Collaborative Development

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Posted by: ZiemnyJoker.1763

ZiemnyJoker.1763

Hey Chris,
I have to ask this once more on this tread – will we have any opportunities to share our thougths on storyline and in which direction it should follow? Due to high numbers of post it could have been missed by you.
I, and I bet many more players, are very fascinated about the lore of Tyria and the ways it’s handed to the player base. Is there any chance we will see the same collaborative bridge between devs and players – such as me – at the topic of storyline, or some new possibilities of introducing it to the player base?
Greetings, Pat

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Posted by: Solid Gold.9310

Solid Gold.9310

“Shame on you all, tons of rangers are quitting the game becouse of your blindness.
Next Update October 15th will be last train for many rangers like me.
If you fail…simply consider ranger class died out”

You realize by now these decisions are set in stone right? So the class is either dead or it isn’t by now. While some changes are coming I hardly think you are going to get enough to make you really happy with them. Just a gut feeling.

Yes mate, I knwo myself there is no hope for ranger class
Just go reading ranger forums and look how many people are disgusted by Ranger current status.
Thx god new games are coming out..so..unless they do a good job on ranger..bye bye Arenanet))

Bit late here, but I also feel there’s no hope for the Ranger class, we are on our way out of the last chance saloon.

We were promised so much, only to be nerfed and nerfed again.

Will this “Collaborative Development” change anything for us, I very much doubt it.

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Posted by: Randulf.7614

Randulf.7614

Hey Chris,
I have to ask this once more on this tread – will we have any opportunities to share our thougths on storyline and in which direction it should follow? Due to high numbers of post it could have been missed by you.
I, and I bet many more players, are very fascinated about the lore of Tyria and the ways it’s handed to the player base. Is there any chance we will see the same collaborative bridge between devs and players – such as me – at the topic of storyline, or some new possibilities of introducing it to the player base?
Greetings, Pat

This was brought up earlier in the thread, but to save you scrolling back through – yes this was one of many such pve discussions that the community could have the chance to discuss in the format Chris is putting forward

Twilight Gathering (Gunnars Hold)
Proudly keyboard turning since 2003

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Posted by: Burnfall.9573

Burnfall.9573

“Shame on you all, tons of rangers are quitting the game becouse of your blindness.
Next Update October 15th will be last train for many rangers like me.
If you fail…simply consider ranger class died out”

You realize by now these decisions are set in stone right? So the class is either dead or it isn’t by now. While some changes are coming I hardly think you are going to get enough to make you really happy with them. Just a gut feeling.

Yes mate, I knwo myself there is no hope for ranger class
Just go reading ranger forums and look how many people are disgusted by Ranger current status.
Thx god new games are coming out..so..unless they do a good job on ranger..bye bye Arenanet))

Bit late here, but I also feel there’s no hope for the Ranger class, we are on our way out of the last chance saloon.

We were promised so much, only to be nerfed and nerfed again.

Will this “Collaborative Development” change anything for us, I very much doubt it.

Absolutely Agree with you.

In addition, as a Ranger, all this “Collaborative Development” talk is for Show.

Advocate of Justice, Liberty and Truth

(edited by Burnfall.9573)

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Posted by: melodey.4652

melodey.4652

Is Anet considering anything drastic to address the issue of population imbalances in WvW? Like closing servers, merging servers, locking transfers, shorting matchups, or reducing map capacity? I think it’s clear by now that the problem is simply compounding now as the months go on rather than improving.

quaggan tamer via lightning whip
sylvari ele | human mes | asura necro | norn guard | charr war | norn engi | sylvari thief
DH → HoD [XSV]| [Fin] ~ Fallyse

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Posted by: ZiemnyJoker.1763

ZiemnyJoker.1763

Hey Chris,
I have to ask this once more on this tread – will we have any opportunities to share our thougths on storyline and in which direction it should follow? Due to high numbers of post it could have been missed by you.
I, and I bet many more players, are very fascinated about the lore of Tyria and the ways it’s handed to the player base. Is there any chance we will see the same collaborative bridge between devs and players – such as me – at the topic of storyline, or some new possibilities of introducing it to the player base?
Greetings, Pat

This was brought up earlier in the thread, but to save you scrolling back through – yes this was one of many such pve discussions that the community could have the chance to discuss in the format Chris is putting forward

I hope we will have a chance to somehow impact on the story of Tyria.
Thank you very much have a nice day / night. ^^

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Posted by: Kaleban.9834

Kaleban.9834

No- I really do not like this idea.
The game is for all the players and all should be able to contribute if they wish.

You are essentially asking for class prefects.
A collaborative process is a brainstorm- not a he said- she said.
I certainly don’t want anybody but myself speaking for myself

My suggestion is not separating people into who’s opinion counts for more. In a sense, all the people on this forum represent the very hardcore, the general playerbase doesn’t really engage here, so already this forum somewhat represents my exact suggestion. I mean, do you really think that QQ posts in a profession sub-forum represents the entire playerbase’s thoughts on a specific issue?

Probably not. What I suggest simply is boiling down the essence of the pages and pages of posts that all say the same thing to one post, that a dev can go through without having to slog through posts that don’t actually contain feedback.

You already see this in some forums, where a player will start a thread asking for constructive feedback, gets many responses, and the OP then edits the original post to include these suggestions. Many times, the threads will include pointless QQ or arguments, but the OP usually omits all of that. All I’m suggesting is that ANet makes it an official capacity for players that pass muster, or are even voted on by the rest of the community. You’d then have posts acting as a SOTG, everyone else can contribute to it, but the OP would be responsible for collating the information and then updating the primary post, which a dev could then read and respond to in a clear manner, instead of having to placate multiple posters who all keep asking the same questions and seem not to read the rest of the thread.

I mean, do you really expect every dev to slog through twenty or thirty pages of posts on what some random player thinks of one specific trait? I actually think my suggestion has some merit, given the limitations of dev time.

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Posted by: Sytherek.7689

Sytherek.7689

“Shame on you all, tons of rangers are quitting the game becouse of your blindness.
Next Update October 15th will be last train for many rangers like me.
If you fail…simply consider ranger class died out”

You realize by now these decisions are set in stone right? So the class is either dead or it isn’t by now. While some changes are coming I hardly think you are going to get enough to make you really happy with them. Just a gut feeling.

