Magic Find - What I don't like

Magic Find - What I don't like

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Posted by: Flissy.4093

Flissy.4093

This is what ArenaNet Game Director Colin Johanson has to say about the matter:

Some fun ideas in here, we’re also actively discussing ways on how we’d best like to alleviate having to make players choose between having better stats, or using magic find. It’s not a choice that’s great for game play and there isn’t really anything that fun about it, even more so when group composition is taken into account.

[Flame wall: Initiated!]

Magic find is a bad stat. This is not news to many, and many others refuse to accept it. I’m here to draw the line and briefly explain some of the reasons why it is bad.


Where is it good?
I will admit, Magic Find is actually good and I recommend to use it in some situations. I will list these situations below:

  • Large scale events, such as many Cursed Shore events. This is due to them being “mass tag” events.

And thus ends that list.


Why is it bad for solo play?
Simple – You’re giving up offensive potential for an increased drop rate on certain items. So why is this bad in solo play?

Also simple – less kills per hour - Less kills per hour = less loot per hour. Counter-productive isn’t it?

While it wastes time in solo play, it only wastes your own time, which you are, of course, entitled to.


Why is it bad in group play?
This is the real issue with Magic Find and a sole reason it should not be in the game…

The person using Magic Find gear contributes the least, but get’s the best reward.

Why does this make sense? A huge design flaw.

You are giving up offensive potential and wasting time. You are not only wasting your time, you are also wasting your groups. Wasting other players’ time is selfish & rude. So ArenaNet promote selfish play.


What can be done about it in group play?
I’m bordering into suggestions here, but I’ll list a few methods to prevent selfish use of this stat:

  • Allow the other player’s to be aware when someone in their group is using Magic Find gear, through a visual such as a boon listing how much Magic Find they currently have.
    — While a lot of player’s are against “elitism” in gear checking, as I stated earlier the person using Magic Find gear contributes the least, but get’s the best reward. Nobody wants to be a losing end of that, so those players deserve to know when someone is wasting their time for a selfish gain.
  • Make the entire party benefit from someone’s Magic Find in the dungeon.
    — For example, there are two people in the dungeon using Magic Find, one with 36%, the other with 110%. I propose that everybody has an effective 110% Magic Find in that dungeon. This could actually make Magic Find a GOOD stat for people who are not seeking speedy dungeon, but remaining fair as the whole group is penalized speed wise, but everybody benefits in terms of loot quality.
    — The worry for me here is it could lead people to feel like they need to use Magic Find so the whole group can benefit from it. This would mean you could easily get 3 Magic Find users in a group – one with 55%, one with 100%, and the other with 150%. You’d have 2 players gimping themselves for nobody’s benefit.
    — A few other players suggested the combined MF of the group to be shared instead, which is an equally – if not more – viable fix.
    ——-

TLDR; Magic Find is bad – don’t use it.

(edited by Flissy.4093)

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Posted by: Zackie.8923

Zackie.8923

the whole idea of MF is bad because not using MF means i don’t get the best chances

But it pigeonholes me into using MF for almost everything i do, so i will never use the set that i actually want to use.

reminds me of Diablo2 where MF was everything, so i end up playing the game with MF as my main set. which is dumb to be honest.

(edited by Zackie.8923)

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Posted by: Geotherma.2395

Geotherma.2395

Just a quick tip about magic find: you can achieve a lot of magic find without gear, and therefore isn’t all that bad.

Omnomberry Bar 30% MF – 40% Gold – +10XP
Guild Buff 10% MF
Guild Buff 5% XP
Guild Banner 5% XP
Guild Banner 10% MF
Magic Find Booster 50% MF or MF Bonfire
Experience Booster 50% XP
Laurel Coin Booster 30% Gold
Laurel MF Booster 30% MF
Laurel XP Booster 30% XP

130% MF
70% Gold
90% XP
+10 Xp

But you can get up to 327 MF with gear and buffs combined.

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Magic Find - What I don't like

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Posted by: Flissy.4093

Flissy.4093

Just a quick tip about magic find: you can achieve a lot of magic find without gear, and therefore isn’t all that bad.

Omnomberry Bar 30% MF – 40% Gold – +10XP
Guild Buff 10% MF
Guild Buff 5% XP
Guild Banner 5% XP
Guild Banner 10% MF
Magic Find Booster 50% MF or MF Bonfire
Experience Booster 50% XP
Laurel Coin Booster 30% Gold
Laurel MF Booster 30% MF
Laurel XP Booster 30% XP

130% MF
70% Gold
90% XP
+10 Xp

Obviously Banners & Booster are totally acceptable.

Omnomberry Bars are to a lesser extent, but at least Gold Find is visible so you can actually see the effect, not to mention the stat loss for Magic Find is exponentially better on these. Really can’t blame player’s for using these.

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Posted by: Akari Storm.6809

Akari Storm.6809

I personally think MF was done in a not so practical way.
I personally think ascended gear was done in a not so practical way. But I kind of dig the MF on ascended gear, but not done in a practical way.

IMO, MF should be in addition to regular stated gear, something to be added on. That way there is a base of which has everyone on equal footing. I mean MF could have had it’s own slot like a jewel. You have to create/find these jewels to help you earn better rewards.

You could have had ascended gear be infused with MF and AR. You could have had an infusion process that allowed you to add MF to your gear. I just think the whole thing was done in a way that rewards those who actually bring less to the team. It’s not much less as content isn’t really that difficult, but It could have been a really great system with more goals to work for.

The best gear in the game would have optimal stats +MF.

