Dangerous precedent: Watchwork Pick

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Posted by: Vol.7601

Vol.7601

If you haven’t noticed, a new infinite mining pick has been released which also provides a 20% chance of sprockets.

I have absolutely no problem with infinite tools. They are convenience.

But a chance to get a material that cannot be gathered by other tools? This is P2W.

When scarlet is gone, we more than likely will not be able to get sprockets anymore outside of two sources – the node in your instance and these picks.

It doesn’t matter that sprockets may not have as high value, and that 20% is still low. It sets a dangerous precedent, however, of introducing unique, non-vanity features to future items to generate sales.

Seriously Anet, take this from your no.1 fanboy – this is not cool.

The ‘best’ compromise is to provide older unlimited tools with a similar bonus ore. But personally I would prefer if there were no bonuses at all. Just leave the animation there and sell it for 1000 gems.

edit1: as another mentioned, the other best compromise is to include other temporary picks with the 20% chance, i.e. orichalcum pick with 20% chance at watchwork

(edited by Vol.7601)

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Posted by: Ken DeBoer.9268

Ken DeBoer.9268

I completely agree. I saw this and just shook my head. Dangerously close to P2W. What is next? A harvesting tool that also gets pristine spores?

JQ – The ‘veggie’ Knight
Berserker = Skilled http://i.imgur.com/g1rkIub.jpg
Never forget – http://i.imgur.com/Oxra9sj.jpg

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Posted by: kokiman.2364

kokiman.2364

Welp, that’s over the line, imo. It’s doesn’t sound like a big deal but it is obvious that they are testing how far they can go with the gemstore stuff.

24th person in EU / 30nd worldwide to reach 20,000 achievement points.
Currently bearer of 62 titles (excluding “No Title”).

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Posted by: Nausiation.1469

Nausiation.1469

This is where it starts.

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Posted by: Ren.5842

Ren.5842

Um… yeah… this is, I mean totally terrible…

…. where can I pick one of these up?

Whispers of Ancients – Super happy fun time guild on Desolation
whispersofancients.enjin.com

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Posted by: lordkrall.7241

lordkrall.7241

Indeed, it does feel a bit bad.

I am wondering if it is intended though, seeing as there is no information at all about it in-game as far as I have seen (I haven’t bought it, so might be visible on the item itself, but the store says nothing about it), which makes me think that it might actually be a bug.

Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Aurora Glade

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I’m hoping it’s a bug, because if it’s not it’s definitely verging on P2W and I can’t stand that.

The only exception would be if the stuff you get from it can easily be gotten in game by anyone.

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Posted by: Ken DeBoer.9268

Ken DeBoer.9268

Indeed, it does feel a bit bad.

I am wondering if it is intended though, seeing as there is no information at all about it in-game as far as I have seen (I haven’t bought it, so might be visible on the item itself, but the store says nothing about it), which makes me think that it might actually be a bug.

I can’t see how it is a bug, that seems like it is a programmed option. Now, if the sprockets that drop are in place of gems, then I’m ok with that swap.

JQ – The ‘veggie’ Knight
Berserker = Skilled http://i.imgur.com/g1rkIub.jpg
Never forget – http://i.imgur.com/Oxra9sj.jpg

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

I’m glad to see the concordance on this topic. I have not seen a single defender of this, and that’s a plus. As a person with several unlimited tools, I love these items. But now I certainly feel obligated to buy this in order to stay ahead. I don’t know. It kind of sucks.

My existence in this game is blatantly a bug.
Fashion and Dungeon Mentor of Dungeon Mentors [Noob]

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Posted by: kokiman.2364

kokiman.2364

I’m glad to see the concordance on this topic. I have not seen a single defender of this, and that’s a plus. As a person with several unlimited tools, I love these items. But now I certainly feel obligated to buy this in order to stay ahead. I don’t know. It kind of sucks.

Well you supported the whole “Pay 2 Convinience” thing with the purchase of the unlimited tools and now this is what you get.