Hyperbole.

Yes, the ranger could be improved.

I do not think it is unplayable in PvE. It’s not just me; I see hordes of rangers in-game, and ANet’s own stats show that the ranger is popular.

Dramatic, bellicose, demanding, exaggerated posts are not effective, and generally drive developers (I am one, other games) from forums.

In PvP, rangers have problems. Fine. Say something constructive, and don’t break my PvE cheese for your PvP cheese.

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Posted by: EverythingXen.1835

EverythingXen.1835

@Kaleban
I love the game, but I’m not going to be a volunteer moderator or community rep.

Anet has paid employees who should be doing what you describe. If theyre not, that’s a seperate issue.

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Posted by: Treeline.3865

Treeline.3865

Just four words from me before this thread closes – Now I don’t know whether this sudden interest in the community will end with something good, but I certainly hope for it.

So four words: Thanks for finally caring!

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Posted by: Kraag Deadsoul.2789

Kraag Deadsoul.2789

Why are Legos one of the most wildly successful toy lines ever created? Because they are not a toy. Rather, they are the infrastructure that permit children to build their own toys. Legos facilitate and support a child’s creativity rather than dictate to that child what they can create (at least the older generation of Legos did; let’s leave aside for the moment all the themed, market-driven, movie-tie-in, rigid sets that have come out in recent years).

But you CAN’T leave aside that, it’s core.

Lego went down this road because kids over the last 30 years have ceased to be able to think for themselves and now are programmed to follow pre-defined paths. This change to Lego is symptomatic of a societal change that can also be traced to the way games in general and computer games in particular have changed.

Text adventures disappeared because they required the player to think, instead they were replaced by pictures you mindlessly could click on and eventually ‘solve’ the problem.

Fast forward to today and you have ‘sandbox’ and ‘theme park’ MMOs, and the trend is inexorably towards the pre-programmed, no-thought-required theme-park variety.

Rigid thinking and tunnel vision is as the heart of this, free-thinking isn’t what many kids do these days and that carries on and is expressed in the way MMOs as one category of games have gone.

In education, modern politically correct dogma says no child must be told they’re a failure, even when it’s patently obvious they have no talent for something. The way you ensure no one fails is to dumb down things to the point where only a total moron (in the dictionary definition senses) can’t do it: see the pattern in games, especially MMOs?

I’m fully aware of and agree with your analysis of the larger societal issues of which current Lego design, game design, et al. are merely a symptom. However, I also believe too much stock is put into victim-mentality-syndrome.

Limiting the scope of discussion to GW2, I believe it to be a game designed by very creative people who – for reasons I’ll leave out of this discussion for the time being – are held back from seeing the game reach its full potential. What’s more, I also believe the player base are equally creative. A perusal of the forums alone should lead one to that conclusion.

So throwing one’s hands up in the air and bemoaning the state of society in general with a final dismissal of, “That’s just the way it is.” is counter-productive. This thread wouldn’t exist if the developers and players accepted the victim mentality and weren’t full of imaginative ideas for how to improve the game. The fact that we’re here discussing these issues demonstrates the creativity and potential that we – all of us, developers and players alike – possess. Now we just need the road blocks removed that are holding us back from achieving that potential.

I’m not trying to paint an overly-optimistic picture of rainbows and puppy dogs. Nor am I entirely letting the developers off the hook for the game’s shortcomings to date. However, I have a sneaky suspicion that our collective problems have less to do with the rank-and-file programmers, artists, designers, et al. and more to do with the those with executive authority over them; even from outside of ArenaNet itself. But I’ll stop there as I’ve probably said too much already.

Perhaps GW2 can be ground-breaking in more than one way by reversing the trend identified above and introducing (re-introducing?) player-driven creativity to gaming. Now THAT would be game changing!

So many souls, so little time. ~ Kraag Deadsoul

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Posted by: Sirendor.1394

Sirendor.1394

Primarily the monetization of the game, secondly, the crafting process (from gathering to finished product).

I’ve spent plenty of money on vanity items and perma-gathering tools, etc. But (I can hear them now, Vayne and everyone are going “oh god, here he goes again”), when I step out of Lion’s Arch to focus on crafting something, I want to move towards it with confidence.

Confidence that I can gather those materials I need, that I can seek out their sources and if necessary farm those sources until I have what I need. I don’t want to feel like getting 250 Armored Scales is impossible compared to farming gold to buy them. In the long run, that is what I wound up doing. I farmed scarlet invasions and before that the Crown Pavillion until I had 300gold with which I simply bought the remaining T6 mats that I needed for my legendary gifts, simply because it is unrealistic to play casually and gather 250 of each material the traditional way. I’d like to gather the materials without feeling like I’m taxed 15% to do so.

I’d like to adventure my way to a legendary. Not buy my way. Not gamble my way. I’m probably the only person on Yak’s Bend that thinks Ascended Weapons crafting is the best thing to happen to crafting ever in this game. You can gather materials reliably, without Diminishing Returns limiting you. If I want to take my characters and run through all the zones in the game 8 times to gather all the soft wood logs that I can get, I can do that.

Hi Neural,

This is definitely an area we should discuss as one of the topics, specifically the perception around goal completion in regard to the gem store. This is certainly an area of the game that i think about a lot.

I am looking forward to collaborating with you moving forward and thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Chris

Personally I feel the focus in this game has, sadly, been directed too often toward economy and not often enough toward the playing itself. I understand some people want a goal, but I can barely contain why farming money should be that goal.

The main reason people play a game is to have fun. That can be on a short term, or a long term. Short term is for me having an incredibly fun experience doing a jumping puzzle or fighting of 20 enemy players in WvW with a group of 5.
Long term fun I see in terms of character development.

In guild wars 2 character development is:

  • Legendary
  • Ascended gear
  • Skins
  • Achievements

For me: Legendary is a gold grind, Ascended gear is a time-gated content that focuses too much on PvE players for acquisition, but influences WvW on a large scale (I hear notion of 20% more strength than people with a full exotic set?). Skins personally are fine for me, but I think you should get them from a real challenge, not from farming champions with a zerg of 50 players, killing the champion in 30 seconds OR from farming gold. Achievements in itself are just numbers and don’t provide a goal to me.