Oh, and what I meant to say about ascended gear being done wrong has to do with another topic mostly concerning fixed stats and the omission of jewels (so far). Hope if Armors/weapons make it in, that it’s done right and not make runes/jewels/sigils obsolete with fixed crap. Done correctly imho would be as I described, additional slot for MF, so
Main Stat
Secondary stat
Secondary stat

Rune/Jewel/Sigil slot
Agony infusion slot
Magic Find slot

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Why is it bad in group play?
This is the real issue with Magic Find and a sole reason it should not be in the game…

The person using Magic Find gear contributes the least, but get’s the best reward.

Did you try to run any high level dungeon with an inexperienced Berserker warrior? How much damage do you do while dirtnapping? How much a person can contribute doesn’t always depend on their gear. In fact gear plays almost no role in it.

You are giving up offensive potential and wasting time. You are not only wasting your time, you are also wasting your groups. Wasting other players’ time is selfish & rude. So ArenaNet promote selfish play.

there is a new gear set.
Vitality being the highest stat, then toughness, then power. A mf user will outdamage this person. Do you think that the person in those stats is selfish? You would say, no, they survive well. Then why do you oppose mf user? Because even if he survives without vit/ toughness he could sacrifice mf for extra damage, because he is being selfish. So essentially he is being selfish by not providing enough damage even though he can outdamage other gear sets. Not to mention the gear set with mf and condi damage. Condi damage never comes with power anyway. But no, those people are guilty of something too. It’s selfish to care about what others wear.

  • Allow the other player’s to be aware when someone in their group is using Magic Find gear, through a visual such as a boon listing how much Magic Find they currently have.
    — While a lot of player’s are against “elitism” in gear checking, as I stated earlier the person using Magic Find gear contributes the least, but get’s the best reward. Nobody wants to be a losing end of that, so those players deserve to know when someone is wasting their time for a selfish gain.

Arena net let me discriminate against people, because I don’t like them! While we’re at it, why not show the party who has vitality, who has toughness, what abilities people are using, how long have they been playing, where did they put points into and if any of their alts has a legendary. Because you know, we need to know that the person is going to do the most damage, is using the best build, is experienced and has the most expensive item in the game, otherwise why do they want to party up with superior us?

  • Make the entire party benefit from someone’s Magic Find in the dungeon.
    — For example, there are two people in the dungeon using Magic Find, one with 36%, the other with 110%. I propose that everybody has an effective 110% Magic Find in that dungeon. This could actually make Magic Find a GOOD stat for people who are not seeking speedy dungeon, but remaining fair as the whole group is penalized speed wise, but everybody benefits in terms of loot quality.

so essentially “I want magic find, but I don’t want to sacrifice anything of mine, so please give me magic find of the people that learned how to act and fight in that gear!”. Yeah, no.

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Posted by: gimmethegepgun.1284

gimmethegepgun.1284

Did you try to run any high level dungeon with an inexperienced Berserker warrior? How much damage do you do while dirtnapping? How much a person can contribute doesn’t always depend on their gear. In fact gear plays almost no role in it.

So you claim that gear plays almost no role, immediately after bringing up Berserker warriors, a gear setup, as if it is an extremely important fact that heavily changes the capabilities of that warrior.
Great going.

Vitality being the highest stat, then toughness, then power. A mf user will outdamage this person. Do you think that the person in those stats is selfish? You would say, no, they survive well. Then why do you oppose mf user? Because even if he survives without vit/ toughness he could sacrifice mf for extra damage, because he is being selfish. So essentially he is being selfish by not providing enough damage even though he can outdamage other gear sets. Not to mention the gear set with mf and condi damage. Condi damage never comes with power anyway. But no, those people are guilty of something too. It’s selfish to care about what others wear.

Do vitality and toughness provide value to the team? Yes. A person who is not down is dealing damage or doing other useful things. A downed person is doing jackall and is wasting someones time to rez them. You already said as much in your previous point.
Does MF provide any benefit to the group ever? Nope. Is MF gear strictly worse at fighting than Berserker’s or Knight’s? Yep.

(edited by gimmethegepgun.1284)

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Did you try to run any high level dungeon with an inexperienced Berserker warrior? How much damage do you do while dirtnapping? How much a person can contribute doesn’t always depend on their gear. In fact gear plays almost no role in it.

So you claim that gear plays almost no role, immediately after bringing up Berserker warriors, a gear setup, as if it is an extremely important fact that heavily changes the capabilities of that warrior.
Great going.

I bring up berserker, because it’s the gear set with the most damage. A person that opened this topic says that the best way to contribute is trough damage, that mf users are wrong because they do less damage. So I fitted the highest damaging class with the highest damaging gear and asked – if the player is not perfect and spends most of his time dead how much damage do they do? Can’t the person help out with healing, condition removal, revival?
How helpful a person is depends a) on their skill b) on their wish to help the team and cooperate, rarely is it anything to do with gear.

Do vitality and toughness provide value to the team? Yes. A person who is not down is dealing damage or doing other useful things. A downed person is doing jackall and is wasting someones time to rez them. You already said as much in your previous point.
Does MF provide any benefit to the group ever? Nope. Is MF gear strictly worse at fighting than Berserker’s or Knight’s? Yep.

let’s say the person wearing vitality gear never got hit. Not a single time. But they don’t want to upgrade to berserkers. A person wearing mf outdamages the person in vitality gear that doesn’t get hit. How come the mf user is wrong here, but not the vitality user? How about we stop caring about the gear sets of others and just provide the best help for our team?

