"What do we have to do to change this???"

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Posted by: BBilbo.9641

BBilbo.9641

“What do we have to do to change this???”

This is is the exact question I asked in on the forums in 2005 when SOE decided to change the product their customers were playing in the MMORPG Star Wars Galaxies. The forums were livid with criticism and rage from fans and players upset that the game was becoming something that the customers didn’t pay for, and defiantly didn’t want.

The Community support staff, bust doing damage control, took time out to respond to this topic I made. “We understand many players are not comfortable with the changes their seeing, but the truth is, the decisions have been made and this is happening.” I’m paraphrasing because at the time I didn’t have the foresight to save that comment.

Customers who pre-Ordered Trials of Obi-Won expansion felt that rug was essentially pulled out from under them when the game changed overnight from a open multi-world sandbox MMO into a painfully noticeable WoW-clone. A class action lawsuit was filed and customers who pre-ordered their expansion got their money back.

From there it was a downward spiral from mass player exodus, server merging, server closings, and finally On December 15, 2011 at 9:01 PM Pacific time, the servers of Star Wars Galaxies shut down.

This is a game design choice that John Smedley (president of SOE) still regrets

“With the NGE, I’m sorry about the mistake we made,” he told us. “We screwed up and didn’t listen to the fans when we should have, and it’s not a mistake we’re going to make again.”

And what was the mistake SOE made that Smedley is sorry for?

“The mistake was to not just think we know the right direction without bringing the fans into the mix,” he explained. “We made the cardinal sin of not listening, but assuming, and we were wrong.”

And in a Reddit Interview:

[reddit] Q: Can you finally come clean about the decisions that were made regarding SWG? Mainly the CU and NGE?

[Smedley] A: [S]ure. Stupid decisions. Complete and utter fail and I am very sorry.

Fast forward to November, 2012. It’s been only 3 months after players have paid for Guild wars 2. We start to see evidence that this game is becoming something that we didn’t pay for, didn’t want, and certainly was promised NOT to happen.


From Guild Wars 2 Manifesto:
“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

“Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”

“Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it
doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun;”
——————————————————————————————————————————————-

Now, with Agony, ascension gear, and infusions. You are, in one content patch, going back on what was promised to bright-eyed gamers who fell in love with the concepts of a grind-free, no treadmill, no gated-content, MMORPG.

November 15 2005, Star Wars Galaxies NGE, A day which will live in infamy.
November 15 2012, Lost Shores, Well, apparently not.

Will history Repeat itself?

Now, again, I ask on the forums, Like I did 7 Years ago:

“What do we have to do to change this???”

“Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games.”
-Mike Obrien
“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills” -Colin Johanson

(edited by Moderator)

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Posted by: Badger.9374

Badger.9374

Their stock would surely suffer more if all of the dedicated players who still spend money in the gem store just stopped playing (or at least stopped spending money).

ANet deserves failure for lying to us.

Giggity.

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Posted by: Drunken Mad King.8193

Drunken Mad King.8193

_

“What do we have to do to change this???”

I’m not being sarcastic or hateful with this response, but the reality of the situation is that all we can do is let this unfold, make a decision as to whether or not we approve of the direction and then either stick with the game or quit the game and let it go in the direction that the management decides it should go.

They are going to do this no matter the amount of complaints that they receive. They have a vision that this is going to retain customer base and that it will gain them more customer base than they will lose. Whether or not that vision is accurate or not is only something that time will tell.

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Posted by: BBilbo.9641

BBilbo.9641

It’s not going to change. Many suspect declining stock prices and Nexon’s share purchase is driving this change.

If that’s true, things will get a lot worse.

BTW-Did you notice the date this patch went live? NGE!

Nice call! Thats.. actually quite haunting…

November 15 2005, A day which will live in infamy.
November 15 2012, apparently not.

“Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games.”
-Mike Obrien
“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills” -Colin Johanson

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Posted by: stof.9341

stof.9341

It’s not going to change. Many suspect declining stock prices and Nexon’s share purchase is driving this change.

If that’s true, things will get a lot worse.

BTW-Did you notice the date this patch went live? NGE!

NCSoft stock suffered a lot mostly the day the complaints started on the forums. Who’s the smart one now? XD It’ll teach them.

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Posted by: bojangles.6912

bojangles.6912

We can’t do anything. It isn’t our company.