24th person in EU / 30nd worldwide to reach 20,000 achievement points.
Currently bearer of 62 titles (excluding “No Title”).

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Posted by: Vol.7601

Vol.7601

I’m glad to see the concordance on this topic. I have not seen a single defender of this, and that’s a plus. As a person with several unlimited tools, I love these items. But now I certainly feel obligated to buy this in order to stay ahead. I don’t know. It kind of sucks.

This is why I made this thread. If there is enough vocal opinion on this (and I strongly believe there will be), then I sincerely hope Anet takes the route of Flamekissed armor and make changes.

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Posted by: lordkrall.7241

lordkrall.7241

Well you supported the whole “Pay 2 Convinience” thing with the purchase of the unlimited tools and now this is what you get.

There is a rather major difference between paying for convinience and paying for advantages though.

I for one will NOT buy this new set if they don’t fix/remove this thing even though I have bought multiple sets of the earlier ones.

Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Aurora Glade

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Posted by: Invictus.1503

Invictus.1503

Indeed, it does feel a bit bad.

I am wondering if it is intended though, seeing as there is no information at all about it in-game as far as I have seen (I haven’t bought it, so might be visible on the item itself, but the store says nothing about it), which makes me think that it might actually be a bug.

Not a bug as they are advertising it on their own website. Here is how they describe it: “A recent breakthrough in mining technology has let us make a new infinite mining pick. This self-repairing pick has a chance to add a Watchwork Sprocket to the rewards when used to mine ore veins!

It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

I’m glad to see the concordance on this topic. I have not seen a single defender of this, and that’s a plus. As a person with several unlimited tools, I love these items. But now I certainly feel obligated to buy this in order to stay ahead. I don’t know. It kind of sucks.

Well you supported the whole “Pay 2 Convinience” thing with the purchase of the unlimited tools and now this is what you get.

Well that’s a little mean, now isn’kitten

Anyway I’ll always pay 2 convenience. I’d rather do that, as a casual player with less than 4 hours a week to play. I’ll also always support anet while playing this game, because it is my hobby and I enjoy it.

(Granted, I used to play 12 h a day but you know, life happens)

My existence in this game is blatantly a bug.
Fashion and Dungeon Mentor of Dungeon Mentors [Noob]

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Posted by: Chrispy.5641

Chrispy.5641

ENDLESS GEAR TREADMILLL!!!

Anet, I am disappoint.

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Posted by: kokiman.2364

kokiman.2364

Well you supported the whole “Pay 2 Convinience” thing with the purchase of the unlimited tools and now this is what you get.

There is a rather major difference between paying for convinience and paying for advantages though.

I for one will NOT buy this new set if they don’t fix/remove this thing even though I have bought multiple sets of the earlier ones.

Well like I said earlier they are trying to test how far they can get. People complained about the first unlimited pick aswell but later people didn’t care anymore and we got more of them + they got more expensive. Now they are trying to give people another incentive to buy them.

24th person in EU / 30nd worldwide to reach 20,000 achievement points.
Currently bearer of 62 titles (excluding “No Title”).

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Posted by: Darkobra.6439

Darkobra.6439

I just emptied my bank account buying a bunch of these for every character.

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Posted by: shootist.3607

shootist.3607

They hired a former Nexon ‘expert’ for monetization, afaik. Doesn’t this say everything?

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Posted by: lordkrall.7241

lordkrall.7241

Not a bug as they are advertising it on their own website. Here is how they describe it: “A recent breakthrough in mining technology has let us make a new infinite mining pick. This self-repairing pick has a chance to add a Watchwork Sprocket to the rewards when used to mine ore veins!

Ah, I had not seen that.
Since that is the case, I would say this is definitely crossing the line.

Well like I said earlier they are trying to test how far they can get. People complained about the first unlimited pick aswell but later people didn’t care anymore and we got more of them + they got more expensive. Now they are trying to give people another incentive to buy them.