(edited by Mirta.5029)

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Posted by: Flissy.4093

Flissy.4093

You are giving up offensive potential and wasting time. You are not only wasting your time, you are also wasting your groups. Wasting other players’ time is selfish & rude. So ArenaNet promote selfish play.

there is a new gear set.
Vitality being the highest stat, then toughness, then power. A mf user will outdamage this person.

Indeed they will, but if they are running Power/Prec/MF, why would they run Vit/Power/Tough? They clearly prove they don’t need the defence so would be fine using either Rampagers/Berserker depedant on their profession/build, yet limit their offensive capabilities for a personal gain.

Arena net let me discriminate against people, because I don’t like them! While we’re at it, why not show the party who has vitality, who has toughness

The issue is Magic Find benefits the rest of the group is no way. While I’m not a fan of vitality and dislike it, and believe toughness should only be on the group anchor, at least this will increase the survivability of that person allowing them to stay on their feet. Taking those stats means the player feels uncomforable, i.e. goes down a lot, without it.

Did you try to run any high level dungeon with an inexperienced Berserker warrior? How much damage do you do while dirtnapping? How much a person can contribute doesn’t always depend on their gear. In fact gear plays almost no role in it.

Why would I take someone inexperienced to a high level Fractal? If someone such as the example here was to sneak in the group, I’d be able to quickly identify him and he’d be removed and replaced on account of being a bad player in difficult content.

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Posted by: gimmethegepgun.1284

gimmethegepgun.1284

Did you try to run any high level dungeon with an inexperienced Berserker warrior? How much damage do you do while dirtnapping? How much a person can contribute doesn’t always depend on their gear. In fact gear plays almost no role in it.

So you claim that gear plays almost no role, immediately after bringing up Berserker warriors, a gear setup, as if it is an extremely important fact that heavily changes the capabilities of that warrior.
Great going.

I bring up berserker, because it’s the gear set with the most damage. A person that opened this topic says that the best way to contribute is trough damage, that mf users are wrong because they do less damage. So I fitted the highest damaging class with the highest damaging gear and asked – if the player is not perfect and spends most of his time dead how much damage do they do? Can’t the person help out with healing, condition removal, revival?
How helpful a person is depends a) on their skill b) on their wish to help the team and cooperate, rarely is it anything to do with gear.

Do vitality and toughness provide value to the team? Yes. A person who is not down is dealing damage or doing other useful things. A downed person is doing jackall and is wasting someones time to rez them. You already said as much in your previous point.
Does MF provide any benefit to the group ever? Nope. Is MF gear strictly worse at fighting than Berserker’s or Knight’s? Yep.

let’s say the person wearing vitality gear never got hit. Not a single time. But they don’t want to upgrade to berserkers. A person wearing mf outdamages the person in vitality gear that doesn’t get hit. How come the mf user is wrong here, but not the vitality user? How about we stop caring about the gear sets of others and just provide the best help for our team?

So Berserker’s is both “the gear set with the most damage” and at the same time “plays almost no role” in gameplay, is what you’re saying. Make up your mind before arguing with yourself.

If the person wearing survival gear never gets hit then their gear doesn’t match their playstyle. However, survival stats aren’t inherently valueless in combat the way MF is, as someone who can’t avoid all attacks will benefit from it, while MF gear is always less effective than gear that has the same non-MF stats, but has something actually useful instead of MF.

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Indeed they will, but if they are running Power/Prec/MF, why would they run Vit/Power/Tough? They clearly prove they don’t need the defence so would be fine using either Rampagers/Berserker depedant on their profession/build, yet limit their offensive capabilities for a personal gain.

Because they don’t want to. Why should they change just because you want them to? Isn’t that, I don’t know, selfish? What happened to “everyone is allowed to play the way that they want”! You seem like an elitist to me.

The issue is Magic Find benefits the rest of the group is no way. While I’m not a fan of vitality and dislike it, and believe toughness should only be on the group anchor, at least this will increase the survivability of that person allowing them to stay on their feet. Taking those stats means the player feels uncomforable, i.e. goes down a lot, without it.

let’s forget that they’re helping the team out and actually are doing some damage. Are you implying that a person not in exotics or ascendeds doesn’t contribute to the team? IF a person runs with rares in your opinion he should be kicked, because he’s in no way a help?

Why would I take someone inexperienced to a high level Fractal? If someone such as the example here was to sneak in the group, I’d be able to quickly identify him and he’d be removed and replaced on account of being a bad player in difficult content.

So instead of teaching players and helping them out you kick them because you want perfection? I was right, you indeed are an elitist. I suggest you find a guild that shares your opinion instead of hurting random pugs.

So Berserker’s is both “the gear set with the most damage” and at the same time “plays almost no role” in gameplay, is what you’re saying. Make up your mind before arguing with yourself.

like I said, there are different ways you can be useful to your team. “Does the msot damage” doesn’t always result with “helps out the most”, therefore how helpful a player is should not be decided by the players gear.

If the person wearing survival gear never gets hit then their gear doesn’t match their playstyle. However, survival stats aren’t inherently valueless in combat the way MF is, as someone who can’t avoid all attacks will benefit from it, while MF gear is always less effective than gear that has the same non-MF stats, but has something actually useful instead of MF.

so in your opinion people wearing MF should change because you personally want them to?

(edited by Mirta.5029)

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Posted by: gimmethegepgun.1284

gimmethegepgun.1284

let’s forget that they’re helping the team out and actually are doing some damage. Are you implying that a person not in exotics or ascendeds doesn’t contribute to the team? IF a person runs with rares in your opinion he should be kicked, because he’s in no way a help?