So basically I don’t have any long-term goals in this game or any feel of progression, and I think this is one of the core problems the community on these forums experience.

The gem store as Neural finds it, I don’t have any issue with. Either work for gold a day or two for that feature you want or just buy gems in real life. None of the things in the gem store are actually needed for playing the game, so no matter. The matter of gold and everything in this game being about farming one currency or another… is a grave issue to me.

Let me hear your thoughts on this! I look forward to it

/salute to my 5 dead guilds

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Posted by: Rama.6439

Rama.6439

Hi,

As detailed in the thread the point of this initiative is to get us back to a more constructive dialog. We have been super super busy all this year and with the help of the community we are trying to create a sustainable process in which we can have constructive discussion and brainstorming around specific areas of the game without hampering the output or quality of the GW2. We hope that this process works out and that we will see 2 way discussion from the community and devs on a daily basis across all the areas of the game.

Chris, I actually think most of the posts on these forums were actually constructive. Yes there were some with anger and trolling but most were constructive. However, a lot of the constructive ones were negative (some extremely negative). And I have noticed they are getting more negative as time goes on. I notice these three topics mostly:

  • Promises not being met (real or perceived)
  • Things/balance not being fixed or looked at quickly enough. (Some have taken a long time to be fixed or even addressed)
  • Expectations of content (temp vs perma; 2-week updates vs. something else)

I personally think, unless those things are addressed and communicated correctly, nothing will change.

Thanks.

Agree with post 100%, especially about the promises not being met and this is in no way to be rude, but when promises are made, and then broken, and when they say hey we will be adding this into the game by this time and then they turn around and don’t do it and do that over and over again and expect us to just believe what is said, sorry, there is only so much that we can take before we have to call you out.

No more promises please, just do what you said you would do in the first place, that would make a lot of the veteran players happy, might get a lot of the players that left to come back also.

I like what Sirendor said about the game being pretty much a grind, it is, and it gets boring, I agree that there is absolutely no skill needed in this game at all to aquire anything and that is sad, I think that skins should need to be aquired with tough hard to kill bosses, legendaries to, not this rng that anyone can get 2-3 from the forge in 5 mins, that just isnt right, I mean why even try to be good at anything in this game if all you have to do is be 80 and spam 1?

Arcubus Balefire – 80 Guardian
Välkyri – 80 Warrior
JQ[Lulz] – Kill fur Thrillz…

(edited by Rama.6439)

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Posted by: Sirendor.1394

Sirendor.1394

Hi All,

So back to the matter at hand. Through reading the posts i think it would be really useful for me to start a thread like ‘name one thing you would like to see improved in Guild Wars 2’ and then start riffing with you all on these subjects matters and try to make a more meaningful connection with you all that way by which we can define a process together for Collaborative Development?

I am also going to ask that we build out more time for team members to post and i will follow up with you all on that.

What do you think, does this sound like a good way to move forward?

Chris

Hello Chris,

I for one would welcome a discussion thread like that and I hope a lot of the people in-game will do this, no matter which perspective they speak for. Lets hope a lot of good comes from it!

/salute to my 5 dead guilds

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Posted by: Sirendor.1394

Sirendor.1394

Hi Chris,

I still attest this is an odd thread, maybe just the tone of the first post is confusing. Since you guys seem serious about it, I’ll make a constructive suggestion.

It’s definitely true that many issues have been resolved. An example is magic find – the previous implementation was generic and caused a lot of animosity; the newer iteration is well designed, a lot more open to the community and resolves the previous issues. There are a few things however, which are raised time and time again but there is little dev response on these. Even if you guys are working on solutions, how about just creating high level threads acknowledging the problem, what the community thinks about it and peoples ideas for solutions. Even if said ideas raised are not considered, having a place on the forums which shows the developers acknowledge the issue and are showing they want to resolve it, will solve so many conspiracy threads and help resolve so much of the negative feedback on these forums. Examples of higher level topics which are raised over and over again:

Ascended Gear
- Weapons based on crafting or unlikely RNG drops. No skill based achievement patterns.
- Trinkets based on repeating content multiple times which is not ideal for all players due to requirements of content, such as being in a large guild. No crafting or skill based individual content.
- No ascended backpieces or accessories in wvw (accessories have same cost as PVE, no badge cost)

WVW
- Accound bound ranks
- Server imbalance
- T1 > Tarnished Coast > T2 > coverage = main factor in deciding matchups
- Class balance focused around pvp where perma stealth and banner revving not a problem, yet is ignored in terms of wvw balance.
- Bloodlust buff creating unfair and artificial advantages
- Power creep in passive buffs (bloodlust, guard stacks, world health bonus etc)

PVP
- Lack of game modes
- Community dropping off
- Balance issues (Jonathan did a good job highlighting coming changes, but little is discussed to do with toning down over the top elements which are ruining the current meta)
- No rewards or incentive for high level play with current meta/lack of teams

Fractals:
- Fractal level being character bound instead of account bound
- Unable to salvage fractal weapons
- Lower general rewards than open world pve yet higher difficulity
- Artifical scaling in terms of mob health
- Best rewards (unique skins) being RNG based

General PVE
- Too much temporary content
- Bleed cap/generally bad to use condi builds for team play
- Imbalanced rewards/risk/effort. For example, fire ele vs shatterer
- Precursor system totally based on rng

Devon used to do a great job in posting in the WVW forums, usually once a week he would go through and address a number of points. I don’t blame him for stopping this with the animosity caused by Bloodlust, but it was an example and people respected him for it. It’s simply a case okittennowledging there may be a potential issue and putting it out there to see how people respond. Even just creating a single thread, for discussion, once a week, with a dev post every 2 days, would do SO MUCH to help some of the anger on these forums – which again does not come from all users, but is noticeable in pockets of users which then grows larger with more and more negative feedback cycles. Also splitting the suggestion forum into a pvp suggestion forum, wvw suggestion forum, general suggestion etc will make that less of a mess.