The increase in cost is because they changed them from Soulbound to Account bound though.

They hired a former Nexon ‘expert’ for monetization, afaik. Doesn’t this say everything?

They did hire say expert several MONTHS BEFORE the release of the game though. So it is not something new. And if she did all this, one would wonder why she waited over a year with it.

Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Aurora Glade

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Posted by: xarallei.4279

xarallei.4279

I agree. Even though sprockets are kind of useless imho it does set a bad precedent. Back off this kind of thing Anet. Please.

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

You do realize you can already buy 5 trillion sprocket by simply converting gem to gold right?

I fail to see how everyone suddenly get shocked they are paying for advantage.

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Posted by: kokiman.2364

kokiman.2364

They did hire say expert several MONTHS BEFORE the release of the game though. So it is not something new. And if she did all this, one would wonder why she waited over a year with it.

So people get used to it cough accountbound dyes cough

24th person in EU / 30nd worldwide to reach 20,000 achievement points.
Currently bearer of 62 titles (excluding “No Title”).

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Posted by: Fenrir.3609

Fenrir.3609

This is where it starts.

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Posted by: lordkrall.7241

lordkrall.7241

So people get used to it cough accountbound dyes cough

You mean the change made quite some time before release, and with the alternative being a rather grindy mess that most people probably would have hated even more than the current system?

Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Aurora Glade

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Posted by: kokiman.2364

kokiman.2364

So people get used to it cough accountbound dyes cough

You mean the change made quite some time before release, and with the alternative being a rather grindy mess that most people probably would have hated even more than the current system?

I think it was like 1 or 2 months after they “hired” her. The system we saw in the beta, was horrible aswell, that’s true.

24th person in EU / 30nd worldwide to reach 20,000 achievement points.
Currently bearer of 62 titles (excluding “No Title”).

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Posted by: Vol.7601

Vol.7601

You do realize you can already buy 5 trillion sprocket by simply converting gem to gold right?

I fail to see how everyone suddenly get shocked they are paying for advantage.

Right now watchwork sprockets are +35c each.

Wouldn’t you be annoyed if anet offered a pick that offered a 20% chance at 4 chances on a node rather than 3? Cause that’s what is happening if you were to use this on a copper or mithril node. There is no telling the value of sprockets 6 months from now, either.

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

You do realize you can already buy 5 trillion sprocket by simply converting gem to gold right?

I fail to see how everyone suddenly get shocked they are paying for advantage.

Right now watchwork sprockets are +35c each.

Wouldn’t you be annoyed if anet offered a pick that offered a 20% chance at 4 chances on a node rather than 3? Cause that’s what is happening if you were to use this on a copper or mithril node. There is no telling the value of sprockets 6 months from now, either.

So you are annoyed by that and not people can buy gold already?

I’m already annoyed. They dont’ need to introduce a new advantage mining pick for me to be annoyed.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

I wouldn’t necessarily call it pay to win since the sprockets do not provide you any advantage over other players.

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Posted by: Shockwave.1230

Shockwave.1230

I’m definitely tempted to figure out if this is worth it. If there are any items created via sprockets that have a solid price I’ll be converting gold to gems for this.

Sylvari Elementalist – Mystree Duskbloom (Lv 80)
Norn Guardian – Aurora Lustyr (Lv 80)
Mia A Shadows Glow – Human Thief (Lv 80)

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

I wouldn’t necessarily call it pay to win since the sprockets do not provide you any advantage over other players.

Exactly. Which is exactly like buying gold. That don’t provide any advantage over other players.

I don’t get why people are suddenly bothered by things already happening.

The only thing the sprocket mining pick do is making people more gold. Which is already what you can do now with gem conversion.