Still I have no clue why SOE kept with the nge when their subs went from under 300k to 50k in a very short time. They should have reverted it back while they still had a chance imo.

There is no telling though how many subs would currently be playing today (if they never switched to the nge). At its peak it never got over 300k subs. With all the options out there now, as back then SWG came out before WoW, so who knows.

GW2 is definitely not the game a lot of people expected nor is it getting any better. But at least it is free monthly unless you using the cash shop.

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Posted by: Mandrax.7342

Mandrax.7342

Just to add the SWG issue. Read the following blog from a SWG dev, it has some relevance.

http://rubenfield.com/?p=86

Some things cannot be undone. I just hope Arenanet REALLY know their what they are doing, because if not, this could well be the next SWG NGE situation.

Edit: You have to put the ?p=86 in your browser manually it seems to go direct to the blog in question.

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Posted by: Plague.5329

Plague.5329

It’s a marketing decision on ANet’s part. It’s already been made clear how unpopular (or at least neutral) the change has been. There’s nothing more the fans can do. I imagine ANet believes the changes are small enough that it won’t matter as much as in your example.

I don’t think it’ll kill GW2 like it killed SWO, although with the way ANet is behaving, it would serve them right to have this game die in a gutter, the same way. The gaming industry I thought had learned its lesson after so many MMOs crashed and burned, but apparently ANet coasted too long on GW1 without realizing how they coasted. They need a spanking to be put in their place, is all.

I fully expect some sort of public apology in the future, or for the game to buckle and go free to play in a few months. Maybe a little over a year. It’ll take a while. GW2 could probably support itself as a F2P using the old trash MMO model they’re moving to. They wouldn’t be able to support the staff they have now.

Decisions like this are usually made by one or two people in charge of everyone else, who are actively ruining the company. The rest of the staff can’t do anything about it, and can’t say anything about it. I guess feel bad for the people in the ANet offices who have to watch their game burn and fall just because there’s someone or some people in the head offices who have no idea what they’re doing. There’s probably some heavy internal politics going on in there right now. People who are a cancer to not only this game but the ANet work environment need to be removed as quickly as possible. The only way to do that is an appeal to people at the very top, who either are the problem, part of the problem or are too friendly or involved to fire the people who need to be ejected. The most power we have is to influence people who own stock in their company. The more of a fuss we make, the more obvious it becomes how displeased the source of their money is. That means they’re unhappy, which means stocks bottoming out. That can translate into change. Just keep complaining. And try to put the enablers and locusts in their place. Other than that, just sit back and watch the ship sail. It may burn. It may not. But I won’t be on it!

(edited by Plague.5329)

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Posted by: Zogyark.4597

Zogyark.4597

Their stock would surely suffer more if all of the dedicated players who still spend money in the gem store just stopped playing (or at least stopped spending money).

ANet deserves failure for lying to us.

I’ve stopped, not another cent from me. This is no longer the game that deserves my money, if it had a sub I would’ve cancelled my subscription.

Necromancer Lupicus Solo – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWkSkhmWiDU

Retired Until Expansion or Meaningful Content is Released.

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Posted by: Logun.2349

Logun.2349

We can’t change it, they already have it in their heads that this will net them more income despite the Fan outcry and those that will quit the game over it.

I’m moving on, and perhaps after 13 years of MMO gaming just giving up on the genre altogether.

It seems impossible for anyone to stick to their conviction and build a game that isn’t a WoW clone.

The should just declare WoW genre ….something like MMOWOWRPG

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Posted by: xeph.8410

xeph.8410

I doubt there is anything we can do to reverse this decision. Every single piece of PR out of Anet right now is the company line – which makes sense, and if I were an employee at Anet and wanted to keep my job I’d be doing the same thing.

As saddened as I am by this, it is Anet’s decision to do go through with this, just as it is my decision to play or no longer play this game. That’s about all we can do, I think.

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Posted by: ASB.4295

ASB.4295

I’m too tired to fight, to be honest. All I’m doing is ceasing my marketing(good word of mouth) and monetary support. We don’t even know what the real reason behind the change is. Some shady NC clause that enables them to demand ANet to implement these things if the sales numbers didn’t pass a certain threshold? ANet speculating on grinders to make them more money than a tiny group of casuals and old fans?
We don’t know. They can’t and won’t tell us. All we can effectively do is to stop feeding the cancer.