By the way, the balance devs have stated multiple times before they only read the sPVP forum section and do not read the class forums – yet a lot to do will balance will show in the class forums as the game isn’t just pvp. The only time we see posts in the class forum seems to be regarding bugs. A ‘State of the Mesmer’ etc thread once a month by a balance dev would be nice… you never know, we may teach them a thing or two about the class in the progress. There is only 8 classes, creating 8 threads explaining the current state of the class, what is too strong/needs work shouldn’t be too much work…

I strongly suggest reading this post, although it may be a bit negative, some points are valid.

/salute to my 5 dead guilds

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Posted by: Sirendor.1394

Sirendor.1394

@ Chris/ArenaNet:

Last post of the day for me now: I read through your suggestions for making specific threads per area, but I think this has both advantages and disadvantages.

Advantages being that you’ll be able to talk about specific subjects in their own area, keeping it rather orderly.
Disadvantages being that some issues at hand aren’t part of one specific area, but are present in each domain (grind problematic / ascended gear / the existence of zergs / achievements and several similar subjects).

I came up with one thought:

  • Create a communication forum
  • Make subforums for every domain of the game AND a general forum.
  • In subforums make one post per big issue that has specific impact
  • In general forums make one post per big issue that has general impact

I don’t know if this would take a lot of work, but sounds like the most analytic and organized way to handle this.

/salute to my 5 dead guilds

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Posted by: diamondgirl.6315

diamondgirl.6315

Many people share opinions; focusing the voices down for day to day feedback might help a lot. It doesn’t mean other voices would have no outlet.

Which guilds would you choose then? I mean when someone says in a convo that he/she is talking for guild xyz I find it ok, but what is with people without guild, what is with small guilds? What criteria would you choose to allow someone to take part in a discurs? I also don’t find it a good idea only to choose people who can write good feedbacks or answer mulitple choice questions pretty well, because it doesn’t necessarly mean that this person is objective. How do you want to make sure that the selection of people doesn’t already predeterminate the outcome of the discussion?

You misunderstand; I thought of guilds, but I like the above suggested idea of spokesplayers better.

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Posted by: Kyrel.8942

Kyrel.8942

I’m fond of this plan. A clear pipeline of communication on specific topics between community and Dev is better in my opinion than pick and choose a thread that’s like stepping through a mine field. Of course, all this is setting up the pipeline. Rome wasn’t built in a day and Rome still had problems.

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Posted by: Morrigan.2809

Morrigan.2809

No- I really do not like this idea.
The game is for all the players and all should be able to contribute if they wish.

You are essentially asking for class prefects.
A collaborative process is a brainstorm- not a he said- she said.
I certainly don’t want anybody but myself speaking for myself

My suggestion is not separating people into who’s opinion counts for more. In a sense, all the people on this forum represent the very hardcore, the general playerbase doesn’t really engage here, so already this forum somewhat represents my exact suggestion. I mean, do you really think that QQ posts in a profession sub-forum represents the entire playerbase’s thoughts on a specific issue?

Probably not. What I suggest simply is boiling down the essence of the pages and pages of posts that all say the same thing to one post, that a dev can go through without having to slog through posts that don’t actually contain feedback.

You already see this in some forums, where a player will start a thread asking for constructive feedback, gets many responses, and the OP then edits the original post to include these suggestions. Many times, the threads will include pointless QQ or arguments, but the OP usually omits all of that. All I’m suggesting is that ANet makes it an official capacity for players that pass muster, or are even voted on by the rest of the community. You’d then have posts acting as a SOTG, everyone else can contribute to it, but the OP would be responsible for collating the information and then updating the primary post, which a dev could then read and respond to in a clear manner, instead of having to placate multiple posters who all keep asking the same questions and seem not to read the rest of the thread.

I mean, do you really expect every dev to slog through twenty or thirty pages of posts on what some random player thinks of one specific trait? I actually think my suggestion has some merit, given the limitations of dev time.

I do agree with you about the forums and dev’s time.
Sure your suggestions have merit- and yes there have been incredibly well constructed posts/threads on here

As I understand it though- we will have an in-game poll via whatever means for the general players and then focused topics to be discussed by people who are vested in it.
This by itself is already a filter to a degree.
It is also fair

I also never got the impression that dev’s from all departments will now just suddenly reply to all threads- that is simply not realistic.

Instead from what I understand we will have more focused discussions with dev feedback on those specific things

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Posted by: RedStar.4218

RedStar.4218

The problem with an ingame polling system is that it wouldn’t reach people like me who don’t log in any more. So you’ll never find out why they left.

You’ve got everyone’s email addresses – why not send out surveys to those, like CCP does?

Email scams aren’t uncommon and a lot of players made another email address only for GW2 and don’t really bother checking it.
Also if you don’t play the game anymore how can you provide input on newer content ? Or even the general gameplay ?
A poll is something simple that gives a general overview, not something detailed as to find out why someone left.

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Posted by: notebene.3190

notebene.3190

This is such a rare and wonderful opportunity, so I have to ask: Will there be a way for us to pass on suggestions and receive feedback on more quality-of-life type enhancements, specifically to do with i.e. UI improvements, mouse/keyboard input and ideas surrounding a fixes for things like the camera collision issues (the jumpyness), extra menu options for FoV and even vertical camera offset adjustments?

It would be really great to get some dialog going surrounding these things, since they really affect gameplay at the most basic level … and some of these unresolved issues are quite old now. It would really make my day getting some info about these things, and I’m sure others share my eagerness as well.

Also, thank you for being so proactive Chris. It’s really great to have this type of interaction with the people behind this great game. I hope it will continue.

Hi,

We will do everything we can to make this work (-: . It is very exciting. In answer to your question:

Following the deployment of the first three threads and discussion with the community about what worked and what didn’t, we can then look at rolling out more global threads such as Quality of Life.

Chris

QoL was what I was just going to come out and ask about. Little things in life that aren’t so ‘weighty’ that maybe are sub par, or maybe worked one way for many months and then was mysteriously changed so it became difficult to work with, and we haven’t been able to get a good reason as to why.

Also, what about the forums themselves as a tool? These forums are rather sub par, in that you can’t watch threads and be notified of posts to discussions. Be notified when someone quotes you, responds to a specific question you have, etc.

