Condi dmg is 65%-76% less DPS vs bosses

Condi dmg is 65%-76% less DPS vs bosses

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Posted by: Jason Segel.2908

Jason Segel.2908

Not VERY long, and this is just analyzed for PVE bosses and champions/dynamic event bosses or whatever.

Why is there a bleed stack limit in PVE?

There actually isn’t a reason. Arenanet has actually never said why, they have also never said why poison and burning do not stack in intensity.

Here is the issue with only having 25 for max bleeding stacks and not having poison and burn stack.

Take a fully specced DPS class, any DPS class that relies on power + crit + crit damage and just deals direct damage. Level 80 in PVE they can easily be dealing 2,000-5,000 DPS depending on their build and how many stacks of might they have and how much vulnerability the boss has.

Take a full condition class, any kind, with highest condi damage, highest power, and highest crit chance(which is basically the only viable build for how stats on gear are set-up). Stacking conditions they can maybe keep up 7 to 14 stacks of bleeding, a poison and possibly deal 500-1000 DPS. Now if you add up the DPS for the bleeding, poison, and direct DPS, assuming at 7 to 14 stacks of bleeding and poison, its probably about 500-1000 direct DPS + 200 ish poison DPS + 700 – 1900 bleeding DPS = 1400 – 3100 DPS.

Compared to the direct damage it’s not that far off, and when you take in the fact it can reduce direct damage since it’s a boss this is basically on par for DPS with direct damage. The issue is, when you have more than 3 or 4 people. That your conditions become completely watered down because of max stack. So that 700-1900 DPS on bleeding can become almost 0.

In fights of 20-50 people I have sometimes only had 1 or 2 ticks of bleeding visually ticking and most of the time I had 0 stacks. Therefore direct DPS remains the same of 2,000-5,000. While condition damage takes a huge hit going from 1400 – 3100 DPS.
to 700- 1200 DPS. See the issue now Arena net? IF there was no max bleeding stacks this wouldn’t be an issue at all.

But it is an issue, and you need to get rid of max stacks for conditions, make the bosses have more health and let us condi builds feel like we are actually worth having around. It is not fun playing a full condi + power + crit necro and having to spec for being a double dagger build once you realize your conditions deal 65% – 76% less DPS than a direct build.

SOME MORE MATH, UPDATED.

Why make 10 direct damage do 2000-5000 per person, and 10 condi classes dealing 700-1400 per person?

10 minute fight of 10 direct damage specs = 10 * 10 * 60* 2000 to 5000 = 12,000,000 damage to 30,000,000 damage over 10 minute period.

10 minute fight with condi users being capped at bleeding stacks and all that = 10 * 10 * 60 *700 to 1400 = 4,200,000 to * 8,400,000

Meaning it would take 30 condi users to deal the same amount of damage as 10 direct damger dealers…

  • NOTE****

The above for the comparing the 10 minute fight assumes all the normal rules, and the classes being fully specced for direct damage, and condi being specced for full condi damage. The way I set the numbers up was basically the direct damage the condi users were doing thus ariving at the 700-1400 dps, which in actuality would be a ton lower because you have to take out the poison dps as only one persons poison will hit, so in reality it’s basically 400-700 DPS specced as full condition because basically only your direct damage is hitting, which can hit for small amounts. So the problem is even worse than my above calculation.
How does that make any sense…

That is insane, how can you allow condi users to be shoved to the back of the bus and have us deal 65%-76% less DPS, the only reasonable thing to do now is add more health to bosses to compensate for the extra damage conditions will now be doing, and take away the limit on bleed stacks on bosses. Or even possibly bump it up to 50 or 75 stacks? or possibly make poison/burning stack? that would go a long way in making us condi builds happy.

(edited by Jason Segel.2908)

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Posted by: Sion.1653

Sion.1653

Totally agree. Not much else left to say – nice post. I doubt we’ll see this anytime soon, if ever, sadly.

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Posted by: Krael.3476

Krael.3476

one of the things I hope we see fixed, I just don’t see the reasoning behind this, it really forces you to a playstyle in order to be fully effective in pve.

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Posted by: mulch.2586

mulch.2586

The moral of the story is good players don’t condition-build.

Was the same way before launch.

Go ahead and make one. Play a Mantra Mesmer. Play a Signet Ranger. For most of the game, you’ll be fine, cuz the game’s just not that dependent on dps. Your choice.

But it’s absurd to complain about your choice. Cuz you’re the one wot made it.

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Posted by: dandamanno.4136

dandamanno.4136

Agree here also. Don’t really understand the reasoning behind it.

If you take any group with direct damage they scale perfectly linearly. A group with condition damage scale linearly until they hit 25 stacks of something, then they flatline.

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Posted by: Dee Jay.2460

Dee Jay.2460

That’s why I never wanted to play a Condition Build in PvE. Not only is your DPS subar but you also have a hard time “tagging” mobs during events.

However I don’t think Dynamic Event encounters should really be used as a benchmark for Condition Damage performance. Dungeons encounters should however and I expect the differences there are less extreme than the OP implies.

Dots have one advantage over DD in that they still deal damage when the target is not currently selected.

I’d like to see a comparison between Condition Damage and Direct Damage in an encounter that only allows for 80% Direct Damage uptime and isn’t limited by the Bleed Stack limit.

That said, the Bleed limit needs to go, no question about it.

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Posted by: Darxio.5672

Darxio.5672

One person in the party specializing in conditions is great!

But more than one specialized condition build and it doesn’t add much.

25 stacks of bleed is fine for the 5-man party, imo. It gets awkward when world events come into play. That in itself is a whole different discussion though.

Brigade of the Black Twilight [BBT]
Darxio – Thief Commander

(edited by Darxio.5672)

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

I agree with the OP. I think conditions should do MORE damage than direct damage, especially since they haven’t even fixed them doing damage to objects. They also need to fix confusion damage… right now confusion damage sucks.