(edited by ASB.4295)

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Posted by: Rejam.3946

Rejam.3946

Their stock would surely suffer more if all of the dedicated players who still spend money in the gem store just stopped playing (or at least stopped spending money).

ANet deserves failure for lying to us.

I’ve stopped, not another cent from me. This is no longer the game that deserves my money, if it had a sub I would’ve cancelled my subscription.

Well, that’s the nice thing. We already paid for the game.
I can continue to play the game as I have been until now and don’t have to give them any more money to support this 180 they’ve done.
We’ll see soon enough if the grinders support them, too.

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Posted by: Rehashed Jibe Tube.7102

Rehashed Jibe Tube.7102

we don’t need to do anything to change it. we aren’t responsible for content developement or corperate decisions at ANET. They make us an offer, we accept it or go elsewhere.

The only people who have anything invested in the success or faliure of this game are ANET employees.

Sometimes you buy a product and find out it was not exactly as advertised. happens all the time. You either throw it out or use it as is.

Such is life.

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Posted by: dalendria.3762

dalendria.3762

+1
Well said.

What can be done?

They could have delayed the patch but its too late now. The damage to the team’s reputation and vision has been done. What did SWG do? I barely knew about SWG until it closed down. Then I did some research and most of what I found was all the negativity around NGE. To date, I still do not know the true quality of that game because it is difficult separating out the NGE negativity.

Once a company loses customer loyalty and tarnishes its brand, it is hard for that company to recover. Yes, they can retcon this whole thing but people will remember.

We did all we could do by expressing our concern over this 180 degree change in design vision prior to its implementation. Now it is done. Over time, the impact of this will be known. It might be like SWG where they realize it was a huge mistake. Or it might work out but create an entirely different playerbase, game and mindset.

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Posted by: Scarlett.1549

Scarlett.1549

Forget the pve side of things, come and play some pvp instead! It’s a pvp game after all isn’t it?

Maybe if every1 stopped pve’n, maybe more concentration will be put into pvp side of things. There are plenty of other games to pve in.

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Posted by: Amulrei.4973

Amulrei.4973

Or it might work out but create an entirely different playerbase, game and mindset.

No game in history has done well by trying to mimic WoW. I can only imagine a game that was built to be the anti-WoW of sorts failing even more spectacularly at such an attempt. We are already starting to see the initial signs of such an event.

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Posted by: stof.9341

stof.9341

No game in history has done well by trying to mimic WoW.

No MMO in history has done well by changing radically the player base after release.

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Posted by: Logun.2349

Logun.2349

I personally think this is a huge mistake for them but there’s nothing we can do about it. The people this is hitting the hardest is there Core fan that has been with them since GW1.

The other group this is hurting is the early adopters that bought into their message early and got what they were talking about. They got the reasons why current MMO’s were essentially broken with the copy and paste systems that worked against players spontaneously working together. They were ready for something new ….. but that all feels like an empty bill of goods now.

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Posted by: Amulrei.4973

Amulrei.4973

No MMO in history has done well by changing radically the player base after release.

That was pretty much the point I was trying to make. GW2 was hyped for years as the “MMO you will love if you hate MMOs!”. Now whatever powers that be at AN are trying to morph it into the very game people tried to escape.

It’s not going to end well for anyone involved.

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Posted by: chronus.1326

chronus.1326

Such is life.

That is the logic of the defeated! Winners must always think of not how the world is but how the world should be!

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Posted by: siepher.9408

siepher.9408

Such is life.

That is the logic of the defeated! Winners must always think of not how the world is but how the world should be!

your posts make me smile and do a happy facepalm every time i read them.

this is a compliment btw.

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Posted by: Sylosi.6503

Sylosi.6503

It seems impossible for anyone to stick to their conviction and build a game that isn’t a WoW clone.

CCP managed to with EVE Online and as far as I am aware it is the only MMORPG other than WoW to show any sort of sustained periods of long term growth (talking modern MMOs with a big Western market).

Seems games companies either treat MMOs as disposable these days, something to earn a quick profit from initially, then move on to the next game or they still can’t learn if you are going the WoW/EQ route that you will be competing at a big disadvantage against WoW’s playerbase, years of content & years of effort people have put into characters.