Maybe someone in rares couldn’t afford exotics? Maybe they’re doing dungeon runs in order to GET exotics?
But if someone is in exotic MF gear obviously they could afford exotics, but then they chose to get the less effective copy of Berserker’s/Rampager’s so they could get better drops and then run in a group with it.
They intentionally nerfed themselves, and by extension their group, for personal (not shared) gain.

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Posted by: Flissy.4093

Flissy.4093

Indeed they will, but if they are running Power/Prec/MF, why would they run Vit/Power/Tough? They clearly prove they don’t need the defence so would be fine using either Rampagers/Berserker depedant on their profession/build, yet limit their offensive capabilities for a personal gain.

Because they don’t want to. Why should they change just because you want them to? Isn’t that, I don’t know, selfish? What happened to “everyone is allowed to play the way that they want”! You seem like an elitist to me.

I will admit straight up that I am elitist, but a lesser kind that does allow error room so long as the person is capable and will not kick a player because he cost us 2 seconds in a run. I appreciate the game is there for enjoyment, but not at the cost of other players.

They should change because it does not benefit the group at all. Me asking them to do this is far from selfish, it saves the entire group time so is selfless if anything.

The issue is Magic Find benefits the rest of the group is no way. While I’m not a fan of vitality and dislike it, and believe toughness should only be on the group anchor, at least this will increase the survivability of that person allowing them to stay on their feet. Taking those stats means the player feels uncomforable, i.e. goes down a lot, without it.

let’s forget that they’re helping the team out and actually are doing some damage. Are you implying that a person not in exotics or ascendeds doesn’t contribute to the team? IF a person runs with rares in your opinion he should be kicked, because he’s in no way a help?

Lets take a closer look

let’s forget that they’re helping the team out and actually are doing some damage. Are you implying that a person not in exotics or ascendeds doesn’t contribute to the team? IF a person runs with rares in your opinion he should be kicked, because he’s in no way a help?

And a bit closer

let’s forget that they’re helping the team out

So let’s put it in and entirely hypothetical situation that isn’t the case? Okay.

As for rares, they are still being beneficial just not as much as someone in exotics/ascended with the same stat prefix will be. I would sooner take someone in rare berserker/knights than someone in ascended/exotic explorer purely because I do not promote selfish play, and if I was to accept Magic Find geared players I would be promoting selfish play.

Why would I take someone inexperienced to a high level Fractal? If someone such as the example here was to sneak in the group, I’d be able to quickly identify him and he’d be removed and replaced on account of being a bad player in difficult content.

So instead of teaching players and helping them out you kick them because you want perfection? I was right, you indeed are an elitist. I suggest you find a guild that shares your opinion instead of hurting random pugs.

If they still require learning they should be avoiding high level fractals. The level scaling is there for a reason – to climb them and learn the content. Why should I put up with someone who is, for example, level 18 in a 40+ fractal when he clearly isn’t experienced enough?

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Posted by: gimmethegepgun.1284

gimmethegepgun.1284

Since you’re (Mirta) clearly going to continue denying your own words, how about working with your example.
So this terrible warrior who dies instantly because he doesn’t know what he’s doing. Yes, gear is irrelevant there because he was too incompetent to live long enough to use it. However, this doesn’t say anything about the value of the MF gear compared to it, as neither had enough of a chance to do anything that can be compared.
To compare the value of the gear, look to a more successful situation. The warrior stays alive pretty well, dealing damage the way they’re supposed to and generally being competent. But in MF he is dealing quite a bit less damage than he would be in Berserker’s. Not because of any difference in play, but because Berserker’s is equal to or superior to Explorer’s in every way. Explorer’s has absolutely no redeeming value in a fight over it.

(edited by gimmethegepgun.1284)

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Since you’re (Mirta) clearly going to continue denying your own words, how about working with your example.
So this terrible warrior who dies instantly because he doesn’t know what he’s doing. Yes, gear is irrelevant there because he was too incompetent to live long enough to use it. However, this doesn’t say anything about the value of the MF gear compared to it, as neither had enough of a chance to do anything that can be compared.
To compare the value of the gear, look to a more successful situation. The warrior stays alive pretty well, dealing damage the way they’re supposed to and generally being competent. But in MF he is dealing quite a bit less damage than he would be in Berserker’s. Not because of any difference in play, but because Berserker’s is equal to or superior to Explorer’s in every way. Explorer’s has absolutely no redeeming value in a fight over it.

my point is that the person wearing explorer’s can have a redeeming value to him. The gear that he chose, it’s not my right to question why he chose what he chose. Does he still deal damage? Yes. Does he still help out? Yes. Would the run be faster if the party didn’t have anyone in his slot? No. Then why should I DEMAND the person to change? Isn’t it about allowing everyone to play the way they want to play? If they want to wear mf gear, let them. Instead of complaining you can just put LFGs that state that you will do a gear check if it bother you so much. While I will continue to not judge people on numbers.

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Posted by: Flissy.4093

Flissy.4093

Since you’re (Mirta) clearly going to continue denying your own words, how about working with your example.
So this terrible warrior who dies instantly because he doesn’t know what he’s doing. Yes, gear is irrelevant there because he was too incompetent to live long enough to use it. However, this doesn’t say anything about the value of the MF gear compared to it, as neither had enough of a chance to do anything that can be compared.
To compare the value of the gear, look to a more successful situation. The warrior stays alive pretty well, dealing damage the way they’re supposed to and generally being competent. But in MF he is dealing quite a bit less damage than he would be in Berserker’s. Not because of any difference in play, but because Berserker’s is equal to or superior to Explorer’s in every way. Explorer’s has absolutely no redeeming value in a fight over it.

my point is that the person wearing explorer’s can have a redeeming value to him. The gear that he chose, it’s not my right to question why he chose what he chose. Does he still deal damage? Yes. Does he still help out? Yes. Would the run be faster if the party didn’t have anyone in his slot? No. Then why should I DEMAND the person to change? Isn’t it about allowing everyone to play the way they want to play? If they want to wear mf gear, let them. Instead of complaining you can just put LFGs that state that you will do a gear check if it bother you so much. While I will continue to not judge people on numbers.

