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Posted by: Fernling.1729

Fernling.1729

They would be able to reward unique skins that are only obtainable through raids. That alone would be enough for a lot of people to run through these raids. That is also assuming people wouldn’t just run through them with friends for the fun of it.

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Posted by: DreamyAbaddon.3265

DreamyAbaddon.3265

The more players who help out the easier the content is since you can make more mistakes.

The less players the more challenging it is because you can make less mistakes. That’s why 5 man group dungeons is more challenging.

GW2’s Combat is skill based, and when you get more than 5 people dungeon it becomes a zerg fest which ruins the fun of it.

Raids dont belong to GW2….

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Posted by: Aenesthesia.1697

Aenesthesia.1697

2. they dont need to hire a raid content designer to make more open world afk 1111111 events. they can create those events already.

But probably they don’t want to make open world afk 1111, and instead they want to make (some of) the open world encounters as complex as those of typical mmo raids.

3. there is literally no challenging content in gw2 and instanced raid content would be a good way to introduce it.

well, arah is kind of challenging, and there is the wurm, and there was the marionette. They said the marionette was some kind of guinea pig for the future of group content.

4. anet has never, NEVER in their history, called open world content “raids”. never.

ok, but if they published they werehiring an ‘open world content designer’ they wouldn’t attract the designers they want.

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Posted by: Aenesthesia.1697

Aenesthesia.1697

What is Raid exactly? noob here..

Raids are dungeons made for more people than you’d typically be able to party with. They are generally harder than normal dungeons and require far more people and coordination. Many MMOs are centered around raids.

As time progresses, the number of people that make a raid is less and less. In the old EQ days raids were 75 man. In vanilla WoW they were 40-man, and later became 20 main. Rift even had 10 man raids.

The bottom line is they’re supposed to be challenging, instanced content done with more people than a standard party.

ahhh it’s kinda Dungeon only with more people XD

they’re also way longer with a weekly ID (since you need more days to complete a raid) , way harder and with more complex tactics, no idea how a raid would work on gw2 anyway cuz the lack of the trinity and since most of the bosses get facetanked.

takes days?? O_O hmm example we raid 5pm to 10pm we reach 50% so we get out the raid. Then we can roam around other areas then get back to where we left?

usually people raid for no more than 2 hours a day. The drawback is you have to be a part of a group of organised people, who play at the same time everyday. This for me kills part of the fun. You can leave the raid and return at your convenience, progress is saved only after you kill a boss. There can be from 1 to more than 10 bosses in a raid, and each encounter may take up to 10 minutes (some even more). I really miss wow raids, but i don’t miss playing every single day at the same hour regardless what.

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Posted by: NoTrigger.8396

NoTrigger.8396

GW2’s Combat is skill based, and when you get more than 5 people dungeon it becomes a zerg fest which ruins the fun of it.

when you are a very uncreative designer/dev, this is correct.
and at the moment the combat system is indeed skill based. and this skill is the 1 on your keyboard.

tbh it wouldnt be that hard to make challenging 20 man instances that dont end up being a zerg fest. it comes down to how you design the content.

Raids dont belong to GW2….

this sounds more like “i dont want raids”.

But probably they don’t want to make open world afk 1111, and instead they want to make (some of) the open world encounters as complex as those of typical mmo raids.

which is impossible. open world content is open world content because everyone can participate, everyone can succeed no matter how good you play.
you cant make open world content as complex as good raid content.
the level of complexity and difficulty you need to deliver good and organized guilds a fun and challenging experience with high replayablity is something you cant put into the open world.

and there is the wurm, and there was the marionette.

i dont understand how both events are challenging. just look at the wurm. the wurm is based on 1 + 1 = 2 or run from A to B. its not complex at all. the only challenge there is the chat between the commanders to tell each other when they are ready.

the marionette could be reworked into something cool. but its probably the only encounter that would be worth it.

[qT] Quantify

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Posted by: Echou.1923

Echou.1923

But making it just another WoW clone

It’s already a WoW clone so no worries there.

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Posted by: Zaklex.6308

Zaklex.6308

If anyone would bother to read the CDI for Guilds and/or Guild Halls, “Guild Raids” have been mentioned at least 3 times that I know of(and no, I’m not going to look up the posts and link them), with that being said. I’d almost bet than any “raid” content that MIGHT be added to GW2 will be for Guilds to access through a Guild Hall and not accessible to everyone that just plays the PvE world. That’s my nickels worth.

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Posted by: DreamyAbaddon.3265

DreamyAbaddon.3265

GW2’s Combat is skill based, and when you get more than 5 people dungeon it becomes a zerg fest which ruins the fun of it.

when you are a very uncreative designer/dev, this is correct.
and at the moment the combat system is indeed skill based. and this skill is the 1 on your keyboard.

tbh it wouldnt be that hard to make challenging 20 man instances that dont end up being a zerg fest. it comes down to how you design the content.

Raids dont belong to GW2….

this sounds more like “i dont want raids”.