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Posted by: Morrigan.2809

Morrigan.2809

Much as I love the infinite tools this is not ok.

the point is that they are infinite- it is a mere convenience with the added bonus of looking cool- adding sprockets is not ok- much as I love you, you should not have done this.
Call it a bug and remove it- you really don’t want to go there (PtW)

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Posted by: lordkrall.7241

lordkrall.7241

One solution they could provide is to start selling temporary picks with the same ability in-game. That would make this whole situation better and would mean these picks won’t offer anything not available in the game.

Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Aurora Glade

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Posted by: Vol.7601

Vol.7601

You do realize you can already buy 5 trillion sprocket by simply converting gem to gold right?

I fail to see how everyone suddenly get shocked they are paying for advantage.

Right now watchwork sprockets are +35c each.

Wouldn’t you be annoyed if anet offered a pick that offered a 20% chance at 4 chances on a node rather than 3? Cause that’s what is happening if you were to use this on a copper or mithril node. There is no telling the value of sprockets 6 months from now, either.

So you are annoyed by that and not people can buy gold already?

I’m already annoyed. They dont’ need to introduce a new advantage mining pick for me to be annoyed.

Not sure why you want to go that route, but OK.

People can legitimately buy gold, yes, but what can they do with it that makes them better than people who don’t? Everything in this game can be accessed by normal players.

You can ‘buy’ gold and get a legendary, or you can make it.
You can ‘buy’ gold and get exotics, or you can get it through karma/game gold/other

The difference with this pick is that there is no other alternative in game to get it (strictly speaking across mining picks). No other mining pick in game so far can give a 20% chance at sprockets. This one does. That’s not good.

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

The reality is you can convert gold to gem too.

I get many people are unhappy though.

I would be very unhappy also. But I give up being the carrot chaser.

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Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

DiogoSilva.7089

P2W means that you are using real $ to become better than other players. It’s completely unfair and ugly.

Is this a dangerous precedent? Yes. But is this new mining pick P2W? No way. It’s the opposite, actually. You are spending a massive amount of gems to get more conveniently a material that you could otherwise get for much cheaper from the TP.

It’s convenient fluff.

Elementalist.

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

It depend how much those sprocket will went up. I have maybe 10 toons filled with sprocket, by the look of it, it won’t went up too much.

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Posted by: Malediktus.9250

Malediktus.9250

Definatly pay to win.

25th person in EU / 32nd worldwide to reach 20,000 achievement points.
Currently bearer of 61 titles (excluding “No Title”).
Make miniatures more desireable!

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Posted by: Passafist.2035

Passafist.2035

Don’t forget, the new pick is account bound as well. the older picks are not

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Posted by: Tsaerid.5084

Tsaerid.5084

Definitely not a fan of this, keep any infinite tools as pure convenience/cosmetic items, no bonus loot.

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Posted by: CureForLiving.5360

CureForLiving.5360

I think a perfectly good conversation about the gem shop was knee capped and dumped into the lake so that players can whine and complain… Seriously, do you all think ANet would take something like this seriously?

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Posted by: Vol.7601

Vol.7601

Don’t forget, the new pick is account bound as well. the older picks are not

The older picks were later changed to account bound. You just need to manually do it yourself through a vendor.

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Posted by: StinVec.3621

StinVec.3621

For great feeling of Felankor! (saved the thread if anyone wants it)
My Suggestions: #1 | #2 | #3 | #4 | #5 | #6 | #7 | #8 | #9 | #10 | #11 | #12 |
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Posted by: Beldin.5498

Beldin.5498

I remember that when you payed around 25 Gold for the first picks people did the math and said that you have to harvest maybe 65.000 time so that you have started to save money against buying orichalcum picks.

Now .. if you have harvest over 65.000 that item will suddenly also be pay to win since every 100 picks you save the money you would else have to pay for a new pick.

Now however a new pick costs what ? 80 Gold maybe ? So you have to pick maybe 180.000 times to get back the money. If you save 6,7 copper per pick now because of the sprockets you will maybe still have to pick over 100.000 times that the investment pays of.