Like I say, if he’s comfortable running Pow/Prec/MF he should be comfortable in Pow/Prec/Crit or Pow/Prec/Cond, yet chooses not to due to selfish benefits. Wasting 4 other peoples’ time for a selfish reason is rude and rudeness is not welcomed in group play.

I feel like I’m just regurgitating information now.

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Since you’re (Mirta) clearly going to continue denying your own words, how about working with your example.
So this terrible warrior who dies instantly because he doesn’t know what he’s doing. Yes, gear is irrelevant there because he was too incompetent to live long enough to use it. However, this doesn’t say anything about the value of the MF gear compared to it, as neither had enough of a chance to do anything that can be compared.
To compare the value of the gear, look to a more successful situation. The warrior stays alive pretty well, dealing damage the way they’re supposed to and generally being competent. But in MF he is dealing quite a bit less damage than he would be in Berserker’s. Not because of any difference in play, but because Berserker’s is equal to or superior to Explorer’s in every way. Explorer’s has absolutely no redeeming value in a fight over it.

my point is that the person wearing explorer’s can have a redeeming value to him. The gear that he chose, it’s not my right to question why he chose what he chose. Does he still deal damage? Yes. Does he still help out? Yes. Would the run be faster if the party didn’t have anyone in his slot? No. Then why should I DEMAND the person to change? Isn’t it about allowing everyone to play the way they want to play? If they want to wear mf gear, let them. Instead of complaining you can just put LFGs that state that you will do a gear check if it bother you so much. While I will continue to not judge people on numbers.

Like I say, if he’s comfortable running Pow/Prec/MF he should be comfortable in Pow/Prec/Crit or Pow/Prec/Cond, yet chooses not to due to selfish benefits. Wasting 4 other peoples’ time for a selfish reason is rude and rudeness is not welcomed in group play.

I feel like I’m just regurgitating information now.

then exclude him from your groups, don’t yell at the gear set on the forums. I would rather run with magic find users, because to me there’s no difference about how a person plays, what build he is in or what gear set, as long as the person is contributing, than with elitists.

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Posted by: Flissy.4093

Flissy.4093

then exclude him from your groups,

I do, and you’re bashing me for it.

Of course I can never stop people running MF, but I can encourage people to reject players who are penalizing the group for a selfish gain so all the MF scrubs can play with other MF scrubs and spend 30 minutes doing COF Path 1.

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Posted by: gimmethegepgun.1284

gimmethegepgun.1284

So would you defend a gear set that has 3 minor stats instead of 1 major 2 minor, with an identical set to another gear set, because “if someone wants to use it blah blah”?
Or would you say that the gear set is completely pointless and devoid of value compared to its superior stat set?

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

then exclude him from your groups,

I do, and you’re bashing me for it.

Of course I can never stop people running MF, but I can encourage people to reject players who are penalizing the group for a selfish gain so all the MF scrubs can play with other MF scrubs and spend 30 minutes doing COF Path 1.

you should not spread discrimination.
And by the way, even if you ran naked with white weapons CoF path 1 will at most take 15 minutes. All people in MF would probably take 8 minutes. All in berserker – 6. Uuuuh what a big difference!

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Posted by: Flissy.4093

Flissy.4093

you should not spread discrimination.
And by the way, even if you ran naked with white weapons CoF path 1 will at most take 15 minutes. All people in MF would probably take 8 minutes. All in berserker – 6. Uuuuh what a big difference!

My comment was a hyperbole, but I’d be surprised if you know what that is.

I’d like to see evidence of this 15 minute naked run.

And once again, they’re slowing the group down for selfish reasons by 33%, why should the others accept this?

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Posted by: Lambent.6375

Lambent.6375

Actually, as a ranger with 20 in BM, I don’t think I kill that much slower in my MF gear when I’m out solo.

My MF gear consist if:

Level 78 zerk armor with pirate/traveler runes and explorer trinkes(aside from the back)

Main gear:

Zerk w/ ruby orbs and knights trinkets.

Better than my MF set, but with 20 BM, and with masters bond or swapping cats, I drop things at a pretty decent rate when I’m wearing my MF set.

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

you should not spread discrimination.
And by the way, even if you ran naked with white weapons CoF path 1 will at most take 15 minutes. All people in MF would probably take 8 minutes. All in berserker – 6. Uuuuh what a big difference!

My comment was a hyperbole, but I’d be surprised if you know what that is.

I’d like to see evidence of this 15 minute naked run.

And once again, they’re slowing the group down for selfish reasons by 33%, why should the others accept this?