As a Mesmer, I have a huge problem when it comes to how Confusion is handled in PvE.
A “conditionary-condition” is just bad in a game-system where players are encouraged to dodge and move out of harm from potential incoming damage.

Pathing, windup, and ‘monster-skills’ which don’t even proc confusion result in a baseline lack-luster playing field for confusion. Every phantasm and trait tied to the mechanic is usually on a long cool-down, low stacks, and very prone to miss-fire (out-of range scepter channel or interrupted channel sceptre, dead iMage, etc).

If someone finds a boss where Confusion is particularly decent, then maybe that would be some noteworthy information to share. Mobs generally switch targets, move, chase people, “wind up” attacks. Confusion’s damage varies greatly with enemy behaviour and it generally makes this specific condition a joke in a PvE environment.

Another thing that worries me… the developers have already said they were looking into how condition damage is handled when it comes to the “killing” of objects… while I’m happy about that, I’m curious how that would work with the current PvE version of confusion since objects don’t activate abilities.

All in all, I think Conditions and especially Confusion needs to be reworked for PvE AND PvP… since trebuchet’s need to be killed as well and they are objects.

10 + (1.5 * Level) + (0.15 * Condition Damage) per stack per skill use.

In sPvP, its damage is half as much, or:

65 + (0.075 * Condition Damage) per stack per skill use.

The problem is that changing the coefficients is not enough to make it viable in PvE. And Mesmers are also concerned about how it will work against objects when they administer the changes for conditions to “kill” objects since objects can’t activate abilities.

If you’re saying we should “forget” about confusion in PvE, then that would render Scepter/Torch a PvP only weapon. And we would be the only class in the game with an entire weaponset pigeon-holed to PvP only. I feel like that would be grossly unacceptable.

I think overall, PvE condition damage should be a lot more than direct damage.

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Posted by: dandamanno.4136

dandamanno.4136

But it’s absurd to complain about your choice. Cuz you’re the one wot made it.

I think it’s absurd to tell someone that they shouldn’t voice their concerns on the games forums, since that is what they are here for…

The complaint is not about the choice, but the lack of choice since half the builds in the game are far less viable than others.

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Posted by: mulch.2586

mulch.2586

I agree with the OP. I think conditions should do MORE damage than direct damage, especially since they haven’t even fixed them doing damage to objects. They also need to fix confusion damage… right now confusion damage sucks.

As a Mesmer, I have a huge problem when it comes to how Confusion is handled in PvE.

Confusion is a lethal player-killer.

I get that people are sad their skills only work for parts of the game. But that’s true about a lot of things. It feels like you’re complaining that your screwdriver doesn’t pound nails right. Ok, but it’s an awesome screwdriver, use it for that.

It’s like me complaining that my guardian’s staff doesn’t have any range. Well, it’s not a ranged weapon. Could it have been? Yes, but not in GW2.

Any build/playstyle in GW2, think about it like something in your toolbox. What job do you want to do? Which tool is right for the job?

There’s only one burn on any target. It can’t be an object. Does that limit my guardian? Yes, unavoidably, because burn is central to guardians.

There’s only one poison. There’s only 25 bleeds. Those are the rules. Learn how to play with them.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

I agree with the OP. I think conditions should do MORE damage than direct damage, especially since they haven’t even fixed them doing damage to objects. They also need to fix confusion damage… right now confusion damage sucks.

As a Mesmer, I have a huge problem when it comes to how Confusion is handled in PvE.

Confusion is a lethal player-killer.

I get that people are sad their skills only work for parts of the game. But that’s true about a lot of things. It feels like you’re complaining that your screwdriver doesn’t pound nails right. Ok, but it’s an awesome screwdriver, use it for that.

It’s like me complaining that my guardian’s staff doesn’t have any range. Well, it’s not a ranged weapon. Could it have been? Yes, but not in GW2.

Any build/playstyle in GW2, think about it like something in your toolbox. What job do you want to do? Which tool is right for the job?

There’s only one burn on any target. It can’t be an object. Does that limit my guardian? Yes, unavoidably, because burn is central to guardians.

There’s only one poison. There’s only 25 bleeds. Those are the rules. Learn how to play with them.

I’m not sure if you play high end spvp extensively… but condition builds don’t do very well. That is a fact. So saying that Confusion is a “lethal player killer” is a bit laughable when placing it in a competitive arena. Control and high burst damage is the name of the game.

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Posted by: Leiloni.7951

Leiloni.7951

Well as much as I agree with you it would be fun for it to have unlimited bleed stacks, there’s not much skill involved in that. Just to play devil’s advocate here, they probably do have reasons for it.

In a game that’s supposed to be about skilled combat, DoTs tick automatically – you can be dodging a dungeon boss and still doing damage, or in sPvP with tons of stacks on a guy and just run around healing and avoiding his hits while he dies. Automatic damage doesn’t fit into a game with no healers where everyone is supposed to be able to avoid damage with skillful use of skills and dodges.

As for burning, if they let burning stack in intensity us Ele’s would do way OP damage, and put us in a group and we’d make them do even more way OP damage. I have a fire field that lasts for 4 seconds on a 6 second cooldown – you do the math.

(edited by Leiloni.7951)

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Posted by: Panzen.4625

Panzen.4625

Not just that… there is also a slight problem with condition removal.
Condition removal is completely binary. Either it removes everything (or a whole stack) or it doesn’t remove anything.
Probably just a WvW/PvP “problem” though.
It kind of is like the “stealth” problem known from other games like LoL or WoW, if you’re familiar with it. Stealth is/was either 100% effective or 0% effective. Last I heard they changed something about that, though… at least in LoL.

Overall, if there isn’t any or only little condition removal, builds using conditions should deal a little more damage than builds without conditions. Especially in PvE.