But probably they don’t want to make open world afk 1111, and instead they want to make (some of) the open world encounters as complex as those of typical mmo raids.

which is impossible. open world content is open world content because everyone can participate, everyone can succeed no matter how good you play.
you cant make open world content as complex as good raid content.
the level of complexity and difficulty you need to deliver good and organized guilds a fun and challenging experience with high replayablity is something you cant put into the open world.

and there is the wurm, and there was the marionette.

i dont understand how both events are challenging. just look at the wurm. the wurm is based on 1 + 1 = 2 or run from A to B. its not complex at all. the only challenge there is the chat between the commanders to tell each other when they are ready.

the marionette could be reworked into something cool. but its probably the only encounter that would be worth it.

In other MMOs it makes sense to have Raids because the combat is Gear based not skill based. DPS role just does damage. Tank Role just holds agro and Healer roles just heal and buff.

Combat based on Roles require no skills.
Wana be a good DPS Role? Get better DPS gear.
Wana be a Good Tank? Get better Tank Gear.
Wana be a good Healer? Get better Mana or Healing gear!

In a 20man raid you mindlessness play your role and it becomes complex because you have to coordinate your roles with others and each raid takes forever to complete.

GW2’s Skill based combat requires all players to take Control, Support themselves and contribute dealing damage to kill enemies while moving and dodging from incoming attacks. With a Skill based combat system that GW2 is… Having raids encourages zergs which breaks skill based concept entirely.

By having more people participating, it becomes easier and therefore more mistakes and less skillful players can succeed in such events. With less players, you can only make less mistakes before failure. Raids just dont work with how the combat in GW2 is designed in mind. Everyone can suddenly just spam Control skills or Damage skills or Support skills… This is why ArenaNet created champs to be immuned to certain control effects so the Champion doesnt get abused with Knockback skills being spammed by players and such. It’s stupid.

Challenging content should require 3 player dungeon max… So many crazy possibilities can be done with 3-5 player max dungeons. So much pressure could be made for hardcore players with skills to take down! No Bosses should be immune to control effects since 3-5 players isn’t a lot to abuse those skill effects.

Yes I dont want raids… Because it just doesnt work for this game.
I want challenge…

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Posted by: JackDaniels.1697

JackDaniels.1697

If it is open world raids, they should introduce new world bosses, but also revamp some of the current big bosses like The Shatterer, etc. Because as great as it would be to have new content like that, you can’t forget about the old content either.

“I got a fever! And the only prescription, is more COWBELL!”

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Posted by: NoTrigger.8396

NoTrigger.8396

………

wildstar has the same combat system and raids work there too. it has a trinity yeah. but its just a question how you tune the boss fights.
saying “raids dont work with gw2 combat system” is simply wrong.

just an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HisRpzL24B8

the encounter in wildstar:
phase 1:
- dont get it by lasers, pretty obvious
- the boss teleports behind one of the outer 6 pillars at the beginning of the fight and then every minute, until you push him to 75% hp. you have to interrupt the boss behind the pillar to make him teleport back to the middle. as long as you dont interrupt him, an aoe in the middle of the room will get bigger and bigger until everyone dies. the players behind the pillars get a dot. aoe and dot will disappear once the boss is interrupted.

phase 2:
- random aoes around the inner pillars
- smaller aoes
- big aoe:
you can hide behind 2-3 specific pillars. if you dont do that, the aoe will oneshot you.
- tank swap:
the tank with aggro gets hit with massive damage. the second tank needs to interrupt the boss. if you dont interrupt, the boss heals himself for 700k hp.
- Eggs:
one random player gets a corruption debuff and will be transformed into an egg.
to free the corrupted player, another player has to interrupt the egg. if you dont do that, the player in the egg will die and every other player will die after a short amount of time because of incoming damage. the eggs deal pulsating damage.
one minute later the player who interrupted the egg will get the corruption debuff too.
that means 1 egg -> 1 min -> 2 eggs -> 1 min -> 4 eggs -> 1 min -> 8 eggs -> 1 min -> if the boss isnt dead yet, game over. (basically the enrage timer)
if one player who is affected by the corruption debuff dies, the debuff will be carried over to another random player (domino effect, you wont stop this, game over).
if one player who is affected by the corruption debuff interrupts an egg, the corrupted player will immediately die and the domino effect will begin (see above, same counts if a player who is not affected by the corruption debuff interrupts 2 eggs).
the by the corruption debuff affected players need to get in set positions every time the egg transformation happens, otherwise its just too much chaos. you typically use cardinal directions for this.
- the corruption debuff:
your outgoing damage is buffed by 200%. you have a dot dealing damage to you until the fight is over.

now tell me why it wouldnt be possible to have raid boss fights like this in gw2!?
you can tune the entire fight so that players have to use every possible buff (especially buffs and conditions that nobody is using in PvE at the moment) to keep each other alive and work together. use waterfields to heal each other and regeneration buffs, use banner of tactics, banner of defense and stuff like that to reduce the incoming damage (nobody cares about that kitten at the moment).
make the eggs so that they have a specific amount of health and players have to kill them instead of interrupting them.
make the tank swap so 20 players have to use CC to interrupt the boss or the boss will heal himself for 1000000 hp and remove the massive damage to the tank (because we dont have tanks).
make the corruption debuff dot deal a well tuned amount of damage. so players can heal each other with their given tools in gw2.

there are so many more possibilites with the gw2 combat system compared to wildstars action/skill based trinity combat system or traditional combat systems, its simply wrong to say “raids dont work in gw2 because of the combat system”.

its just a question of how you design and tune the content.

and encounter like this would open up ALOT more build possibilites and make necros necessary in PvE.