There are naked runs of dungeons. Someone did AC just to prove that it’s not too hard. CoF is easier than AC. It would not take long.
Because they are helpful in other ways, because they’re helping the group by 67%, because 4 manning the dungeon wouldn’t be faster and because they’re not worse on damaging that vitality/ toughness users.
You’re suggesting something like this "there are 50 people. 20 of them haven a IQ of 120 . 20 of them have an IQ of 110, but have a university degree. 10 of them have an IQ of 60.
You’re allowed to chose those with a bigger IQ. However you’re not allowed to walk to a person with an IQ of 110 and yell “get smarter” at their faces, you’re also not allowed to try to disgrace those people by saying that people with an IQ of 60 should take their place because they’re just less fortunate (rare users), but a person with an IQ of 110 should have forced himself to study an extra subject to get more IQ points and therefore should be discriminated against"

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Posted by: Flissy.4093

Flissy.4093

You’re whole IQ scenario is not at the expense at others’ time. Which wasting others’ time, for the …. 5th time now? … is rude and deserves no place in group content.

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

You’re whole IQ scenario is not at the expense at others’ time. Which wasting others’ time, for the …. 5th time now? … is rude and deserves no place in group content.

they do more damage than not having a person and the same damage as any set user except for Berserkers. Hence having the IQ of 110. They would probably would and calculate slower than a person with an IQ of 120. Do they waste others time by helping others with their research? If you don’t want them in your elitist fast researcher groups that you only take the best of the best, then fine, I don’t mind taking them into my parties and I think that making a topic about how one should discriminate against said players is beyond being a worthless scum.

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Posted by: Flissy.4093

Flissy.4093

f you don’t want them in your elitist fast researcher groups that you only take the best of the best, then fine, I don’t mind taking them into my parties

Of course I can never stop people running MF, but I can encourage people to reject players who are penalizing the group for a selfish gain.

Just gonna quote myself if this conversation continues. Haven’t had to say anything new for a while.

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Of course I can never stop people running MF, but I can encourage people to reject players who are penalizing the group for a selfish gain.

If you don’t want them in your elitist fast researcher groups that you only take the best of the best, then fine, I don’t mind taking them into my parties and I think that making a topic about how one should discriminate against said players is beyond being a worthless scum.

Encouraging to reject = spreading your discrimination. Stop it.

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Posted by: Theftwind.8976

Theftwind.8976

I beg to differ with you but I will use a full set of MF when I am farming Mobs. Without the MF I may be able to kill faster but I would never make the same amount of profit as I do when I use MF. Prime example, I farmed Sparks for an hour with my regular armour, no MF and found an assortment of junk with the best being a green. I then ramped up to 171% MF and in the next hour found 3 charged lodestones and 2 rares and yet that second hour should have been when DR kicked in, yet I made well over 7 gold in profit. I would not run dungeons in mf gear, even though my mf gear is exotic but when farming for profit it is the only way to go.

Theftwind (HoD)

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Posted by: gimmethegepgun.1284

gimmethegepgun.1284

Your IQ metaphor doesn’t work because the 110s didn’t choose to have a lower IQ than the 120s.
A MF user explicitly chooses to make themselves worse for their own gain. This choice makes them worse for their group without actually giving the group anything in return, only the user. Every other stat, every other stat combination, could be argued to be the most effective thing for some circumstance, could be argued to be the best thing for that person. Everything else could conceivably be of more value than any other stat combination in some circumstance or another. Everything except the gear with MF, which is strictly worse than another set.

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Posted by: Flissy.4093

Flissy.4093

I beg to differ with you but I will use a full set of MF when I am farming Mobs. Without the MF I may be able to kill faster but I would never make the same amount of profit as I do when I use MF. Prime example, I farmed Sparks for an hour with my regular armour, no MF and found an assortment of junk with the best being a green. I then ramped up to 171% MF and in the next hour found 3 charged lodestones and 2 rares and yet that second hour should have been when DR kicked in, yet I made well over 7 gold in profit. I would not run dungeons in mf gear, even though my mf gear is exotic but when farming for profit it is the only way to go.

I don’t focus too much on people running MF in their own time, as nobody but themselves is losing out.

As for your example, the sample size is too small to say “look how good MF is”.

Actually leads me onto another problem – there is no way to know if your increased magic find got you X drop, or Y drop. You may have gotten those without the bonus MF.

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Posted by: Theftwind.8976

Theftwind.8976

I carry both sets of gear with me and rotate my farming between different areas and different mobs. The above example does have a small sample size but I have farmed enough with and without MF to state without a doubt that I make more with magic find equipped.

Theftwind (HoD)

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Posted by: HotHit.6783

HotHit.6783

I don’t get what this argument is trying to be. All stats benefit the entire party in some way, except magic find. What’s being asked is that users of magic find be as potentially useful to the party and therefore be actively searched for when making parties.

People who hate players mooching with their magic find gear don’t get mooching anymore. People who like using magic find gear get to enjoy being accepted into groups without discrimination (highly valued even). This is a win-win solution.

Never Fight Alone” – Sunspear Creed
There, it’s dead and it’s never coming back!” – Famous last words

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Posted by: Star Ace.5207

Star Ace.5207

Flissy, your problem is so easily solved: “LF more, no MF gear please” Done. No need for the thread, even.

There’s nothing wrong with MF gear-there is, however, with forcing your playstyle on others. Since MF gears don’t force you to use whichever gear you use, while you should force them not to use what they like?

I don’t use MF gear most of the time-only at Orr with my Guardian (she has a full set with full Wayferer’s Trinkets/Exquisite Opal Orbs), and perhaps many other of the game maps since there’s not that much to lose, but I do hate MF gear playstyle too FOR MYSELF, so I avoid it for Dungeons, etc. My other level 80s do not have MF gear at all (my Warrior has the Syzygy with Magic find Infusion and the Karka Ancient Shell with a Ruby Jewel.) HOWEVER, I have no right to tell people they can’t use whatever they want if they know how to play with their gear choices, much less judge their skill based on their gear.