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Posted by: Plague.5329

Plague.5329

I think one aspect that didn’t help is that earlier, around launch, when the subject of endgame content came up, there a big debate between people who thought players needed a sense of progression throughout the game (which is true) and people who… well, weren’t even at level 80.

The problem was that someone in ANet’s rafters took this to mean gear grind, rather than what players were asking for, which was lateral progression and access to more features that would allow them to keep moving forward, but in different ways other than equipment.

A colossal blunder on the part ANet’s development leads. If you look at the failures of other MMOs, it’s not just “they remade WoW.” Rather, the problems were more complex. You don’t simplify the core of your game, only its initial features of accessibility. Stupifying your game is death. You also don’t burn bridges with your existing, marketed player base. This means when you have 8,000 people spitting fire on the forums, that 8,000 (since most players never post) represents a very BIG portion of your playerbase. You also don’t ignore primary concerns for the same reason. Adding features seems like something that will make you more money, but especially in a modern age of networked players, displeasing large portions of your players is far more harmful. So introducing systems and then never fixing them, for the sake of releasing more and more broken content is also death. ANet unfortunately is committing most of these sins today.

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Posted by: Calae.1738

Calae.1738

The only power consumers have is in thier wallet. No company can force people to purchase a product.

Let them make the mistake and learn from it.

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Posted by: chronus.1326

chronus.1326

I think one aspect that didn’t help is that earlier, around launch, when the subject of endgame content came up.

This is true.

GW1 didn’t have endgame.

90% of the content was only available to you after you reached the max level. Which was 20. And reaching it was about as slow are reaching 20 in GW2. Levels before 20 were more like a tutorial section.

In that sense, the game actually had no “levels” or “leveling” in the traditional sense, and no “end” game content. Just simply content. Lots of content. And none of it was “taxed” by money sinks.

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Posted by: BBilbo.9641

BBilbo.9641

Or it might work out but create an entirely different playerbase, game and mindset.

No game in history has done well by trying to mimic WoW. I can only imagine a game that was built to be the anti-WoW of sorts failing even more spectacularly at such an attempt. We are already starting to see the initial signs of such an event.

Omg seriously? THIS GAME HAS A VERY VERY SLIGHT GEAR TREADMILL OMG THIS MUST BE A WOW CLONE… please…

The start of a gear treadmill after only 3 months since launch. What do YOU think that will turn into, in the long-term of this game, if there is one?

“Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games.”
-Mike Obrien
“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills” -Colin Johanson

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Posted by: EliteZ.1682

EliteZ.1682

So the game is bringing out a very slight gear improvement, i would hardly say Anet are forcing a massive gear treadmill on you. Atm it is only on bags and trinket and the image of the two rings show there is a +5 stat difference between the exotic and asceneded, would you say that’s game breaking? Maybe none of you want any character progression, but i for one and i know alot of people who have quit or didn’t want to buy the game becasue there is no character progression at all. I don’t want to be runing around in the same gear for the next 7 years, yeah GW1 had no progression, but GW1 was 90% based on PvP. GW1 was NOT a MMO. No other mmo on the market has no character progression once you hit max lvl because it’s something that makes an mmo an mmo. This is hardly like WoW where your gear becomes completely uselss every few months when a new raid comes out and you spend the next few months farming the next tier of gear. You can do everything in the game still without the ascended gear unless you’re getting into the high lvls of the new dungeon

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Posted by: xeph.8410

xeph.8410

there is a +5 stat difference between the exotic and asceneded

Please educate yourself before posting:
http://www.gw2db.com/items?filter-item-date-added=11%2f15%2f2012

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Posted by: frogshake.2419

frogshake.2419

You can do everything in the game still without the ascended gear unless you’re getting into the high lvls of the new dungeon

Everything but that, got it. So unlike WoW. Oh, wait…

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Posted by: siepher.9408

siepher.9408

So the game is bringing out a very slight gear improvement, i would hardly say Anet are forcing a massive gear treadmill on you. Atm it is only on bags and trinket and the image of the two rings show there is a +5 stat difference between the exotic and asceneded, would you say that’s game breaking? Maybe none of you want any character progression, but i for one and i know alot of people who have quit or didn’t want to buy the game becasue there is no character progression at all. I don’t want to be runing around in the same gear for the next 7 years, yeah GW1 had no progression, but GW1 was 90% based on PvP. GW1 was NOT a MMO. No other mmo on the market has no character progression once you hit max lvl because it’s something that makes an mmo an mmo. This is hardly like WoW where your gear becomes completely uselss every few months when a new raid comes out and you spend the next few months farming the next tier of gear. You can do everything in the game still without the ascended gear unless you’re getting into the high lvls of the new dungeon

again why does progression mean bigger stats?