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Posted by: Josh Foreman

Previous

Josh Foreman

Environment Design Specialist

Next

Hi everybody! Chris is encouraging a new era of developer/player interaction which I’m pretty excited about. So I’ll add my 2 cents to this thread. I don’t speak for all devs, but here’s what I personally would find most helpful…

Josh Foreman’s Tips for Constructive Feedback:

1. It’s most helpful if you state your request or actionable item at the top. Then your reasons below. This helps us find and reference your post, pass it around for discussion, etc.

2. Don’t assume the reason that things are the way they are due to developer incompetence, laziness, apathy, stubbornness, greed, selfishness, lust or any of the other deadly sins. There are other possibilities beside developer personal defects. “Just” changing one thing usually has ramifications on other things that are hard to anticipate. An MMO is an incredibly complex web of interdependencies, and tweaking any individual part runs the risk of breaking many other parts. That’s why we don’t typically jump to instant ‘fixes’ (even though it’s tempting!) and why things that seem like obvious problems can take a lot longer to address than many would intuitively think they should. There is no MAKE IT WORK button that we refuse to push out of spite. Even if that were the case, it just doesn’t make sense to insult the party you are requesting something from. In what part of the real world does that ever work? No one wants to ‘slap you in the face’ or make the game less fun. We love you guys, and are thrilled that people play our game!

3. Don’t assume that we can just rearrange resources to work on your particular issue. Most of our teams are very specialized. It takes a long time to build the experience necessary to be a good productive member of the PvP, Story, Systems, or any other team. Just because we have X programmers working on bug fixes and Y working on Gameplay improvements, doesn’t mean we can arbitrarily move those numbers around. It’s just not that simple.

4. Please stop calling us liars when we fail to implement something we intended to months ago, but for some technical, balance, or other reason found it to be untenable. We can’t be very open about our plans if every word we say is taken as a contractual obligation. Imagine if every word you said to your friends were recorded and played back at the most inopportune time in order to make you look like a fool. You’d probably clam up pretty quickly. Making an MMO, especially one as experimental as GW2 requires… experimenting. Requires making plans, following through, finding dead ends, back-tracking and trying something else. Sometimes that means that we will state a clear goal, test it internally and find out it just won’t work. The idea that this means we don’t have a clear vision is wrong. There is a difference between a core vision for our design principles, and the implementation of specific systems. We are very clear about the mountain we want to scale, but whether we do it in 4×4, on foot, with a grappling hook, or a hot air balloon are all contingent on the terrain we discover as we progress.

5. You are not “all players”. Please stop saying “Players want X” just because you want X. The fact is that players want X, Y, Z, and the rest of the alphabet, and most of those desires conflict with each other. And I guarantee you, anything that the vast majority of the players want, we (as players of our own game) also want. If you don’t understand why something the vast majority of players and the devs want is not implemented, see the above points 2-4. I have a people-pleaser mentality, so this is one of the hardest pills for me to swallow as a developer. I want EVERYONE to be happy. Unfortunately, the rules of the real world make that impossible.

So there you go. That’s my advice. I really believe that devs and players can work together in a healthy way. And this is my advice for making that a reality. Thanks for reading!

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Posted by: rizzo.1079

rizzo.1079

Josh Foreman dropping wisdom, great points man!

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Posted by: Atlas.9704

Atlas.9704

Two different red banners in this thread, things are getting interesting.
Much truth was spoken in that last one, good advice all around.

Shaemoor Hills Coffee, waking you from Grenth’s depths. Now with Cinnamon Centaur flavor.

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Posted by: Tommyknocker.6089

Tommyknocker.6089

WOW Josh, very concise and well said, BRAVO.

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Posted by: ilr.9675

ilr.9675

Thanks for the feedback over night and this morning.

Please note i am going to be afk for most of the day but will catch up as frequently as possible.

What i will do is create a thread on the PVE, WvW and PvP forums asking for the community to name 1 area of the said area that they would like to discuss first and then we will start the discussions on Monday.

Sounds good, …

But PLEASE don’t just put it here in General…. Either confine it to Dynamic Events forum, or Dungeon Forum. If it’s here in general, it will get way too much noise to signal ratio and focus on nothing at all…. It will be the ultimate Seinfeldian experience and leave you with 361 different headless chickens fighting over 360 degrees of tangentiality

(edited by ilr.9675)

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Posted by: Crazylegsmurphy.6430

Crazylegsmurphy.6430

Josh Foreman is so amazing! How is he not running the forums?

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Posted by: Morrigan.2809

Morrigan.2809

Thank you Josh and this post should be stickied on top of any feedback thread in the future- it might help

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Posted by: diamondgirl.6315

diamondgirl.6315

I have a running joke with one of my friends that devs are like unicorns. Stand very still and they might come up to you. Don’t spook the unicorns!!!

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Posted by: Randulf.7614

Randulf.7614

I vote stickying what Josh said in every subforum and then ensuring everyone is forced to read it as a pop up before posting!

Twilight Gathering (Gunnars Hold)
Proudly keyboard turning since 2003

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Posted by: Arimahn.3568

Arimahn.3568

I vote stickying what Josh said in every subforum and then ensuring everyone is forced to read it as a pop up before posting!

Because people will do that, sure.

Trying to get people to “post better” won’t do much because the people who are bad posters won’t read something like his stuff in the first place. That’s why I’m for a closed, specialized subforum where only choice player representatives can post. To keep the rabble and their “ME ME ME ME ME” out.

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Posted by: EverythingXen.1835

EverythingXen.1835

Good for a red-name with some forum cred to endorse this. This prospect is actually looking up.

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Posted by: Karizee.8076

Karizee.8076

Not enough thumbs up for your excellent post, Josh

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Posted by: McWolfy.5924

McWolfy.5924

“Shame on you all, tons of rangers are quitting the game becouse of your blindness.
Next Update October 15th will be last train for many rangers like me.
If you fail…simply consider ranger class died out”

You realize by now these decisions are set in stone right? So the class is either dead or it isn’t by now. While some changes are coming I hardly think you are going to get enough to make you really happy with them. Just a gut feeling.