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Posted by: tetsuo.7318

tetsuo.7318

The easyest and fairest solution would be to just give every individual player his own stack of Dots.

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Posted by: Blacksarevok.8104

Blacksarevok.8104

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

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Posted by: Yamiino.1827

Yamiino.1827

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

I have tried both builds, and yes this statement is correct some-what, condition damage is great lets say in WvW where people try to hide behind the walls and you can cast an AOE to add condition and keep bleeding/poisoning/burning/etc. from long distance.

Direct damage however does not have such big impact in PVP since people tend to stay protected and direct damage usually does not reach up in the walls (talking about WvW here, since in sPVP you can switch your build without any cost).

Condition damage in PVE is not that bad, however, you have to think that on higher levels mobs will stack, and you have very little time to kill them before they kill you, adding condition and killing them in 14 seconds can mean you’ll die or you won’t get loot (Orr events for example).

Direct damage in PVE is better, since the more damage you deal faster the faster the mob will die, aka the longer you will live and the better loot you will get for dealing high damage.

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Posted by: Jason Segel.2908

Jason Segel.2908

The moral of the story is good players don’t condition-build.

Was the same way before launch.

Go ahead and make one. Play a Mantra Mesmer. Play a Signet Ranger. For most of the game, you’ll be fine, cuz the game’s just not that dependent on dps. Your choice.

But it’s absurd to complain about your choice. Cuz you’re the one wot made it.

The moral of the story is that Arena Net can make changes so direct damage isn’t the only choice. Has nothing to do with being “good”. You can be the best condi person and know exactly how to max out condi damage and all that, but in a boss fight you’re stuck dealing between 65% to 75% less damage than someone specced for direct damage.

Arena Net made this game, they made the mechanics, they can change the mechanics so they are not alienating people who enjoy playing condition builds vs bosses/champions/dynamic events. Conditions are very helpful when its 5 man parties, why program the game to make us almost useless for 10-50 man groups taking down bosses/champions/whatever huge event monster. I don’t see the point in it, therefore it has to be an oversight in logic on their part.

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Posted by: Jason Segel.2908

Jason Segel.2908

The easyest and fairest solution would be to just give every individual player his own stack of Dots.

That could work as well. Other games do that for certain abilities so there isn’t issues with stacking vulnerability past a certain percentage and limiting of certain heals or special moves. Or it makes it so if you cast invulnerability with a certain move that is spammable, it only helps you deal more damage. Many different ways to tackle the issue and I support people like you who actually think about things, thank you!

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Posted by: Jason Segel.2908

Jason Segel.2908

Well as much as I agree with you it would be fun for it to have unlimited bleed stacks, there’s not much skill involved in that. Just to play devil’s advocate here, they probably do have reasons for it.

In a game that’s supposed to be about skilled combat, DoTs tick automatically – you can be dodging a dungeon boss and still doing damage, or in sPvP with tons of stacks on a guy and just run around healing and avoiding his hits while he dies. Automatic damage doesn’t fit into a game with no healers where everyone is supposed to be able to avoid damage with skillful use of skills and dodges.

As for burning, if they let burning stack in intensity us Ele’s would do way OP damage, and put us in a group and we’d make them do even more way OP damage. I have a fire field that lasts for 4 seconds on a 6 second cooldown – you do the math.

They could easily put in special restrictions on bosses. That’s all I am advocating for. Boss battles can take up to 15 minutes or whatever their timer is, and for the 10 condi specced people there, we don’t want to respec and pay 4 silver everytime and switch to completely different set of armor just to fight a boss…

Why is direct damage allowed to deal 2000-5000 DPS but condi is penalized and is restricted to 700-1400 DPS or whatever. The point is, this makes people who want to play condi builds and like condi builds want to quit the game, or not help fight big bosses. Condi should be the best against bosses because their toughness doesn’t matter as conditions do not get reduced by toughness for how much DPS they do. Therefore it doesn’t make much sense to make conditions have a limit. They can easily make it so you can’t burn for X number of seconds after you apply a burn, or the second stack of burn you applies add in an extra 10% or 20% to the burn already on there. Upping the time limit on burns and poison which ticks for like 200 per second, over a 10 minute fight = 10 * 60 * 200 = 120,000 damage for being poisoned for 10 minutes. If poison stacked it could be easily 500,000 damage instead. See the huge difference?

Why make 10 direct damage do 2000-5000 per person, and 10 condi classes dealing 700-1400 per person?

10 minute fight of 10 direct damage specs = 10 * 10 * 60* 2000 to 5000 = 12,000,000 damage to 30,000,000 damage over 10 minute period.

10 minute fight with condi users being capped at bleeding stacks and all that = 10 * 10 * 60 *700 to 1400 = 4,200,000 to * 8,400,000

Meaning it would take 30 condi users to deal the same amount of damage as 10 direct damger dealers…

How does that make any sense…

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Posted by: Haette.2701

Haette.2701

Well as much as I agree with you it would be fun for it to have unlimited bleed stacks, there’s not much skill involved in that. Just to play devil’s advocate here, they probably do have reasons for it.

In a game that’s supposed to be about skilled combat, DoTs tick automatically – you can be dodging a dungeon boss and still doing damage, or in sPvP with tons of stacks on a guy and just run around healing and avoiding his hits while he dies. Automatic damage doesn’t fit into a game with no healers where everyone is supposed to be able to avoid damage with skillful use of skills and dodges.

Are you serious?

How is stacking all your bleeds alongside everyone else’s full bleed stacks any different from everyone dealing full damage with their direct attacks? A condition-based build loses just as much DPS to dodging as a direct-damage build with a similar range, the fact that it’s DoT damage doesn’t mitigate that AT ALL.

There’s no more skill involved in whapping at something with direct damage than there is in slapping something with a condition, except with conditions you then have to wait however long to get the full effect out of it. Not to mention you can dodge, heal, AND cleanse condition damage, but direct damage can only be dodged or healed.