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Posted by: Cancer.9065

Cancer.9065

“This will not end well”

-darn you Anet for making me quote Thrahearne :shakes fist to the sky:

Sadly the only thing we can do is making our voices heard. The biggest mistake we had was not policing the forums to ut a coutner weight to all the people asking for a gear treadmill. obviously we shouldn’t have to… but now we know we must.

Cancer is also a Zodiac sign.

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Posted by: Michael.6849

Michael.6849

A lot of people are bringing up the argument because there is a slight increase in stats it doesn’t count as a treadmill, I guess these people have never witnessed an avalanche.

It’s like if you were being mugged and they would slice you with a knife, sure you could laugh it off, say it’s nothing but a scratch, just don’t be surprised if they stab you in the gut on the following jab.

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Posted by: Curlybaby.6258

Curlybaby.6258

So the game is bringing out a very slight gear improvement, i would hardly say Anet are forcing a massive gear treadmill on you. Atm it is only on bags and trinket and the image of the two rings show there is a +5 stat difference between the exotic and asceneded, would you say that’s game breaking? Maybe none of you want any character progression, but i for one and i know alot of people who have quit or didn’t want to buy the game becasue there is no character progression at all. I don’t want to be runing around in the same gear for the next 7 years, yeah GW1 had no progression, but GW1 was 90% based on PvP. GW1 was NOT a MMO. No other mmo on the market has no character progression once you hit max lvl because it’s something that makes an mmo an mmo. This is hardly like WoW where your gear becomes completely uselss every few months when a new raid comes out and you spend the next few months farming the next tier of gear. You can do everything in the game still without the ascended gear unless you’re getting into the high lvls of the new dungeon

There is gear progression in GW2, its just that it is cosmetic and not statistical, which is just fine with the majority of GW fans. You say the gear progression initiated by Anet is “very slight.” What you fail to realize, however, is that at the very onset even earthquakes start with “very slight” cracks, hurricanes start with “very slight” winds, and forest fires start with “very slight” sparks. I can sympathize with you when you say that you and many others did not want a game without gear progression. The bottom line in that regard is, that this game never promised gear progression. So it stands to reason that by its very game design, well advertised before game release, that this game was no more for you and your friends who wanted gear progression, than the game of football is to a legion of french fashion super models.

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Posted by: biggs.4702

biggs.4702

You guys need to remember 3 things:

1) ArenaNet has access to data you will never see and your opinion means nothing compared this data (not in a mean way but because facts > opinion).

2) ArenaNet is way smarter than you are. And they’ve proven this time and again. This is compounded by the attempt at doing something different which people just aren’t getting (or worse, think they get it but really don’t). When it comes to these philosophical outlook points, ArenaNet is going to stick to their guns (such as with dungeon difficulty). In other areas they’ve proven they listen (more back slot items in game and FOV changes are just two quick examples). But for any point where they seem to not be listening, see point number one above.

3) You’re not a game designer, and what you want to see in a game only speaks for your own desires and not the rest of the player base. You never speak for anyone but yourself. And in case you think you know more about game design than ArenaNet, please refer back to point two above.

The obstacle is the path.

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Posted by: Alberel Leonhart.9640

Alberel Leonhart.9640

I think it’s safe to say the change is happening. The thing is this isn’t a progression treadmill like some would claim until we see another further tier added later. Much of the outcry over this is that people are now concerned that they’ll keep adding tiers.

Even if they were planning that I imagine with the response to this so far they’ll think twice.

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Posted by: Curlybaby.6258

Curlybaby.6258

You guys need to remember 3 things:

1) ArenaNet has access to data you will never see and your opinion means nothing compared this data (not in a mean way but because facts > opinion).

2) ArenaNet is way smarter than you are. And they’ve proven this time and again. This is compounded by the attempt at doing something different which people just aren’t getting (or worse, think they get it but really don’t). When it comes to these philosophical outlook points, ArenaNet is going to stick to their guns (such as with dungeon difficulty). In other areas they’ve proven they listen (more back slot items in game and FOV changes are just two quick examples). But for any point where they seem to not be listening, see point number one above.