Yes mate, I knwo myself there is no hope for ranger class
Just go reading ranger forums and look how many people are disgusted by Ranger current status.
Thx god new games are coming out..so..unless they do a good job on ranger..bye bye Arenanet))

Bit late here, but I also feel there’s no hope for the Ranger class, we are on our way out of the last chance saloon.

We were promised so much, only to be nerfed and nerfed again.

Will this “Collaborative Development” change anything for us, I very much doubt it.

i have a lvl 80 guardian and i dont like that. the game is too easy with a guardian after a ranger. now i lvl up a warrior. it is just lvl 47 and on this low level it bring more pwnage in line as my ranger ever. i play wvw btw

WSR→Piken→Deso→Piken→FSP→Deso
Just the WvW

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Posted by: EnemyCrusher.7324

EnemyCrusher.7324

So by the way we have two main topics of conversation now:

1: Polls: Every seems to like them but where do they go?
2: Game Feedback Collaboration: How do we want to do this?

Chris

What if you gave us an option to right click on certain things that would open a window like the ones used in beta to rate personal story quests. This could apply to all sorts of things around the game: right-click on the “Event Completed / Event Failed” reward popup to rate an event, right-click a task heart to rate that task, right click an achievement in the hero window to rate it, right-click the living story display to rate the current living story, etc. This system could be opted into or out of in the options window at any time.

Also, on a related note, you should expand the subcategories in the bug reporter to be more inclusive. I’ve reported countless things with the in-game bug reporter, and only about 10% of the time is there a category+subcategory combination that actually fits what I’m trying to report.

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Posted by: Imperatora.7654

Imperatora.7654

Dear gods yes to #4.

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Posted by: KOPPER.1458

KOPPER.1458

I apologize if I was a bit off topic. However I wanted to address my personal post because it seems it was misunderstood or poorly written by myself.

““Shame on you all, tons of rangers are quitting the game becouse of your blindness.
Next Update October 15th will be last train for many rangers like me.
If you fail…simply consider ranger class died out”

You realize by now these decisions are set in stone right? So the class is either dead or it isn’t by now. While some changes are coming I hardly think you are going to get enough to make you really happy with them. Just a gut feeling. "

I don’t believe ranger is useless or dead. This is the general consensus if you read the forums and clearly there are problems with the class. Chris Whiteside himself said that “they” are aware of it and are working on it. (I am paraphrasing)

My post was more directed at players who are taking their last stand with the Oct 15th patch. My point was that the decisions that needed to be made about that patch have been made and are set in stone. We will see Tuesday what those are. Threatening or stating that “I am leaving if X doesn’t happen” isn’t helpful and doesn’t garner proper attention.

I apologize for the misleading post. And for driving off topic.

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Posted by: A Massive Headache.1879

A Massive Headache.1879

I hope this is an appropriate thread to ask this, but will we see some living stories about past things, like in guild wars 1. Examples being like what happened to kraits vast transformations, where the original gargoyles and mergoyles went, what happened to guild wars 1 giants, or the fate of Menzies The Mad? it just feels like so many loose ends still, that I feel would be fitting of living story updates. I could be very wrong though I suppose. I’d also love to see the aquatic nature of karka

EDIT: I should have said can we see some of those living stories instead of will. I just wonder if it’s a possibility.

(edited by A Massive Headache.1879)

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Posted by: StriderShinryu.6923

StriderShinryu.6923

4. Please stop calling us liars when we fail to implement something we intended to months ago, but for some technical, balance, or other reason found it to be untenable. We can’t be very open about our plans if every word we say is taken as a contractual obligation. Imagine if every word you said to your friends were recorded and played back at the most inopportune time in order to make you look like a fool. You’d probably clam up pretty quickly. Making an MMO, especially one as experimental as GW2 requires… experimenting. Requires making plans, following through, finding dead ends, back-tracking and trying something else. Sometimes that means that we will state a clear goal, test it internally and find out it just won’t work. The idea that this means we don’t have a clear vision is wrong. There is a difference between a core vision for our design principles, and the implementation of specific systems. We are very clear about the mountain we want to scale, but whether we do it in 4×4, on foot, with a grappling hook, or a hot air balloon are all contingent on the terrain we discover as we progress.

I think this is a very good point to bear in mind but is, as many things, a two way street. Players should not just assume because a developer is overheard saying something over lunch on a weekend miles away from the office that they are going to implement it 24 hours later. That’s just silly. However, I don’t really see it as being that out of line for a player to expect something stated in an official info release about the game to actually end up in the game. And this is even more so when what ends up in the game directly contradicts a previous official statement.

Players are not developers and, in many cases, that’s probably a good thing. But developers are definitely fallible and should be willing/able to discuss their decisions and plans. They should be able to admit when they’ve made a mistake or can’t come through on a proposal. Put simply, it’s a lot harder for even the least mature player to call someone a liar when they come straight out and say “Oops, I goofed.” This is the sort of interaction that won you, Mr. Foreman, a lot of love and respect following the SAB W2 release even amongst those who weren’t fans of the content.

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Posted by: Phoebe Ascension.8437

Phoebe Ascension.8437

I respect Josh post a lot, but i read a hidden message in there. (in all the warnings, we want to but can’t because X).

NcSoft/Anet doesn’t hire enough people to actually make a 3 million copy sold MMO, future proof, and keeping true to it’s first made promises. I think that’s the issue. This would explain why both devs/players are kitten ed at each other.

Devs viewpoint: We wan’t to make it happen but don’t have the resources/have bad luck with some part of the code that doesn’t want to debuf/realize it’s harder to make then was thought earlier.

Player viewpoint: Statement are statements, you keep them true, or you lie. Otherwise don’t make statements. This is both true and not true at same time. If a politician promises something and it won’t come true, he will be punished for it. Simple. Is this punishment justified? Who will tell, no clear answer to that. Maybe he worked hard, maybe he didn’t work hard enough. But the word ‘promise’ is very important for humans. It creates… Expectations. Expectations becomes dreams. Dreams become Utopia, and then it falls apart. And the feeling left then is very horrible. And they need somebody to be angry at. They want to focus their ‘angry’ emotion at someone. Sadly that is often you devs.