[qT] Quantify

(edited by NoTrigger.8396)

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Posted by: TheRiverBlues.2607

TheRiverBlues.2607

I wouldn’t dismiss the raid content so soon, could have potential. Love how people complain about it even though I know secretly you just want this to be like WoW (but better)

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Posted by: Ferever.7014

Ferever.7014

I wouldn’t dismiss the raid content so soon, could have potential. Love how people complain about it even though I know secretly you just want this to be like WoW (but better)

Honestly i didn’t think about it til you said this. Yea I do want this to be like WoW only because WoW made things work really well that’s why people call games wow clones. If GW2 can make raids better then yea I can see it. Honestly I don’t see raids as spamming 11111 if designed correctly. I’m sure they can make maps where you have to have positioning , people to to interrupts , Supports using fields for healing , might and etc. Also since no one brought it up will they rework the condition cap just in case?

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Posted by: Bri.8354

Bri.8354

I really hope these raids won’t use the low quality design seen in every large scale encounter thus far. They need to stop with the “artificial” forms of difficulty and mechanics and focus more on the core combat mechanics in these fights.

To go over some of the issues:

  • Not one large scale boss that requires the group to have a strong knowledge of combat mechanics to succeed.
  • Few of the objectives or mechanics in these fights expect the players to utilize their base profession skills to overcome the mechanic, instead they revolve around things like turrets and picked up items.
  • Instead of failing through the combat itself with the entire group getting wiped out, loss conditions are instead based around boss timers, if you have enough players to deal enough damage in time, and how well the group preforms in the artificial coordination mechanics.

(edited by Bri.8354)

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Posted by: VodCom.6924

VodCom.6924

i dont understand how both events are challenging. just look at the wurm. the wurm is based on 1 + 1 = 2 or run from A to B. its not complex at all. the only challenge there is the chat between the commanders to tell each other when they are ready.

You obviously speak without knowing anything. Do the wurm with gw2community and you’ll see how wrong you are.

The wurm is a raid in the open world. Anet is hiring a raid designer in order to have more megabosses ideas and speed up the creation process. I doubt there is anything to add.

10-men insanced raids will be broken even faster than dungeons. Look at what a party of 5 is already able to do in dungeons. Imagine the firepower of a party of 10 coordinated players. Anet is clearly not trying to build this type of content.

Known as Reegar Else, Linda Else, Xiana Else and Thorgall Breakstone

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Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Hi All,

Just wanted to let you know that we will be discussing raiding in the next phase of the Guild CDI. Feel free to carry on discussing here, and just wanted to let you know that i am reading this thread.

Chris

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Posted by: Fernling.1729

Fernling.1729

Hi All,

Just wanted to let you know that we will be discussing raiding in the next phase of the Guild CDI. Feel free to carry on discussing here, and just wanted to let you know that i am reading this thread.

Chris

The addition of raids will be awesome for GW2. Happy you guys are doing this.

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Posted by: xusa.4021

xusa.4021

I only ask: Don’t do a one path raid. Let multiple parties run different parts of the dungeon to make it more interesting :s

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Posted by: Gsjlink.4673

Gsjlink.4673

Thanks a bunch, Chris!

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Posted by: GOSU.9574

GOSU.9574

I only ask: Don’t do a one path raid. Let multiple parties run different parts of the dungeon to make it more interesting :s

This is an excellent suggestion, I also don’t want to see a “Us vs Big Boss” mode. There is enough of that in open world, for GW2 to have instanced raids that don’t follow the mold of other MMOs it should be more than “Us vs Big Boss”. There should be puzzles, conquests, objectives, obstacles, etc., that are periphery, some required in order for the raid to be successful, some optional.

Be sure to bring this up in the CDI.

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Posted by: Kulvar.1239

Kulvar.1239

If they make “raids”, I suggest to Arena.net to don’t make them with a fixed number of people. While doing them with friends or guild, it would be sad to let someone behind because “we can’t take more people”.

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Posted by: Gsjlink.4673

Gsjlink.4673

Agreed. Base plus is a better idea. Base should remain low, perhaps 5 or 10. A mix of content is nice too. Some raids can be sprawling labrynths, some can be your standard in and out onyxia type of thing. A mix is great. It’s also nice to have things open up after “beating” the main chunk of the dungeon. Something similar to post clockheart aetherblade, but improved. Perhaps other bosses and puzzles. Choice in how you progress is also nice, like boss/puzzle/challenge order.