Right there, that’s two inherent extra risks to using condition damage, with the only notable benefit (increased damage) quickly destroyed by stack limits and crappy condition damage in general.

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Posted by: Duke Blackrose.4981

Duke Blackrose.4981

The moral of the story is good players don’t condition-build.

Was the same way before launch.

Go ahead and make one. Play a Mantra Mesmer. Play a Signet Ranger. For most of the game, you’ll be fine, cuz the game’s just not that dependent on dps. Your choice.

But it’s absurd to complain about your choice. Cuz you’re the one wot made it.

It’s absurd to complain that an entire build archetype is unviable?

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Posted by: BurnedToast.3781

BurnedToast.3781

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

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Posted by: Jason Segel.2908

Jason Segel.2908

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Then why aren’t Necromancers dominating high level spvp?

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Posted by: Budchgon.2108

Budchgon.2108

I have a condition bleed thief and while it’s fun to play, it looses out in boss fights due to the bleed stacks …

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Posted by: Jason Segel.2908

Jason Segel.2908

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Then why aren’t Necromancers dominating high level spvp?

Most necromancers dont play their strengths. A necro paired with a guardian at a point is amazing.

I can do 3 complete condition removals on myself + all allies in the area. I can grant 12 seconds of protection on all allies, regen on all allies, convert allies conditions into boons, rez 3 downed allies while i channel the move that does that while moving which is the best rez in the game, i cause all enemies incoming hits to hit 50% less for all non-critical hits by casting enfeeble blood which lasts for 10 seconds and I can recast every 10 seconds…. Necromancers are for sure in high level pvp, they are in free tpvp and paid tpvp for sure.

I don’t know how it is on your server but the smart teams have a necro because of all the utility we have.

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Posted by: Polaritie.4851

Polaritie.4851

The moral of the story is good players don’t condition-build.

Was the same way before launch.

Go ahead and make one. Play a Mantra Mesmer. Play a Signet Ranger. For most of the game, you’ll be fine, cuz the game’s just not that dependent on dps. Your choice.

But it’s absurd to complain about your choice. Cuz you’re the one wot made it.

Signet ranger with or without the trait that applies signet actives to you as well?

More on topic – yes, condition damage is very bad in world events. In a small group or solo it’s fine (if you hit max bleeds solo… well, why didn’t it already die?). In WvW, there’s a ton of condition removal, yes… (And not nearly enough boon stripping in people’s builds – I hate seeing Guardians with 7+ boons)

(edited by Polaritie.4851)

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Posted by: Surbrus.6942

Surbrus.6942

It is fairly annoying to have max stacks of conditions when making your party. When partying up for PvE stuff, depending on which guildies are in the party, I have to either switch builds or even swap characters because of too many condition/bleed builds, whereas if everyone was direct damage we would not be stepping on each other’s toes.

Under optimal circumstances I can put up about 20 bleeds alone. When partied up with even one more condition/bleed character, we are reducing each other’s damage output… and it just so happens that people who I party with a lot, as a whole, like bleed/condition damage.

Sure it might not be optimal to have such a heavy leaning to condition damage even if there was no max stacks, but it still hampers us greatly, and results in many toe stepping.

Maybe at least just increase the number of stacks of bleeding that a boss can have? Besides, most bosses have stupidly high amounts of HP anyways… being able to kill them faster (and balancing that by making them more dangerous) would make for more exciting combats.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Then why aren’t Necromancers dominating high level spvp?

Most necromancers dont play their strengths. A necro paired with a guardian at a point is amazing.

I can do 3 complete condition removals on myself + all allies in the area. I can grant 12 seconds of protection on all allies, regen on all allies, convert allies conditions into boons, rez 3 downed allies while i channel the move that does that while moving which is the best rez in the game, i cause all enemies incoming hits to hit 50% less for all non-critical hits by casting enfeeble blood which lasts for 10 seconds and I can recast every 10 seconds…. Necromancers are for sure in high level pvp, they are in free tpvp and paid tpvp for sure.

I don’t know how it is on your server but the smart teams have a necro because of all the utility we have.

Support Necro yes, condition damage Necro, no… which was the whole basis of this thread. Condition Damage.

Condi dmg is 65%-76% less DPS vs bosses

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Jason Segel.2908

Jason Segel.2908

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Then why aren’t Necromancers dominating high level spvp?

Most necromancers dont play their strengths. A necro paired with a guardian at a point is amazing.

I can do 3 complete condition removals on myself + all allies in the area. I can grant 12 seconds of protection on all allies, regen on all allies, convert allies conditions into boons, rez 3 downed allies while i channel the move that does that while moving which is the best rez in the game, i cause all enemies incoming hits to hit 50% less for all non-critical hits by casting enfeeble blood which lasts for 10 seconds and I can recast every 10 seconds…. Necromancers are for sure in high level pvp, they are in free tpvp and paid tpvp for sure.

I don’t know how it is on your server but the smart teams have a necro because of all the utility we have.

Support Necro yes, condition damage Necro, no… which was the whole basis of this thread. Condition Damage.

Support necro is the same thing as condi necro….
I am support necro for my utilities, slots 6 7 8 9, slot 4 on staff. i am max condi damage and i still provide support. u just gotta know how to trait it, what runes to use. you’re a thief and i see you post about thieves all the time. please don’t tell me what a necro is good for. i win ia lot of paid tournaments and free tpvp with my friends.

Condi dmg is 65%-76% less DPS vs bosses

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Then why aren’t Necromancers dominating high level spvp?

Most necromancers dont play their strengths. A necro paired with a guardian at a point is amazing.