Who is wrong here? Nobody and yet both sides can make improvements. My take on it? here goes.

Players should always be friendly to devs no matter what. (angry is not equal to unfriendly). A happy dev (reading ‘respectfull’ forum posts) will be more motivated to work on the game, then someone who just got flamed. This is a fact, although some people claim/act like they can handle if well.

Players should also keep on trying to contribute even if they feel like being ‘not heard’. Who knows, suddenly a player might have a simple, but golden solution that slipped tru Arenanets ‘net’ of brainstorming, and was all they needed to move the game forward.

With this said: devs can definitely improve on the following.

Stop being stubborn. Seriously. I know making an mmo is very challenging. And that at some point you are tired of changing directions and want to make a decision, you make it and then you feel ‘safe’. Like ok it’s this and i won’t have to change my focus, wich means easier developping for me. I would make this mistake too. However it prevents mistakes from being fixed. You (devs) made mistakes. Am i angry? no. Is it wrong to make mistakes? ABSOLUTELY NOT. It is a mistake however to not admit them and look past them. Pvp is a best example imo. Some nerf were uncalled for and now proven to be to drastic. Pvp changes are always numerous so i suspect code wise they aren’t a challenge to change. So imo very simple, show you can fix mistakes, by fixing nerfs that should not have happened. There’s plenty. (read my post in Jonathan sharp preview topic for more info).

Devs should listen more to players. It kitten es me slightly off that the argument is here again ‘forum players stop acting like you are everyone, you aren’t’. It’s partially true and it isn’t an insult. So technically you didn’t do something wrong. But here it comes. People will feel insulted by it (weither justified or not). They will feel meaningless/ignored on the forums. To be honest. I played over 80 parties (x4 players i didn’t know before), aetherblade path, Twilight arbor. All those ppl had same conclusion, the ‘ooze’ pulling part in that dungeon stinks. So technically about 250 people rounded down told me they hate it (as do I). If i tell you on the forums now that this is a broad topic, (and you won’t take my word for it), then you are wrong.

Players that wan’t the game to grow and take so much effort to even make wall of (sincere) text on the forums of idea’s, those players aren’t stupid. They aren’t completely selfish. Their idea’s will most of the time be a combined conclusion of many ingame chats/player conversations/frustrations. If you think every player post here with the pure ‘selfish, me me me,’ way of thinking, that’s a terrible mistake Josh. And it’s the mistake at the base for the reason why people think they are ignored on the forums. So please improve in this. I know perfection doesn’t exist. And it can’t exist. But please strife to it. That’s why i ask both sides to do this.

8x different lvl 80 profession.

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Posted by: Cassius.4831

Cassius.4831

Josh, I appreciate your job in GW2, at least the things I know you have designed (SAB, tower clock), that’s why I’m logging in order to reply your post.

I agree with you in almost every point: Programming something like this game isn’t easy, a very good coordination is needed for working and, obviously, we cannot complain about lack of content because there’s a lot.

But

4. Please stop calling us liars when we fail to implement something we intended to months ago, but for some technical, balance, or other reason found it to be untenable.

Some of us bought this game because we were promised that there would be horizontal progression. That “once we got max level, we would have max gear and we would be only playing for visual rewards and fun”.

But ANET implemented the ascended items, and shattered the manifesto into dust.

That wasn’t a failed implementation, it was something that some of us didn’t expected and got. Something that perhaps some people were looking for, but that was clearly against the original concept which some of us believed in.

Some of us aren’t moaning because we feel “the real players” are us, but because we feel cheated. And that’s why I don’t trust in most of the dev team members, because some things are being implemented although there are a lot of posts with a “star thumb” against it, remembering the original idea of GW2, and they have been systematically ignored all this time.

On the other hand, it isn’t easy for all of us to develop our thoughts because our english isn’t native. That’s why sometimes we cannot write everything we want in the way we feel.

I would like to play to this game a bit more (I’m not sure how much I’ve played, but since I was near 10k AP, I think that was more than 1k hours), but a couple of days ago I uninstalled it after leaving to play 3 weeks before, because of the frustration I felt with the new ascended weapons.

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“Guild wars is for everybody, freedom is ascended, zerg is strength”
~ G. Orrwell, great shaman of the new flame legion, 1984 AE.

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Posted by: Xcom.1926

Xcom.1926

Chris starts up topics on how to improve things, Josh posts all the reasons why it can’t/won’t be done. Sounds like more of the same Anet double speak we’re used to. One side says, “We’ll never do that….” 2 months later, “Get used to it. It’s happening.”

There is ALWAYS a reason something can’t be done. Easy to find reasons; staff, complexity, talent, time, etc….. Time to start finding solutions instead of excuses

I agree with Josh’s rules, but eventually players will want to see solutions to said issues. I personally understand you guys are hard working, love what you are doing, love the game and want to make it the best it possibly can be, I also understand that sometimes what you say can’t be done.

However, points 2, 3, 4 & 5 sound like excuses as to why things are not done on time, why “promises” are not met and why there is a perceived lack of direction to this game. They are all valid reasons, but unfortunately, to be totally blunt as you can see on these forums, players want to see solutions.

At the end of the day, regardless of the forums or not. Regardless of communication or not, the proof is in the pudding, results need to be seen in game. And solutions to problem either real or perceived also need to be seen in game.

(edited by Xcom.1926)

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Posted by: FacesOfMu.3561

FacesOfMu.3561

Interesting PR statement Josh….

I’m very skeptical of this entire effort going on. A lot of players are. Could be legit, could be just another PR/Marketing tactic after noticing declining numbers. The general response/tone of communication for the last year has been questionable. Primary focus on $$$ driven initiatives, bug fixes be kitten ed.

Your post simply seems to go along quite well with the new “Collaborative Development” going on. Chris starts up topics on how to improve things, Josh posts all the reasons why it can’t/won’t be done. Sounds like more of the same Anet double speak we’re used to. One side says, “We’ll never do that….” 2 months later, “Get used to it. It’s happening.”

See Manifesto.
See Ascended Gear.
See LFG.
See PvP.
See every other broken area of the game.

There is ALWAYS a reason something can’t be done. Easy to find reasons; staff, complexity, talent, time, etc….. Time to start finding solutions instead of excuses.