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Posted by: NoTrigger.8396

NoTrigger.8396

i dont understand how both events are challenging. just look at the wurm. the wurm is based on 1 + 1 = 2 or run from A to B. its not complex at all. the only challenge there is the chat between the commanders to tell each other when they are ready.

You obviously speak without knowing anything. Do the wurm with gw2community and you’ll see how wrong you are.

The wurm is a raid in the open world. Anet is hiring a raid designer in order to have more megabosses ideas and speed up the creation process. I doubt there is anything to add.

10-men insanced raids will be broken even faster than dungeons. Look at what a party of 5 is already able to do in dungeons. Imagine the firepower of a party of 10 coordinated players. Anet is clearly not trying to build this type of content.

just for your info, i was part of desolations world first wurm kill.
i can only tell you one thing that is certain.
if the wurm was instanced, good guilds would have killed it within a few hours for the first time.
and yes, as one of the best PvE players in this game i dont know anything.

there is a very big, like really big, difference between organized raiding guilds + raid content and open world content that is made so everyone can succeed.

system demons in datascape in wildstar is a good raid boss. and the world first only took 41 days. 41 days of wiping with a guild full of experienced raider, who are sitting in teamspeak and know exactly what they are doing.
now compare that to tequatl and the wurm.

running in circles and filling stuff with colors, or picking up a harpoon gun to shoot the wurm and deal dps from time to time is far from challenging and complex.
im not saying the open world content is bad. its good for what it was meant to be. but it wouldnt be any challenge if it was instanced.
open world events aka just jump in and join the people who are fighting it, are never going to be complex enough for guilds with top communication and very smart and skilled players.

again i dont think arenanet needs to hire a raid content designer for open world events, because they can create those events already and they are already good at creating those events.
and the one thing gw2 is missing is content for organized guilds, challenging content.

this is a complex and challenging raid encounter.
while it looks fairly simple in the video, it would take pages to explain whats really going on, especially the stuff that you dont see.
and i simply miss moments like at the end of the video in gw2. i miss screaming and cheering in teamspeak when you have wiped for days/weeks and finally get your world first kill.

[qT] Quantify

(edited by NoTrigger.8396)

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Posted by: xusa.4021

xusa.4021

I feel like raids shouldn’t be dungeons with more players, like it is in WoW. It sucks, it’s completely unimersive, etc etc.

My idea is just that, for example, if it is a 15-man raid, it should be centered in 3 parties which will work alone for a phase, meet up next for a puzzle challenge and then fight the boss. Or something like this. Obviously this shouldn’t be a fixed thing, but this would be a starting model. GW2 is all about movement, platforming, strategic movements etc. We don’t want a stack and spank, we want to use our dodges, our jumps, our brains. I think nobody will be kittened if such raids would take longer to ship if it was for the sake of fixing stacking and kitten. There is a reason why Tequatl is the best PvE content GW2 have, and it’s not because it’s easy to afk in or because it’s easily soloable.

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Posted by: Donari.5237

Donari.5237

While getting a lot of discussion going now is grand, it appears from Chris’ comment above that there will be a CDI on Guild Raids once the current Guild Halls one wraps up. So maybe in a week or two? Be prepared to repeat yourselves in that thread, preferably in the proposal format that’s been used in QoL/Logistics and Guild Halls. That will be the best place to make sure your ideas are heard.

For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure I’ll have some ideas and comments to make myself once the focused discussion is going. I do love large-scale teamwork at times.

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Posted by: Bearhugger.4326

Bearhugger.4326

I might be biased because I have raided for years in World of Warcraft so obviously that’s the model I’m most familiar with, but I don’t really see how raids would work in GW2 without a strong redesign of party mechanics. Are we seriously going to get a 40-man raid with 40 all-berserker DPS focused players?

As someone who likes strong defensive play and almost always plays tanky characters like knights and paladins in games that allow me to, I’m not going to have any interest in GW2 raids if they are like GW2 dungeons and force me to go full damage to pull my weight.

Before launch the dungeon blog said that they were dumping the traditional tank/damage/healer role structure for something much more flexible they called control/damage/support. Not sure what happened that blog post and launch because it obviously turned out to be damage/damage/damage, but I hope the developers will work on fixing the problems with PvE party mechanics before thinking about implementing raids, otherwise I’m afraid it will just be terrible.

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Posted by: azurrei.5691

azurrei.5691

It’s cool that Arena Net is finally considering some larger group instance content, which is sorely lacking. However, it would also be nice to get some scaled versions of current dungeons meant for 1-3 people – some of us like the idea of dungeons, but prefer to do them solo or with a friend or two (or at the very least, add the reward tracks to open world content in addition to sPvP.) If a game that I’ve never heard of before named Archlord 2 can do it, so can Arena Net Oh, and in regards to “raids,” flexible group size should be a feature from day 1.