I can do 3 complete condition removals on myself + all allies in the area. I can grant 12 seconds of protection on all allies, regen on all allies, convert allies conditions into boons, rez 3 downed allies while i channel the move that does that while moving which is the best rez in the game, i cause all enemies incoming hits to hit 50% less for all non-critical hits by casting enfeeble blood which lasts for 10 seconds and I can recast every 10 seconds…. Necromancers are for sure in high level pvp, they are in free tpvp and paid tpvp for sure.

I don’t know how it is on your server but the smart teams have a necro because of all the utility we have.

Support Necro yes, condition damage Necro, no… which was the whole basis of this thread. Condition Damage.

Support necro is the same thing as condi necro….
I am support necro for my utilities, slots 6 7 8 9, slot 4 on staff. i am max condi damage and i still provide support. u just gotta know how to trait it, what runes to use. you’re a thief and i see you post about thieves all the time. please don’t tell me what a necro is good for. i win ia lot of paid tournaments and free tpvp with my friends.

I’m not a Thief.

Condi dmg is 65%-76% less DPS vs bosses

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Jason Segel.2908

Jason Segel.2908

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Then why aren’t Necromancers dominating high level spvp?

Most necromancers dont play their strengths. A necro paired with a guardian at a point is amazing.

I can do 3 complete condition removals on myself + all allies in the area. I can grant 12 seconds of protection on all allies, regen on all allies, convert allies conditions into boons, rez 3 downed allies while i channel the move that does that while moving which is the best rez in the game, i cause all enemies incoming hits to hit 50% less for all non-critical hits by casting enfeeble blood which lasts for 10 seconds and I can recast every 10 seconds…. Necromancers are for sure in high level pvp, they are in free tpvp and paid tpvp for sure.

I don’t know how it is on your server but the smart teams have a necro because of all the utility we have.

Support Necro yes, condition damage Necro, no… which was the whole basis of this thread. Condition Damage.

Support necro is the same thing as condi necro….
I am support necro for my utilities, slots 6 7 8 9, slot 4 on staff. i am max condi damage and i still provide support. u just gotta know how to trait it, what runes to use. you’re a thief and i see you post about thieves all the time. please don’t tell me what a necro is good for. i win ia lot of paid tournaments and free tpvp with my friends.

I’m not a Thief.

Sorry meant to quote sumone else

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Posted by: Distaste.4801

Distaste.4801

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Then why aren’t Necromancers dominating high level spvp?

Most necromancers dont play their strengths. A necro paired with a guardian at a point is amazing.

I can do 3 complete condition removals on myself + all allies in the area. I can grant 12 seconds of protection on all allies, regen on all allies, convert allies conditions into boons, rez 3 downed allies while i channel the move that does that while moving which is the best rez in the game, i cause all enemies incoming hits to hit 50% less for all non-critical hits by casting enfeeble blood which lasts for 10 seconds and I can recast every 10 seconds…. Necromancers are for sure in high level pvp, they are in free tpvp and paid tpvp for sure.

I don’t know how it is on your server but the smart teams have a necro because of all the utility we have.

Support Necro yes, condition damage Necro, no… which was the whole basis of this thread. Condition Damage.

Support necro is the same thing as condi necro….
I am support necro for my utilities, slots 6 7 8 9, slot 4 on staff. i am max condi damage and i still provide support. u just gotta know how to trait it, what runes to use. you’re a thief and i see you post about thieves all the time. please don’t tell me what a necro is good for. i win ia lot of paid tournaments and free tpvp with my friends.

If you’re running utilities in your 7,8,9 slot then you don’t have epidemic. The scepter AOE’s are alright but they are so incredibly easy to avoid and difficult to land. Scepter #1 conditions might kill someone eventually but in the time it takes you to apply 1 set(2 bleed 1 poison) on my thief I’ll have done 3k+ in auto-attack damage myself. I’ll not only have out damaged you(3k vs 2.2k) but I’ll have done it faster(2s vs 7 1/2s). Not only that but again sticking with my thief, any conditions you apply are gone when I hit 75%(trait), then again when I use heal, and if I’m rolling the precision signet that’s another condition gone. Every 45s I can completely remove conditions twice and remove a single condition as well.

Don’t get me wrong, necromancers can do alright, BUT that doesn’t change that condition damage is underpowered compared to direct damage. Condition damage should be doing more overall damage than direct damage because it takes time to do the damage and it can be removed, but it doesn’t. This comes down to crit and crit damage scaling differently. They either need to make condition duration more abundant and remove the cap if there is one or remove crit damage from main gear stats and relegate it to sigils like duration.

Condi dmg is 65%-76% less DPS vs bosses

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Jason Segel.2908

Jason Segel.2908

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Then why aren’t Necromancers dominating high level spvp?

Most necromancers dont play their strengths. A necro paired with a guardian at a point is amazing.

I can do 3 complete condition removals on myself + all allies in the area. I can grant 12 seconds of protection on all allies, regen on all allies, convert allies conditions into boons, rez 3 downed allies while i channel the move that does that while moving which is the best rez in the game, i cause all enemies incoming hits to hit 50% less for all non-critical hits by casting enfeeble blood which lasts for 10 seconds and I can recast every 10 seconds…. Necromancers are for sure in high level pvp, they are in free tpvp and paid tpvp for sure.

I don’t know how it is on your server but the smart teams have a necro because of all the utility we have.

Support Necro yes, condition damage Necro, no… which was the whole basis of this thread. Condition Damage.

Support necro is the same thing as condi necro….
I am support necro for my utilities, slots 6 7 8 9, slot 4 on staff. i am max condi damage and i still provide support. u just gotta know how to trait it, what runes to use. you’re a thief and i see you post about thieves all the time. please don’t tell me what a necro is good for. i win ia lot of paid tournaments and free tpvp with my friends.