This is what is very likely to occur in almost all the new threads.
Request Made. What about X content? Will it get fixed/new/etc.?
Answer given:
No = Kitten No!
Maybe Later = See No.
Yes = 90% chance of No. Expect results in 2 – 5 years.

G’day Egon, I just wanted to say I can understand your caution and skepticism for this. By the looks of things, this new Collaborative Development stuff is going to take time for trust to grow between us and Arena Net.
By the sounds of your post, I would guess that you are almost feeling Hopeless about improvements, would that be right?
What is it that helps keep you going in the forums or game? What keeps you tied in and still going?
I personally don’t play much anymore, but I revisit the forums to keep an eye on the major changes and to see if I am re-inspired to play. This new discussion method has hooked me a little, especially if I read other posters who are saying what I feel (and usually are better at it!). I think I’d call myself ’Skeptical and Wanting to Encourage It".
What still gives you the slivers of hope to keep participating?

People vary.

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Posted by: diamondgirl.6315

diamondgirl.6315

What DOES keep all the angry peeps playing? I am asking seriously. What makes you log in to this game instead of one of our million other choices? Let’s find that and make more.

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Posted by: EnemyCrusher.7324

EnemyCrusher.7324

What DOES keep all the angry peeps playing? I am asking seriously. What makes you log in to this game instead of one of our million other choices? Let’s find that and make more.

My guess is that most of them are just whiners who will whine about any game they play. At least GW2 gives them someone to whine to.

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Posted by: DoctorOverlord.8620

DoctorOverlord.8620

Would a topic on the UI need a place? I was thinking about subjects like build-loading or ability bar schemes that might be of interest.

Good point. We could discuss global topics such as bugs and UI on separate threads once we get our collaborative process down after we have tried 1 round of PVE, WvW and PVP threads?

That sounds like a decent plan.

‘Global’ is good heading for general issues that affect PvE, WvW and PvP like bugs, UI, graphics and such.

An MMO is an incredibly complex web of interdependencies, and tweaking any individual part runs the risk of breaking many other parts.

Good points to bring up esp. this one. People seem forget how fixing a bug in the mail system could end up screwing up PvE loot drops or visa versa. MMOs are big, complex, computer programs and anyone who has done any programming will know how unexpected interactions can result in problems.

No one wants to ‘slap you in the face’ or make the game less fun. We love you guys, and are thrilled that people play our game!

I try to remind myself this every single time I see a karka go from zero hit points to full health or when I get spam cc-ed running across Orr or Southsun to the point I miss out on event I’m trying to reach.

It would be silly to think that you wouldn’t want players to enjoy your game, it’s just that on some (thankfully) rare occasions there are times when as a player it’s hard not think you’re hearing mocking cackling in the background.

I hope this new interaction will decrease those occasions in GW2 from being blessedly rare to being non-existent.

Check my GW2 Comic Dynamic Events http://goo.gl/JyB3J (Short Google Link to Fan Content Forum here)

(edited by DoctorOverlord.8620)

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Posted by: Mif.3471

Mif.3471

What DOES keep all the angry peeps playing? I am asking seriously. What makes you log in to this game instead of one of our million other choices? Let’s find that and make more.

Angry complainers mean the game is healthy. It shows people care about the game.

When they stop complaining, that’s when a game is in trouble, because it means they’ve stopped caring.

Tarnished Coast | Best cookies in all of Tyria

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Posted by: diamondgirl.6315

diamondgirl.6315

What DOES keep all the angry peeps playing? I am asking seriously. What makes you log in to this game instead of one of our million other choices? Let’s find that and make more.

Angry complainers mean the game is healthy. It shows people care about the game.

When they stop complaining, that’s when a game is in trouble, because it means they’ve stopped caring.

I get that. That’s why I am in GW2, for example, and not SWTOR, which finally tipped too far toward money grabbing for my taste. Or WoW, which lost me with the skill revamp that came with the Pandas.

My question is completely literal; what things, what little plusses, what wonderful moments, are what keep the angry people from tipping over to the wrong side of the passionate/apathetic line?

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Posted by: Phoebe Ascension.8437

Phoebe Ascension.8437

What DOES keep all the angry peeps playing? I am asking seriously. What makes you log in to this game instead of one of our million other choices? Let’s find that and make more.

The core of the game is better then any other mmo around. There I said it. However there are lingering issues, that frustrate. At first you can ignore them but after playing so long the only way of dealing with them is not playing the game or ‘whining’ (i rather use the word ‘feedback’) to get the stuff fixed.

Like simple thing: Warrior is good in wvw, pvp (since lately) and pve. If you like warrior playstyle you will never be bored. I however don’t like warrior playstyle (in any game). I tried it in gw2, (cause warrior is a viable main, to have a one, do it all in one package profession), but it wasn’t for me. Same for guardian although that profession is closer to my playstyle. All the other professions have at least one part however where they are serious lacking. If anet fixes this, then in for the game no matter what other mistakes they make. There’s other things why i keep playing/keep posting feedback on forums, but this is an example.

8x different lvl 80 profession.

(edited by Phoebe Ascension.8437)

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Posted by: Nova Stiker.8396

Nova Stiker.8396

“Anger and frustration is a form a caring. Complaining is another way of saying what bothers the player. No one complains or gets angry at something they don’t care about.”

You should never be afraid to comment to other people, remember, negative feedback is a good sign and don’t let it get to you.


The biggest problem, ArenaNet does not feel human.

You only appear to only address topics that concern the game and make decisions without any sort of justification. SPEAK UP! Don’t be afraid to chatter or share your opinions, make the players believe you have opinions.
You know how awesome it would be for an employee to say, “I don’t like this because of X, Y and Z. It’s a lot of effort because of W and I don’t think it is worth it.”
or maybe.
“We’re not changing W because of X and Y. Sorry but we believe having Z here is not an issue.”

It’s easy to get angry and frustrated at a machine.

This words of wisdom was brought to you by Elemental Atmos.
Elemental Atmos, “buy gems, trade for gold, make it cheaper for me to buy Black Lion Keys. MONEY MONEY MONEY, NEED MOOOOORE.”

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