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Posted by: NoTrigger.8396

NoTrigger.8396

@bearhugger the defense and utlity a player can bring comes from your traits, weapons and utlity skills in gw2.
its not damage, damage, damage. every optimal PvE build gives up damage in order to have more utility and stuff like that.

[qT] Quantify

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Posted by: Exxcalibur.6203

Exxcalibur.6203

‘The dichotomies of raiding’

Raiding translates to:

(-)

Horrendous time sinks
Two tier player culture of ‘haves’ and ‘have nots’
Elitism
Divisive power structures and player politics within guilds
A narky culture of self obsessed gamers

(+)
Greater player commitment
Time sinks
Player collusion within existing guilds and a deeper more mutually dependent guild culture

As a player with numerous real life commitments, who is not in need of a game to replace the vacuity of my life, I have no need for time sinks. But I can’t imagine players like me dominate the game.

For me, raids are the worst of WoW, so take from that what you will.

However, more Raids’/events like the Marionette would be great.

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Posted by: Squee Squashington.5189

Squee Squashington.5189

Horrendous time sinks
Two tier player culture of ‘haves’ and ‘have nots’
Elitism
Divisive power structures and player politics within guilds
A narky culture of self obsessed gamers

Because these don’t already exist…

For me, raids are the worst of WoW, so take from that what you will.

However, more Raids’/events like the Marionette would be great.

This.
Based on the attention given to dungeons over the past two years, I’m not going to get my hopes up.

Legendary Defender of Casuals

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Posted by: hydeaut.1758

hydeaut.1758

I´m not sure if I want raids but there are certainly a few things to overcome:

- rewards: must be worth it but should not introduce any more power creep. Would skins be sufficient?

- no trinity: I probably wouldn´t want one, though this will make raid-design a lot harder (or limiting?)

- class-balance: every class should be equally wanted – which is already not the case in dungeons

- condition-cap

- GW2 graphic engine: graphical effects currently are a TON to much and downtuning options much to limited; a raid won´t work if you can´t even see the boss

There are a ton of things which can go wrong, so be careful what you wish because in the end it might go like the trait-hunt: sounds nice in advance but some untold details could turn it into a bad thing (testservers anyone?).

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Posted by: Relshdan.6854

Relshdan.6854

my two favorite bits of content have been Aetherblade Retreat dungeon (mainly for the rotating laser boss room) and Marionette (due to its multi-scale battles and the actual need to depend on others made victory sweeter).

some amalgamation of these two brilliant pieces of content would be ideal "raid " content ……the fact it would be tied to guild missions if fine….so long as smaller guilds can reasonably unlock them…..and/or guilds can invite non-members to join in.

Chaos Organ (Ele), Pistol Opera (Thief), Modular Man (Eng)
MARA (EU) Gunnar’s Hold

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Posted by: Relshdan.6854

Relshdan.6854

I´m not sure if I want raids but there are certainly a few things to overcome:

- rewards: must be worth it but should not introduce any more power creep. Would skins be sufficient?.

depending on the length it takes to do in a well run coordinated effort, i think guaranteed tokens that worked toward unique account-bound skins (like in dungeons but would require much less), along with a beefed up version of guild event rewards (maybe 5 commendations +5 to 7g and a GOOD loot chest w/ chance at unique skin or ascended gear w/ guaranteed rares…no green/blues), would be sufficient.

Chaos Organ (Ele), Pistol Opera (Thief), Modular Man (Eng)
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Posted by: daimasei.4091

daimasei.4091

Because the last game to focus on raids is doing great… oh wait!

Well at least the big guilds are going strong… oh wait!

OK, nvm.

Anyhow, if they introduce raids I will leave this game. I can’t event do teq or the wurm because people are beyond stupid so more “sorry, you can do this unless you find 100 players with an IQ above 0” is a total nope for me.

Why fix the Necromancer for free when we can charge $$$ for the Revenant
-ArenaNet

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Posted by: Squee Squashington.5189

Squee Squashington.5189

condition-cap

Ahahahhahahahha.

Expectation:
1.) Mechanics – Bugs involving pathing and fight mechanics will be fixed. If designers do not overshoot encounter difficulty to begin with, expect immediate buffs. Condition cap will not be fixed nor will conditions effect any non-moving entities (tendrils, prisons, doors/walls, etc).

2.) “Tryhard design”
— A.) Multiple fights will be dps dependant. So any players with condition, hybrid, support or bunker builds will be SoL.
—B.) Dodge or die mechanics will almost certainly be included, thus discouraging, or eventually alienating, new or less hardcore players from content.

3.) Rewards – Time sink. Don’t expect them to not take weeks to acquire. Don’t expect any of them that involve crafting to involve a proportionate amount of required materials.