If you’re running utilities in your 7,8,9 slot then you don’t have epidemic. The scepter AOE’s are alright but they are so incredibly easy to avoid and difficult to land. Scepter #1 conditions might kill someone eventually but in the time it takes you to apply 1 set(2 bleed 1 poison) on my thief I’ll have done 3k+ in auto-attack damage myself. I’ll not only have out damaged you(3k vs 2.2k) but I’ll have done it faster(2s vs 7 1/2s). Not only that but again sticking with my thief, any conditions you apply are gone when I hit 75%(trait), then again when I use heal, and if I’m rolling the precision signet that’s another condition gone. Every 45s I can completely remove conditions twice and remove a single condition as well.

Don’t get me wrong, necromancers can do alright, BUT that doesn’t change that condition damage is underpowered compared to direct damage. Condition damage should be doing more overall damage than direct damage because it takes time to do the damage and it can be removed, but it doesn’t. This comes down to crit and crit damage scaling differently. They either need to make condition duration more abundant and remove the cap if there is one or remove crit damage from main gear stats and relegate it to sigils like duration.

Just traiting across the curses line in necro you can give yourself 20% bleeding duration + 33% on all conditions caused by scepter duration.

Using epidemic is basically useless for a team fight build. Slot 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9, switch to scepter slot 2 4 5, deahshroud slot 4, is all aoe damage. I am built for tpvp and provide support to the bunker I run in with. Epidemic wouldn’t really add anything because the above already basically means all enemies were hit by my stuff already. It’s better to have 4 wells that give 3 seconds of protection each time, blind enemies for 5 seconds straight pulsing every second, convert all allies conditions into boons, and corrupt enemy boons into conditions(especially when fighting classes that give themselves all boons or 2 to 3 boons that really helps). The combo fields alone are worth it over using blood is power and epidemic because people can get rid of blood is power, so you have a move thats on cooldown for 30 seconds and yeah it helps you but doesnt help your team.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Then why aren’t Necromancers dominating high level spvp?

Most necromancers dont play their strengths. A necro paired with a guardian at a point is amazing.

I can do 3 complete condition removals on myself + all allies in the area. I can grant 12 seconds of protection on all allies, regen on all allies, convert allies conditions into boons, rez 3 downed allies while i channel the move that does that while moving which is the best rez in the game, i cause all enemies incoming hits to hit 50% less for all non-critical hits by casting enfeeble blood which lasts for 10 seconds and I can recast every 10 seconds…. Necromancers are for sure in high level pvp, they are in free tpvp and paid tpvp for sure.

I don’t know how it is on your server but the smart teams have a necro because of all the utility we have.

Support Necro yes, condition damage Necro, no… which was the whole basis of this thread. Condition Damage.

Support necro is the same thing as condi necro….
I am support necro for my utilities, slots 6 7 8 9, slot 4 on staff. i am max condi damage and i still provide support. u just gotta know how to trait it, what runes to use. you’re a thief and i see you post about thieves all the time. please don’t tell me what a necro is good for. i win ia lot of paid tournaments and free tpvp with my friends.

If you’re running utilities in your 7,8,9 slot then you don’t have epidemic. The scepter AOE’s are alright but they are so incredibly easy to avoid and difficult to land. Scepter #1 conditions might kill someone eventually but in the time it takes you to apply 1 set(2 bleed 1 poison) on my thief I’ll have done 3k+ in auto-attack damage myself. I’ll not only have out damaged you(3k vs 2.2k) but I’ll have done it faster(2s vs 7 1/2s). Not only that but again sticking with my thief, any conditions you apply are gone when I hit 75%(trait), then again when I use heal, and if I’m rolling the precision signet that’s another condition gone. Every 45s I can completely remove conditions twice and remove a single condition as well.

Don’t get me wrong, necromancers can do alright, BUT that doesn’t change that condition damage is underpowered compared to direct damage. Condition damage should be doing more overall damage than direct damage because it takes time to do the damage and it can be removed, but it doesn’t. This comes down to crit and crit damage scaling differently. They either need to make condition duration more abundant and remove the cap if there is one or remove crit damage from main gear stats and relegate it to sigils like duration.

Exactly, the thing with condition damage is that in PvE, it’s a lose/lose situation especially since you can’t damage objects.

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Posted by: Minos.5168

Minos.5168

Exactly, the thing with condition damage is that in PvE, it’s a lose/lose situation especially since you can’t damage objects.

And to add insult to injury, a condition ranger’s pet will just stand there while the ranger is attacking the object.

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Posted by: tigirius.9014

tigirius.9014

conds are nerfed beyond belief about a month ago. They were doing this before they actually started coding differently between pve and pvp ability behaviors. That aside it was actually not functioning properly for many of the classes to begin with.

For example, pistols taking just as long to fire as rifles but having half the dps. Bombs/grenades for engineers having a global 1 second before causing damage (travel times/timer before exploding), shotgun for engis doesn’t hardly cause any bleeding for any real amount of time to make it useful. (I dunno about you but if you’re shot point blank with about 100 led pellets I’m sure the wound would be gushing.) Three examples of how it doesn’t function properly that come to mind immediately. This doesn’t just affect the thief and engineer tho, it’s global.

Burning as a condition is the only condition working as intended because it’s not delayed by anything and not nerfed like the others were.

Poison and bleeding need a huge boost and they need to have their limitations taken away.

Cond damage builds should be doing ALOT more in pve otherwise why have it as an option if it’s not going to be fixed. They literally should just take it out of the game if they don’t want to treat it as a viable option for a spec. We’re already being forced to be Prec/Pow/%damage builds on everything. I can’t remember the last time i used a kit on my engineer outside of being underwater for dps.

It’s actually easier to follow the pow/pre setup with pistol and shield or dual pistols because of the way they’ve bottlenecked us into a single viable spec for every class right now.

Doesn’t make any sense.

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Posted by: mulch.2586

mulch.2586

I agree with the OP. I think conditions should do MORE damage than direct damage, especially since they haven’t even fixed them doing damage to objects. They also need to fix confusion damage… right now confusion damage sucks.