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Posted by: Galen Grey.4709

Galen Grey.4709

One solution they could provide is to start selling temporary picks with the same ability in-game. That would make this whole situation better and would mean these picks won’t offer anything not available in the game.

+1 … yeah this would be the ideal solution for this issue I agree.

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Posted by: Distaste.4801

Distaste.4801

P2W means that you are using real $ to become better than other players. It’s completely unfair and ugly.

Is this a dangerous precedent? Yes. But is this new mining pick P2W? No way. It’s the opposite, actually. You are spending a massive amount of gems to get more conveniently a material that you could otherwise get for much cheaper from the TP.

It’s convenient fluff.

The only reason the sprockets are currently cheap is because you can still get them. Once Scarlet is gone the major source of sprockets is gone too. The prices start to go up. Suddenly have an extra 20% chance to get sprockets is quite lucrative, giving anyone who has the pick an advantage.

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Posted by: Rouven.7409

Rouven.7409

I guess for 800 gems (or whatever the tool costs) you could get more sprockets right now then you will mine the next 5 years with the pick … but as a matter of principal I agree, not cool.

Getting mining nodes as part of a reward through play is one thing, getting extras like that with a bought item is not right.

Why not double the yield of a node then? 20% chance to convert every normal node into a rich node for yourself with the “MineMorePickMe” pick, now from your convenient convenience store.

Nope, that wouldn’t be right either, which is why those tools are only as good as the best regular in-game tool.

This makes them better.

“Whose Kitten is this?” – “It’s a Charr baby.”
“Whose Charr is this?”- “Ted’s.”
“Who’s Ted?”- “Ted’s dead, baby. Ted’s dead.”

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Posted by: Randulf.7614

Randulf.7614

I’m not seeing the pay to win element here. Where is the gameplay advantage from sprockets? How would this be any different from saying using real money to buy gems to make gold to buy sprockets? This is just an extra step in the process.

Also, we can get sprockets from the current meta and boss rewards. There is nothing to say watchwork drops aren’t permanent as we don’t know if the watchwork mobs are staying around post-season LS.

Twilight Gathering (Gunnars Hold)
Proudly keyboard turning since 2003

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

It depend how much those sprocket will went up. I have maybe 10 toons filled with sprocket, by the look of it, it won’t went up too much.

You do realize that the price of sprockets will fall? This is one of the reasons that its not pay to win because now there will be an abundant surplus of an item that has no real use other than for a few things.

If be more worried about a pick that provided 20% for silk or linen scraps. However it would still not be pay to win. Anything that is sellable on the TP will eventually have its value lowered if its easier to get.

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Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

DiogoSilva.7089

I remember that when you payed around 25 Gold for the first picks people did the math and said that you have to harvest maybe 65.000 time so that you have started to save money against buying orichalcum picks.

Now .. if you have harvest over 65.000 that item will suddenly also be pay to win since every 100 picks you save the money you would else have to pay for a new pick.

Now however a new pick costs what ? 80 Gold maybe ? So you have to pick maybe 180.000 times to get back the money. If you save 6,7 copper per pick now because of the sprockets you will maybe still have to pick over 100.000 times that the investment pays of.

And because this is highly unrealistic, and demands a really heavy time investment and devout dedication, there is nothing remotely close to P2W behind this mining pick.

Even in the day where players will finally save money out of this, they will do so not because they “bought to win”, but because of their crazy dedication.

Elementalist.

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Posted by: EdgarMTanaka.7291

EdgarMTanaka.7291

1. I don’t see the Pay 2 Win in it since I have already got a Sprocket lode in my home.
2. I am probably going to get one since I need a infinete mining pick.
3. I was pretty sure something like this where comming when seeing this rare Sprocket crafting thing that costs 500 sprockets to make.
4. For some reason I don’t think Scarlet minion attacks will stop even after scarlet LS, maby it will be remoduled to be interesting again.
5. Sprockets are not gone yet, don’t write doomsday on your calendar just yet but I see your point (Your = People who’s opinion it is pay2win).