TBH, there’s bound to be more bad player’s with Berserker’s not because the gear is bad, but because many have just copied and pasted their Warriors ala CoF 1, and have little experience elsewhere. Many players assume the “zerk” gear makes them “leet”… when in fact experience and practice is what makes you good at the game, not your gear choices.

And on the selfish issue, I hope you see the irony in saying-“people are being selifh with MF gear because they do not allow me to finish my Dungeon run ASAP to fulfill MY OWN AGENDA”-getting things done fast is your personal, selfish motive, so you are not being “altruistic” at all by forcing others to wear the gear you prefer. And again, this imagined “selfishness” problem disappears once you group with like-minded individuals, rather than trying to force every player to play with the gear you want.

In short, Mirta was right when she said the following:

“It’s selfish to care about what others wear”

Why is it our business, and how is it bad for the game, especially since you can circumvent this “issue” by avoiding players with MF gear? No need to tell others that MF gear is bad-I don’t tell you that Berserker’s gear is bad because you are way more fragile employing it, right? It works for you-and other stuff works for other people too.

No offense, and feel free to disagree-I won’t reply further because it would be an argument for its own sake, going in circles forever, and none will be convinced.

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Posted by: justkoh.4073

justkoh.4073

Very much agree with the TS.

MF is a ‘selfish’ trait that doesn’t contribute to the team. I think A-net should make it contribute to the team and so I agree with TS’s suggestions as well.

I won’t care about what you wear as long as it doesn’t drag me down. Some classes may need Vitality and Toughness items to aid in their own survival and that is fine to me; your survival is good for the group. But if you choose to forgo that survival option, please contribute to offense; it doesn’t mean you’re free to go MF. If you’re downed, someone still has to rez you.

In reply to What happened to “everyone is allowed to play the way that they want”, I’d say that if you’re solo, no one cares; you sacrifice offensive or defensive capabilities to your own detriment. If you’re playing with others, I think they have a right to know (again, the suggestion to have an aura in the presence of %MF gear and the level of %MF displayed is a good idea). IMO, MF on armor, weapon or accessories s is akin to leeching.

Would I prefer that the slot taken by a MF user is empty? No. I’d never say I wouldn’t take you on even if you were the last player on Earth. But if I had any other choice, I would drop the MF user like a hot potato.

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Posted by: Infernia.9847

Infernia.9847

I really hope Anet considers a modification to magic find and its application.

I believe it would make everyone a lot happier if magic find was applied to gear like agony resistance now is.
Where the person wanting magic find, infused their gear with it instead of wasting a stat. The only down side to this would be for those running fractals that need agony resistance on their gear.

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Posted by: Oranisagu.3706

Oranisagu.3706

+1, mf is my main gripe with the stat combinations in this game, especially in dungeon groups. it has to be reworked in a way that it’s either an addition to your gear (like infusions) or benefits all players around (not just in groups, cursed shore events are suffering from mf as well). if they can’t do that, we need to know if someone is wearing mf.

@Star Ace: as you pointed out, you can post ‘lfg no mf’. yes you can, but this attracts mf players immensely. I get more pure-mf players with such posts than without.
why? I don’t know, I can only assume it has to do with the players mentality. a mf player probably has less scruples leeching off a group than someone who tries to bring the most to a group. thus some mf players could also have less scruples lying about their gear than other players.
I know you’re a strong opponent of berserker gear, as you’ve often stated before, but you always seem to compare the effects of a bad player wearing zerker gear with a good player wearing something else. of course the good player is better than a bad player, gear has nothing to do with it. give me PVT gear and I’m a lot less useful than in my zerker gear. my warri still wears knights/valk/zerker stuff, because he’s just too squishy in extended fights, but I’ve been replacing a few pieces from a full knights set because the additional toughness wasn’t necessary anymore.

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Posted by: Drucilla.3158

Drucilla.3158

I use MF during Cursed Shore events. It’s the only way I make gold in game, so I maximize my chances. During dungeon runs, I switch to my named set as it has stats that maximize my damage. My belief is that while doing events, I’m essentially playing solo, but in a dungeon group, I need to perform to my best ability and that means min-maxing my stats.

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Posted by: Dante.1508

Dante.1508

I would personally prefer a slot where we can add a MF amulet like those in SPvP that say comes in 50% 100% 150% 200% 250% 300% etc so we could slot it in and not affect our gears or our fellow team mates..

Better still i’d love a slot for Minipets to add but Minipets get a passive MF stat as above while they are out… Blue mini 100% Green 150% Rare 200% Exotic 250% etc

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Posted by: Infernia.9847

Infernia.9847

@Dante – I think your idea would be a lot easier than the Magic Find Infusion idea. A special amulet with percentage range from 50-300 is a great idea. But only if they do away with the MF gear or else people will still just get that and run with the gear to maximize the percentage.

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Posted by: ColinJohanson

ColinJohanson

Game Director

Next

Some fun ideas in here, we’re also actively discussing ways on how we’d best like to alleviate having to make players choose between having better stats, or using magic find. It’s not a choice that’s great for game play and there isn’t really anything that fun about it, even more so when group composition is taken into account. Ideally we’d also like to keep the ability to slowly build your magic find over time, but doing this at the cost of using better stats isn’t the right way to do that.

No ETA on any changes here, just want to point out we agree there is an issue here that goes against what we want Gw2 to be, and is something we want to address.

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Posted by: Sorin.4310

Sorin.4310

Some fun ideas in here, we’re also actively discussing ways on how we’d best like to alleviate having to make players choose between having better stats, or using magic find. It’s not a choice that’s great for game play and there isn’t really anything that fun about it, even more so when group composition is taken into account. Ideally we’d also like to keep the ability to slowly build your magic find over time, but doing this at the cost of using better stats isn’t the right way to do that.