So what are we left with? Instanced world boss zergs? (5k+ AP, zerkers only plz)

Legendary Defender of Casuals

(edited by Squee Squashington.5189)

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Posted by: Davey.7029

Davey.7029

No raids please, first make every profession useful for dungeons and fractals, half of the professions are NOT WANTED for some content and people are forced to play a certain profession just to try parts of the game! Raids would be the same crap…

Every profession is useful for dungeons and fractals. If you’re playing a specific profession just so others will accept you in their group, you shouldn’t. Every class is capable of doing the high level fractals, and yes, even ranger (now it’s actually a lot easier with changes to signets). Those people are just stuck in the past with their guard + war combos. They probably don’t even read patch notes and don’t know about the recent profession changes.

Back on topic, I love the idea of raids, but I’m not sure what will come out of this. I love the Mai Trin boss fight, Legendary Clockeart, aswell the Thaumanova Anomaly and the two bosses from the Molten Aliance, so I hope we will get something similar, but in a more epic scale.

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Posted by: Ferever.7014

Ferever.7014

Hi All,

Just wanted to let you know that we will be discussing raiding in the next phase of the Guild CDI. Feel free to carry on discussing here, and just wanted to let you know that i am reading this thread.

Chris

Sounds pretty cool I’ll post some ideas in that CDI as well looking forward to brain storming with ya.

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Posted by: bewhatever.2390

bewhatever.2390

‘The dichotomies of raiding’

Raiding translates to:

(-)

Horrendous time sinks
Two tier player culture of ‘haves’ and ‘have nots’
Elitism
Divisive power structures and player politics within guilds
A narky culture of self obsessed gamers

(+)
Greater player commitment
Time sinks
Player collusion within existing guilds and a deeper more mutually dependent guild culture

As a player with numerous real life commitments, who is not in need of a game to replace the vacuity of my life, I have no need for time sinks. But I can’t imagine players like me dominate the game.

For me, raids are the worst of WoW, so take from that what you will.

However, more Raids’/events like the Marionette would be great.

I don’t think GW2 can import WoW’s raiding paradigm.

The haves and have nots would not only wreck the community (remembering that GW2 drew not just from GW1 but also from WoW players who wanted something different — making GW2 more like WoW would just drive those players away), but also would distort WvW balance. Remember the textbook mistake in game design, where the raid drops the hammer of doom — which is needed to defeat the raid boss — but when that hammer is used in WvWvW it becomes an I-win button?

I think GW2 has a healthy and inclusive paradigm for outdoor raiding (save a few encounters where I dissent with designs which are unlearnable, hence once the community has learned and practiced the encounter a new player is inherently a detriment to the success of the raid, so the design leads to newcomers being driven off rather than included).

Would encourage the development team to build on this heritage, rather than trying to import fixed player count, designed to the edge so 25 people have to each execute optimal rotations precisely for 10 minutes straight, without a single slip up, to win the encounter. I did not choose to participate in this in WoW (save the occasional PUG run of a 1-boss hat dungeon), have not chosen to participate in such content in any of the four or five games I’ve played since WoW, came to GW2 in part because of its focus on outdoor inclusive content rather than exclusive instanced raiding, and will not participate in WoW-like content if it is added to GW2.

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Posted by: lordkrall.7241

lordkrall.7241

Because the last game to focus on raids is doing great… oh wait!

Well at least the big guilds are going strong… oh wait!

OK, nvm.

Anyhow, if they introduce raids I will leave this game. I can’t event do teq or the wurm because people are beyond stupid so more “sorry, you can do this unless you find 100 players with an IQ above 0” is a total nope for me.

It is a rather large leap from introducing raids to focus on raids though.

The game does have Dungeons. Does it focus on dungeons?
The game does have WvW. Does it focus on WvW?

So you will simply leave the game if they add something that you can’t do, even if it will not really effect your ability to play the rest of the game in any way or form?

Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square

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Posted by: munkiman.3068

munkiman.3068

If by raid, you mean the addition of Underworld or Fissure of Woe, then yes, i’m all for it. If by raid you mean what other games do with raid content, then no. I doubt we will ever see Wow or wildstar type raids.

Challenging dungeon content, with “sweet, sweet loot”…

[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website

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Posted by: bewhatever.2390

bewhatever.2390

Because the last game to focus on raids is doing great… oh wait!

Well at least the big guilds are going strong… oh wait!

OK, nvm.

Anyhow, if they introduce raids I will leave this game. I can’t event do teq or the wurm because people are beyond stupid so more “sorry, you can do this unless you find 100 players with an IQ above 0” is a total nope for me.

It is a rather large leap from introducing raids to focus on raids though.

The game does have Dungeons. Does it focus on dungeons?
The game does have WvW. Does it focus on WvW?

So you will simply leave the game if they add something that you can’t do, even if it will not really effect your ability to play the rest of the game in any way or form?

The raid content in, say, DAoC ToA was itemized such that it reset what competitive gear meant in RvR, forcing RvR players to PvE if they wanted competitive gear.

The raid content in RIFT progressed fast enough that it wasn’t possible for new players to “catch up”, so the devs created dailies which gave away tokens for next-raid-down gear. This had the side effect of trivializing both the 5-mans and all the outdoor content, after enough days had passed to accumulate enough tokens to get a full set of gear.