As a Mesmer, I have a huge problem when it comes to how Confusion is handled in PvE.

Confusion is a lethal player-killer.

I get that people are sad their skills only work for parts of the game. But that’s true about a lot of things. It feels like you’re complaining that your screwdriver doesn’t pound nails right. Ok, but it’s an awesome screwdriver, use it for that.

It’s like me complaining that my guardian’s staff doesn’t have any range. Well, it’s not a ranged weapon. Could it have been? Yes, but not in GW2.

Any build/playstyle in GW2, think about it like something in your toolbox. What job do you want to do? Which tool is right for the job?

There’s only one burn on any target. It can’t be an object. Does that limit my guardian? Yes, unavoidably, because burn is central to guardians.

There’s only one poison. There’s only 25 bleeds. Those are the rules. Learn how to play with them.

I’m not sure if you play high end spvp extensively… but condition builds don’t do very well. That is a fact. So saying that Confusion is a “lethal player killer” is a bit laughable when placing it in a competitive arena. Control and high burst damage is the name of the game.

I do spvp frequently, but have only done free tournaments.

Being able to remove conditions is essential in pvp, much more so than in the pve world. I mostly play guardian, but I did get 50 wins on my thief. On my thief, if I had confusion on, and did an ability or two without removing it first, I’d end up dead. Do an unload or pistol whip and you’ve just dealt a couple thousand damage to yourself.

Condition builds don’t do well, but condition damage does matter. You get the screen while waitin to rez and can see what hits you took. I have extremely good condition removal, yet I’ll usually have 30+ bleeds showing. Maybe that’s just a function of me being high toughness defensive build with very high protection up-time, it takes a long time to kill me.

Regardless, the thing we as players need to do is take the rules of the game and do the best we can in that context. To the point I almost never play my ranger in spvp, because it’s a bad setting for a ranger (and who, incidentally, is extremely vulnerable to condition damage, sorely lacking effective removal options). My ranger was my first 80, but he’s mostly just my farmer because that’s what he excels at.
Do what you can in the context of the game.

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Posted by: Raine.1394

Raine.1394

Having played many characters in power/crit or condition dmg builds it’s not hard to tell which has the highest sustained dps, and it’s not the condition builds. And, I am considering the dynamics of DOT vs direct damage. But, I’m talking about my perception of sustained damage. We don’t really have much in the way of metrics on this. There’s really no reason for this with a condition build; when I left WoW the Affliction Warlock had the highest sustained dps (there you do have metrics) and it’s damage was largely over time. There is no theoretical reason why condition damage should do less overall damage in a given times span than direct damage.

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Posted by: DanteZero.3569

DanteZero.3569

Basically, condition damage is similar to degeneration in the original GW. There are essentially damage caps and stacking (degen stacked, just not the individual hexes and conditions) which wasn’t great for damage compared to regular skills.

That being said, Anet should take a hard look at healing power and condition damage because the numbers are seemingly meaningless at times (seriously, all conditions use a percentage with the burning being the highest at 25%). There is nothing to indicate to the player how much of a damage increase in conditions the player will see if condition damage was raised.

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Posted by: Dariroch.6482

Dariroch.6482

Condition damage = PVP
Direct damage = PVE

This seems to be how the devs are intending it.

If anything condition damage is worse for PvP for two reasons:

1. Everyone is constantly spamming condition removal.

2. Burst damage is king, you’re over there trying to stack bleeds meanwhile warrior is literally one-shotting people with killshot from 1400 range or thief is exploiting culling to backstab/pistolwhip people to death in 2 – 3 seconds before they can even be targeted.

At least in PvE mobs don’t (usually) cleanse and during dungeons they have enough HP to let you stack up before they die.

They can spam condi removal all they want. Necros dish out all condi with staff, sceptor + off hand dagger build. They can try to remove the conditions but sceptor auto attack loads them up and using epidemic you can transfer one person’s conditions to everyone every 15 ish second? staff condition is all aoe for slot 2 3 4 5 and sceptor + off hand dagger condition is slot 2 and 5 is aoe. gg

Then why aren’t Necromancers dominating high level spvp?

Most necromancers dont play their strengths. A necro paired with a guardian at a point is amazing.

I can do 3 complete condition removals on myself + all allies in the area. I can grant 12 seconds of protection on all allies, regen on all allies, convert allies conditions into boons, rez 3 downed allies while i channel the move that does that while moving which is the best rez in the game, i cause all enemies incoming hits to hit 50% less for all non-critical hits by casting enfeeble blood which lasts for 10 seconds and I can recast every 10 seconds…. Necromancers are for sure in high level pvp, they are in free tpvp and paid tpvp for sure.

I don’t know how it is on your server but the smart teams have a necro because of all the utility we have.

Support Necro yes, condition damage Necro, no… which was the whole basis of this thread. Condition Damage.

Support necro is the same thing as condi necro….
I am support necro for my utilities, slots 6 7 8 9, slot 4 on staff. i am max condi damage and i still provide support. u just gotta know how to trait it, what runes to use. you’re a thief and i see you post about thieves all the time. please don’t tell me what a necro is good for. i win ia lot of paid tournaments and free tpvp with my friends.

If you’re running utilities in your 7,8,9 slot then you don’t have epidemic. The scepter AOE’s are alright but they are so incredibly easy to avoid and difficult to land. Scepter #1 conditions might kill someone eventually but in the time it takes you to apply 1 set(2 bleed 1 poison) on my thief I’ll have done 3k+ in auto-attack damage myself. I’ll not only have out damaged you(3k vs 2.2k) but I’ll have done it faster(2s vs 7 1/2s). Not only that but again sticking with my thief, any conditions you apply are gone when I hit 75%(trait), then again when I use heal, and if I’m rolling the precision signet that’s another condition gone. Every 45s I can completely remove conditions twice and remove a single condition as well.