No ETA on any changes here, just want to point out we agree there is an issue here that goes against what we want Gw2 to be, and is something we want to address.

Thanks for the answer Colin! It’s nice to know it’s on your guys’ minds. However, I feel a lot of the Anet responses are in this same category, where the topic is something to address in the future. So what is being addressed in the present? Will there be a blog post coming soon about the next big things in GW2, now that Flame and Frost has concluded (almost).

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Posted by: tigirius.9014

tigirius.9014

the whole idea of MF is bad because not using MF means i don’t get the best chances

But it pigeonholes me into using MF for almost everything i do, so i will never use the set that i actually want to use.

reminds me of Diablo2 where MF was everything, so i end up playing the game with MF as my main set. which is dumb to be honest.

I tend to agree, and yet another form of leetism isn’t going to solve this issue, the Devs need to fix MF gear so that it works properly. If it’s exotic it needs three major ability score enhancements and MF on it, right now it’s weaksauce.

toughness/power/prec
touchness/vit/cond

come to mind immediately on what these sets need because frankly with DR and with the loot still nerfed in many a zone we’re not going to see it go away anytime soon.

sees colin’s post ahh good they are listening!

We need CDIs for Engineers and for the TPcentric status of this game.

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Posted by: Einlanzer.1627

Einlanzer.1627

Some fun ideas in here, we’re also actively discussing ways on how we’d best like to alleviate having to make players choose between having better stats, or using magic find. It’s not a choice that’s great for game play and there isn’t really anything that fun about it, even more so when group composition is taken into account. Ideally we’d also like to keep the ability to slowly build your magic find over time, but doing this at the cost of using better stats isn’t the right way to do that.

No ETA on any changes here, just want to point out we agree there is an issue here that goes against what we want Gw2 to be, and is something we want to address.

I think it’s a neat, flavorful stat and I don’t feel pigeon holed into using it – I enjoy it as an option.

The only thing it needs is to contribute to a party rather than being purely selfish. Just apply it to parties as an average rather than a cumulative amount so that it carries equal weight to every other stat. Don’t overthink it – that’s seriously all it needs.

(edited by Einlanzer.1627)

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Posted by: ColinJohanson

Previous

ColinJohanson

Game Director

Thanks for the answer Colin! It’s nice to know it’s on your guys’ minds. However, I feel a lot of the Anet responses are in this same category, where the topic is something to address in the future. So what is being addressed in the present? Will there be a blog post coming soon about the next big things in GW2, now that Flame and Frost has concluded (almost).

For a high level summary of the stuff we’re working on and where we’re headed (some of this is now complete, a lot still in progress) you can check out this blog post talking about our high level direction:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/colin-johanson-on-guild-wars-2-in-the-months-ahead/

For the more immediate details, we’ll be releasing more info about our first May update here shortly. And absolutely yes, we’ll be doing some more high level blog posts about the direction of the game as well to make sure you all have a clear picture of where Gw2 is heading and can give additional feedback/comments =)

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Posted by: Sorin.4310

Sorin.4310

Awesome. Thanks, Colin!

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Posted by: munkiman.3068

munkiman.3068

Some fun ideas in here, we’re also actively discussing ways on how we’d best like to alleviate having to make players choose between having better stats, or using magic find. It’s not a choice that’s great for game play and there isn’t really anything that fun about it, even more so when group composition is taken into account. Ideally we’d also like to keep the ability to slowly build your magic find over time, but doing this at the cost of using better stats isn’t the right way to do that.

No ETA on any changes here, just want to point out we agree there is an issue here that goes against what we want Gw2 to be, and is something we want to address.

There’s been some suggestions on making it a group effort (similar to diablo) and could work like the current MF buff from boosters or food. If you run a booster it triggers a party wide MF @ say 10 or 20% which builds on vet or champ kills. Basically using the already given boosters a purpose which simply triggers a mf system. When the boost runs out it resets, but if another player pops one before the group wide runs out, it stays. Death could be another reset mechanic too.

[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website

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Posted by: Deamhan.9538

Deamhan.9538

Some fun ideas in here, we’re also actively discussing ways on how we’d best like to alleviate having to make players choose between having better stats, or using magic find. It’s not a choice that’s great for game play and there isn’t really anything that fun about it, even more so when group composition is taken into account. Ideally we’d also like to keep the ability to slowly build your magic find over time, but doing this at the cost of using better stats isn’t the right way to do that.

No ETA on any changes here, just want to point out we agree there is an issue here that goes against what we want Gw2 to be, and is something we want to address.

Here’s an idea. Remove MF from the game and increase drop rates a bit. There, done. Everyone now has a small MF increase and nobody has to sacrifice anything to get it.

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Posted by: Meglobob.8620

Meglobob.8620

What % MF would I need to get glacial lodestones off ice elementals/ice imps and molten lodestones off fire elementals/fire imps (if fire imps exist…not so sure?), assume I just want 1 per hour?

I have had 140% MF and 10 hours later plus 1200 dead ice elementals/ice imps later, still no glacial lodestones…

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Posted by: Mif.3471

Mif.3471

For the more immediate details, we’ll be releasing more info about our first May update here shortly.

Define “shortly” :P

Tarnished Coast | Best cookies in all of Tyria

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Posted by: Meglobob.8620

Meglobob.8620

For the more immediate details, we’ll be releasing more info about our first May update here shortly.

Define “shortly” :P

Probably after the 12th May?