, you may want to call them “Player-triggered Events”. Just so readers know the Devs have to do all the set-up, but control over their use and activation is then in player hands.

P layer I nitiated E vents’ ; D

But in seriousness, they could scale with the number of defensive players to include champion mob spawns. If I were a bandit and saw a large entourage guarding a simple goods caravan, I would probably call in some backup in anticipation of a valuable haul.

And on a side note, trophies could be utilized, graphically, as decoration for player owned properties rather than being relegated to simple vendor trash. I would love to tell a troll that I’m going to turn his rib cage into a coffee table.

Collaborative Development Topic- Living World

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: khani.4786

khani.4786

Colin / Chris / Powers that Be,

At the beginning of this thread, some thirty pages ago (my how time flies), there was a list of rules laid out to provide a framework for our discussion and to guide our expectations.

I would like to see an additional rule added~

7: So long as it serves to advance mature discussion or illustrate a creative point, the usual forum restrictions on the use of complex formatting will be suspended. This is a privilege. Do not squander it.

At its heart, this thread and the other Collaborative Discussions are about the philosophies and processes that underlie making art. For us as posters to contribute, one of our most powerful tools is to make art and use it as a demonstration of the philosophies and process we try to highlight and share.

I am a writer. I paint with words. But I also paint with rhythm, with inflection, with the visual appearance of those words on the page. This forum is equipped with POWERFUL TOOLS that help me keep one of my 1,000+ word proposals from dissolving into a monolithic unreadable wall of blah, blah, blah.

I have had one of my posts redacted (since reinstated) and my account infracted (still true) for wanting to give the best, most engaging, and most enlivening presentation of my thoughts that I could. My offense: knowing how to make a title line look better when leading into a massive proposal. My crime was using paint when talking about painting.

Please extend us a little latitude as we go forward together. You won’t be sorry you did.

Thank you

I would like to add my voice to this as I also had a post deleted and was infracted for trying to format my post to make it easier to read. I have a very hard time reading a wall of text and find that when I have a large amount to say it is easier for me to create headings and use the formatting tools available to create a clear message.

As for what I had to say, I guess that my voice won’t be heard anymore in this thread. I’ll continue to read what others say, I just feel very trodden upon about this whole thing.

* Carnished Toast [YUM] on Tarnished Coast *
Charrgril Roastfur | Charr | Ranger Extraordinaire
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