On the other hand, other devs have put in raiding just for the experience, without giving it a gear progression. I actually prefer this design, since it doesn’t trivialize the content I most care about. But then I choose not to do WoW style instanced raiding.

No, I won’t quit if raiding is added to the game. It’s already here, as outdoor raiding, just look at the Temple bosses, Tequatl, etc. But if fixed headcount, drill team, instanced raiding is added, you won’t find me there. I’m just worried that the devs face a really ugly choice between creating a raid game the raiders will find lacking, and one which as a side effect trivializes much of the rest of the game. May all their choices be good ones.

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Posted by: Veydar.5017

Veydar.5017

Kinda typical of this games’ community. The moment you mention raids everyone thinks “instanced, challenging” and starts wailing.
I enjoyed the Marionette fight. That being said, it wasn’t even remotely challenging for any half decent guild. Everyone who mentions world bosses as examples for raid content should really check out NoTriggers links. Open world raids that are meant to be done by PUGs have nothing to do with the kind of challenge and complexity that instanced high level raids in WildStar or FFXIV have to offer. This game has A LOT to offer for more casual gamers so I would really love it if they could give us just a bit of content for hardcore gamers. I’ve had this discussion a thousand times but no I don’t think everyone should be able to succeed at anything. You just got to know your limits and acknowledge the fact that others put in a lot of work and effort to be better at something.

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

No raids please, first make every profession useful for dungeons and fractals, half of the professions are NOT WANTED for some content and people are forced to play a certain profession just to try parts of the game! Raids would be the same crap…

Post FGS nerf and with the damage buff of rangers every class is wanted and useful, except necromancers. That class is objectively lacks behind in every possible aspect compared to others. Get your facts right.

ps: the average pug is still dumb, i hope the discussion will exclude as many as possible

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Posted by: Ouimette.5902

Ouimette.5902

Because the last game to focus on raids is doing great… oh wait!

Well at least the big guilds are going strong… oh wait!

OK, nvm.

Anyhow, if they introduce raids I will leave this game. I can’t event do teq or the wurm because people are beyond stupid so more “sorry, you can do this unless you find 100 players with an IQ above 0” is a total nope for me.

You shouldn’t feel forced to do either Teq or Wurm and if so. Maybe you should take a break from the game. Raids will not affect you at all if you do not make them do so. Just stay away from them when they arrive to the game and do what you’ve always done.

And open world raid is relying too much on individual skill while instanced raids in this game will most likely be better organized and eaiser to coordinate.

I wouldn’t put down my boot in the ground just yet. Wait and see what the future CDI has to offer before making the decision

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Posted by: Criminon.8432

Criminon.8432

As someone who has been playing MMOs for about 10 years I feel like I know what I expect with raids. I want to start this out by saying I WANT RAIDING in this game and I personally feel like I could benefit greatly from it. However I do have certain concerns about this topic and hopefully I’m able to address all of them and they get where they need to go.

The largest thing I feel is missing ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE from what I have seen in Guild Wars 2 is AI. Boss AI as well as overall enemy AI in this game is very lacking. I really don’t know if this is just due to game design but I feel like certain systems would have to be specifically crafted / redesigned for raiding to be truly effective.

Target of target is another important one here. I feel like I missed / wanted this the most while doing dungeons and I really hope we see it during raiding. Being able to tell what an enemy is looking at and being able to act accordingly is amazing.

I would say the one thing to take from other MMOs is to make raid bosses large enough to know where they are at all times; even if they are humans etc. This is kind of the part where gameplay > aesthetics.

I feel like most of the dungeons use one shot mechanics with dodging etc and I wonder if this is really the path you guys are wanting to take with raiding. While having the res downed people feature is nice I don’t think we should be getting tastes of it every 5 seconds while raiding.

While I completely support the idea of having people able to choose their role in dungeons its obvious that current content focuses on just dps, where as instead of having the holy trinity we have reduced it to one role and I don’t think that was the original intent, however limiting people on their skills and having one shot mechanics I feel it has pushed players into moslty very non defensive roles.

We see with bosses like Tequatl that we still have the need for roles, we have just masked what a role is by putting people on turrets, bumping up the total to 2, but still leaving out the tank. What we have next is a boss that doesn’t move or target anyone and just stands in place so the dps can attack it.

I really think it would be nice if we had people wanting to spec mostly heals or mostly defense for these raids. Of course they would still dps and make use of their 1-5s, they would be full support and we would actually have a use for the healing sigils etc.

I could probably go on all day about specific ideas for raid encounters but I think I’ll hold back.

TL;DR
Basically just give us more notifications about enemies, give them tight programming and make their attacks have strengths and weaknesses, don’t make them just do boring one shot mechanics, let players choose roles and make encounters fun, and I think it goes without saying to give these bosses good rewards.