Don’t get me wrong, necromancers can do alright, BUT that doesn’t change that condition damage is underpowered compared to direct damage. Condition damage should be doing more overall damage than direct damage because it takes time to do the damage and it can be removed, but it doesn’t. This comes down to crit and crit damage scaling differently. They either need to make condition duration more abundant and remove the cap if there is one or remove crit damage from main gear stats and relegate it to sigils like duration.

I agree with this post. Until they allow conditions to crit they will continue to be less effective than power specs.

Bleed cap in pve needs to go.

Conditions need to be able to crit. This alone would make necros rangers and other bleed specs way more viable.

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Posted by: Lopez.7369

Lopez.7369

Like stated in this thread, conditions are actually fine, comparable DPS until the bleed cap. So it’s not condition specs that are the problem; it’s the bleed cap.

What’s funny is this forces people to actually be picky about specs, which is something that is not supposed to happen in this game. Since I’m a condition spec, I can invite maybe one other person specced for conditions. Beyond that, nope. Never taking another.

However, condition builds are absolutely viable in structured PvP. A lot of people run them.

(edited by Lopez.7369)

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

Like stated in this thread, conditions are actually fine, comparable DPS until the bleed cap. So it’s not condition specs that are the problem; it’s the bleed cap.

Are they really though? Thieves with their 9k crits and Warriors doing 29k hundred blades?

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Posted by: BurnedToast.3781

BurnedToast.3781

Like stated in this thread, conditions are actually fine, comparable DPS until the bleed cap. So it’s not condition specs that are the problem; it’s the bleed cap.

What’s funny is this forces people to actually be picky about specs, which is something that is not supposed to happen in this game. Since I’m a condition spec, I can invite maybe one other person specced for conditions. Beyond that, nope. Never taking another.

However, condition builds are absolutely viable in structured PvP. A lot of people run them.

This is simply not true.

First, burning and poison are unique. Poison does bad damage, but burning does good damage – so right there, that’s a huge chunk gone from condition builds since many (most) classes can inflict burning.

But more importantly – if you just take power vs condition damage maybe you are correct (I still think straight power does more but I won’t argue the point and it probably depends on target armor anyway). However, power is multiplied by crit and further multiplied by crit damage while condition has nothing other then condition duration (which is bad for many reasons and only comes on runes anyway). Berserkers gear glass cannon is so much higher dps then anything condition can put out because it has 3 stats all multiplying the effects of each other

Yes, you are squishy with berserkers – but let’s be honest, it hardly matters in solo content and everyone is pretty squishy in group content where 90% of your suvivability is dodging, skill use, and standing in the right place not meatshield/toughness.

Edit: of course berserkers might not be viable in PvP, I don’t really know anything about that. This is for PvE

Condi dmg is 65%-76% less DPS vs bosses

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Posted by: biggs.4702

biggs.4702

The moral of the story is good players don’t condition-build.

Was the same way before launch.

Go ahead and make one. Play a Mantra Mesmer. Play a Signet Ranger. For most of the game, you’ll be fine, cuz the game’s just not that dependent on dps. Your choice.

But it’s absurd to complain about your choice. Cuz you’re the one wot made it.

If the game designers say “this is a viable option” then it had better be. “Just play a different class” or “just play a different style” is a non-answer because it ignores the problem, which stems from game design.

The obstacle is the path.

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Posted by: TerminalMontage.5693

TerminalMontage.5693

Yes! Anet please take notice.

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Posted by: Edge.4180

Edge.4180

I’m not going to suggest that condition builds are balanced as is, but I would be surprised if anyone expects them to be on par with direct damage. Direct damage generally requires you to be constantly attacking your target to deal damage, where as condition damage allows you to continue dealing damage to a target (until the stack times out) even while you’re doing other things (healing, evading, using support/control abilities, alt-tabbing to update your twitter status, whatever). There have to be some drawbacks balancing out that advantage.

Outside of boss-style events where several people can easily cap condition stacks, it generally works very well everywhere else in the game.

(edited by Edge.4180)

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Posted by: BurnedToast.3781

BurnedToast.3781

Advantage? That’s… actually a disadvantage.

Power does all it’s damage up front, condition damage does it over time which gives the target time to heal, cleanse, or just die which means much of your damage just falls off and is wasted.

Condition damage actually needs to be stronger not weaker then power damage to balance out the fact it’s dealt over time.

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Posted by: Edge.4180

Edge.4180

Advantage? That’s… actually a disadvantage.

Power does all it’s damage up front, condition damage does it over time which gives the target time to heal, cleanse, or just die which means much of your damage just falls off and is wasted.

Condition damage actually needs to be stronger not weaker then power damage to balance out the fact it’s dealt over time.

I disagree. Your example of damage being wasted can apply to direct damage as well. If my next attack hits a mob for 2000 damage and it only had 100 health left, 1900 damage from my DD attack was “wasted” according to your example.

Where as when I play my Ranger character (using condition weapons), I can disengage one mob well before it dies and start my attacks on another mob confident that the conditions I left on the first mob will kill it off without any more assistance needed from me. That’s not something you can do with direct damage; there are no fire-and-forget attacks outside of conditions.

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Posted by: BurnedToast.3781

BurnedToast.3781

You’re right that direct damage is wasted too, but the most the can be wasted is 1 hit minus 1 damage (if the mob had one HP left). Condition damage can waste significantly more, especially in groups. How many times do you see a mob die with 10+ bleeds? that’s a considerable amount of damage lost.

Meanwhile, your ranger example makes my point perfectly. Your ranger loads mob #1 up with conditions and switched to mob #2, meanwhile a direct damage char doing the same (or more) dps would already have killed mob #1 since his damage is all frontloaded.

How is it better to have mob #1 still attacking you while you start on mob #2?