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Posted by: Shiro Tegachii.5619

Shiro Tegachii.5619

i would like the raids to be like open world bosses but as a dungeon (teq and 3 head wurm) that u need to use tactic on every stage and boss and it wont take 10 min to complete it and that the entire group needs cordination and comunication and if all wipe its a fail and we can do it once a day

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Posted by: Rozbuska.5263

Rozbuska.5263

The reason why I so much love this game is.. No kittening raids here! Only acceptable are stuff like Wurm but WoW style raids? No thx.

Tekkit Mojo – Engineer
Tekkit’s Workshop

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

The largest thing I feel is missing ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE from what I have seen in Guild Wars 2 is AI. Boss AI as well as overall enemy AI in this game is very lacking. I really don’t know if this is just due to game design but I feel like certain systems would have to be specifically crafted / redesigned for raiding to be truly effective.

I keep hearing that without any proper feedback what the AI really lacks. Care to elaborate?

Target of target is another important one here. I feel like I missed / wanted this the most while doing dungeons and I really hope we see it during raiding. Being able to tell what an enemy is looking at and being able to act accordingly is amazing.

Watch the environment not the UI. That was the goal of GW2 combat since the beginning.

I would say the one thing to take from other MMOs is to make raid bosses large enough to know where they are at all times; even if they are humans etc. This is kind of the part where gameplay > aesthetics.

While bigger bosses would be generaly a better idea the main issue with the visibility of animations is the massive amount of particle effects (guardian F1 for example is totally overdone and pointless).

I feel like most of the dungeons use one shot mechanics with dodging etc and I wonder if this is really the path you guys are wanting to take with raiding. While having the res downed people feature is nice I don’t think we should be getting tastes of it every 5 seconds while raiding.

I keep hearing that without proper examples all the time. Care to elaborate? Of course if you are on a squishy ele it’s more of a problem than on a warrior.

While I completely support the idea of having people able to choose their role in dungeons its obvious that current content focuses on just dps[…]

And there goes your credibility. False statements and logical fallacies as always.

We see with bosses like Tequatl that we still have the need for roles, we have just masked what a role is by putting people on turrets, bumping up the total to 2, but still leaving out the tank. What we have next is a boss that doesn’t move or target anyone and just stands in place so the dps can attack it.

Defending teams. Just sayin’. Tanks are for removing the threat from the dps players so they can safely damage the enemy (omg it’s all about dps too, who would expect that?!)

I really think it would be nice if we had people wanting to spec mostly heals or mostly defense for these raids. Of course they would still dps and make use of their 1-5s, they would be full support and we would actually have a use for the healing sigils etc.

That can be done in whatever gear you have with proper gameplay. Combo fields and finishers are there for a reason as well other weapons too like guardian hammers for perma protection. But yeah, ignore everything again.

I could probably go on all day about specific ideas for raid encounters but I think I’ll hold back.

Thanks, you lack proper knowledge about the game anyway and you are emotionally biased as well.

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Posted by: Iavra.8510

Iavra.8510

As long as they are fully optional and not like dungeons where you need to do them so access certain runes, i’m fine…

Unlike dungeons it will be hard to find a zer..eeh enough people to do them if you don’t want to run with randoms.

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Posted by: daimasei.4091

daimasei.4091

It is a rather large leap from introducing raids to focus on raids though.

The game does have Dungeons. Does it focus on dungeons?
The game does have WvW. Does it focus on WvW?

So you will simply leave the game if they add something that you can’t do, even if it will not really effect your ability to play the rest of the game in any way or form?

Dungeons sucks, that’s why people only do those that are easy/fast to farm. And WvW is the same bored map repeated 3 times plus one map with more of the same.

If after 2 years waiting for them to fix the kitten bugs and make a proper profession balance, they will instead going to waste time and resources in another “nobody want to do unless it can be exploited in some kind of easy yet profitable farm” then, I have no business in this game anymore.

Why fix the Necromancer for free when we can charge $$$ for the Revenant
-ArenaNet

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Posted by: Thelgar.7214

Thelgar.7214

Because the last game to focus on raids is doing great… oh wait!

Well at least the big guilds are going strong… oh wait!

OK, nvm.

Anyhow, if they introduce raids I will leave this game. I can’t event do teq or the wurm because people are beyond stupid so more “sorry, you can do this unless you find 100 players with an IQ above 0” is a total nope for me.

You shouldn’t feel forced to do either Teq or Wurm and if so. Maybe you should take a break from the game. Raids will not affect you at all if you do not make them do so. Just stay away from them when they arrive to the game and do what you’ve always done.

And open world raid is relying too much on individual skill while instanced raids in this game will most likely be better organized and eaiser to coordinate.

I wouldn’t put down my boot in the ground just yet. Wait and see what the future CDI has to offer before making the decision

ArenaNet has shown they are more than willing to “encourage” people to play content they don’t want to play by making it the only way, or a much more efficient way, of obtaining something. And they seem to take pleasure in doing it in regard to content over which there is a strong split between those that want/like something and those that don’t want/dislike something. If raids are implemented, it is almost certain that something desirable to someone who dislikes raids will require raiding to get.