3) You’re not a game designer, and what you want to see in a game only speaks for your own desires and not the rest of the player base. You never speak for anyone but yourself. And in case you think you know more about game design than ArenaNet, please refer back to point two above.

The same was said for the NGE Star Wars Galaxies developers.

Do a little research on them, then get back to us.

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Posted by: Corvindi.5734

Corvindi.5734

You guys need to remember 3 things:

1) ArenaNet has access to data you will never see and your opinion means nothing compared this data (not in a mean way but because facts > opinion).

2) ArenaNet is way smarter than you are. And they’ve proven this time and again. This is compounded by the attempt at doing something different which people just aren’t getting (or worse, think they get it but really don’t). When it comes to these philosophical outlook points, ArenaNet is going to stick to their guns (such as with dungeon difficulty). In other areas they’ve proven they listen (more back slot items in game and FOV changes are just two quick examples). But for any point where they seem to not be listening, see point number one above.

3) You’re not a game designer, and what you want to see in a game only speaks for your own desires and not the rest of the player base. You never speak for anyone but yourself. And in case you think you know more about game design than ArenaNet, please refer back to point two above.

The same was said for the NGE Star Wars Galaxies developers.

Do a little research on them, then get back to us.

This is what I think of every time the ‘information players aren’t privy to’ defense comes up. That, and SWTOR. They really thought they were going to make a bundle off that game. Oops.

Just because they have more numbers and info than players do doesn’t mean they can’t make mistakes.

“…we don’t expect you to be forced into dungeons at endgame.”

~ArenaNet

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Posted by: Amulrei.4973

Amulrei.4973

You guys need to remember 3 things:

1) ArenaNet has access to data you will never see and your opinion means nothing compared this data (not in a mean way but because facts > opinion).

2) ArenaNet is way smarter than you are. And they’ve proven this time and again. This is compounded by the attempt at doing something different which people just aren’t getting (or worse, think they get it but really don’t). When it comes to these philosophical outlook points, ArenaNet is going to stick to their guns (such as with dungeon difficulty). In other areas they’ve proven they listen (more back slot items in game and FOV changes are just two quick examples). But for any point where they seem to not be listening, see point number one above.

3) You’re not a game designer, and what you want to see in a game only speaks for your own desires and not the rest of the player base. You never speak for anyone but yourself. And in case you think you know more about game design than ArenaNet, please refer back to point two above.

I swear I see this exact same post every time every time an MMO starts to struggle and die. It’s like a Kübler-Ross model for failing video games. Denial is the first step…

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Posted by: chronus.1326

chronus.1326

A lot of people are bringing up the argument because there is a slight increase in stats it doesn’t count as a treadmill, I guess these people have never witnessed an avalanche.

It’s like if you were being mugged and they would slice you with a knife, sure you could laugh it off, say it’s nothing but a scratch, just don’t be surprised if they stab you in the gut on the following jab.

It’s extra funny because if they actually would have played WoW then they would know that there is only a 10% difference in starts between two tiers there.

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Posted by: BBilbo.9641

BBilbo.9641

You guys need to remember 3 things:

1) ArenaNet has access to data you will never see and your opinion means nothing compared this data (not in a mean way but because facts > opinion).

2) ArenaNet is way smarter than you are. And they’ve proven this time and again. This is compounded by the attempt at doing something different which people just aren’t getting (or worse, think they get it but really don’t). When it comes to these philosophical outlook points, ArenaNet is going to stick to their guns (such as with dungeon difficulty). In other areas they’ve proven they listen (more back slot items in game and FOV changes are just two quick examples). But for any point where they seem to not be listening, see point number one above.

3) You’re not a game designer, and what you want to see in a game only speaks for your own desires and not the rest of the player base. You never speak for anyone but yourself. And in case you think you know more about game design than ArenaNet, please refer back to point two above.

Those 3 facts are trumped by one Greater fact.

1) We’re the ones with the money. We’re the one that pay for the game, expansions, and cash shop. You can have all the knowledge about game design and internal planning and organization you want. But, if the customers feel betrayed, and leave, there is no more game.

That’s what SWG NGE taught us, as cited in the first post:
“The mistake was to not just think we know the right direction without bringing the fans into the mix. We made the cardinal sin of not listening, but assuming, and we were wrong.”

“Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games.”
-Mike Obrien
“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills” -Colin Johanson

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Posted by: Sylosi.6503

Sylosi.6503

1) ArenaNet has access to data you will never see and your opinion means nothing compared this data (not in a mean way but because facts > opinion).

Data only goes so far, lots of stuff is purely down to personal preference which does not show up in game data, for example you can’t tell from game data if someone who predominately likes to play WvW is going to be happy to grind extra gear or not.

2) ArenaNet is way smarter than you are.

Speak for yourself, if I released software in the state Anet do (to be fair this applies to most games companies), I would be fired.

As for game designers, read my previous sentence.

(edited by Sylosi.6503)

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Posted by: Amulrei.4973

Amulrei.4973

That’s what SWG NGE taught us, as cited in the first post:
“The mistake was to not just think we know the right direction without bringing the fans into the mix. We made the cardinal sin of not listening, but assuming, and we were wrong.”

The irony is AN made all the claims they would respect and listen to the player all up though development then just…didn’t. I really don’t understand how they could think they could get away with it in the age of the internet. http://www.arena.net/blog/the-golden-rules-of-guild-wars-2 is a great read if you feel like a bitter laugh or two. The last two tenants especially are a complete joke knowing what we know now.

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Posted by: Djinn.4396

Djinn.4396

Or it might work out but create an entirely different playerbase, game and mindset.

No game in history has done well by trying to mimic WoW. I can only imagine a game that was built to be the anti-WoW of sorts failing even more spectacularly at such an attempt. We are already starting to see the initial signs of such an event.

I don’t think thats true. I think Rift is doing just fine. Is it the massive cash cow that WoW is? Probably not, but they have dynamic content, 3 Faction PVP, Meaningful PVE endgame progression for people that want it.. All in all Rift is a very nicely put together WoW clone that is a very viable alternative for people that are frustrated by how dumbed down WoW has gotten over the years.

But both of the above mentioned games HAVE A DUNGEON FINDER TOOL!!! Anet totally failed not putting this in.. yep ima say it again..

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Posted by: Cactus Brawler.7415

Cactus Brawler.7415

The answer is simple do not buy anything from the Gemstore, do not buy a single thing, do not give Anet a single penny, dime or whatever of your money. Now you see they are banking on the extra money from locusts to give them a cash flow increase, but what they fail to realize is these guys and gals aren’t going to buy anything.

They won’t be buying Stones, since they don’t care for looks just stats, (BC outland clown suits anyone?), they won’t be buying exp boosters since alting isn’t their style of play, karma boosters they don’t need those for these dungeons, magic find boosters? Don’t need for this content. Dyes? Don’t need. Town clothes? Nope.

There is nothing these guys and girls need from the store to grind content.

Obviously some one at Anet, or more likely their Bosses at NCsoft and Nexon, have mistaken this for a Korean game.

Korean games having a different subscription method, where you don’t buy a monthly subscription you buy a card of X amount of hours, that are spent by being in game. Hence why Korean games have successful cash shops, because if you’ve only got ten hours to play, you’re going to want those ten hours to be as rewarding as possible, so you’d buy exp, drop, potion boosters and so on.

Somewhere along the design chain they’ve forgotten that the grinders they are now catering for don’t need to buy anything from them.

So if we make this change fail, maybe they’ll remember they’ve got a market that kept their previous game running for seven years, and return to the manifesto.

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Posted by: Kirin.7306

Kirin.7306

Good read. Sadly I think this is falling on deaf ears. Ego is impossible to overcome.

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Posted by: siepher.9408

siepher.9408

That’s what SWG NGE taught us, as cited in the first post:
“The mistake was to not just think we know the right direction without bringing the fans into the mix. We made the cardinal sin of not listening, but assuming, and we were wrong.”

The irony is AN made all the claims they would respect and listen to the player all up though development then just…didn’t. I really don’t understand how they could think they could get away with it in the age of the internet. http://www.arena.net/blog/the-golden-rules-of-guild-wars-2 is a great read if you feel like a bitter laugh or two. The last two tenants especially are a complete joke knowing what we know now.

i really like their quoted purpose for the last tenant

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Posted by: Amulrei.4973

Amulrei.4973

The answer is simple do not buy anything from the Gemstore, do not buy a single thing, do not give Anet a single penny, dime or whatever of your money. Now you see they are banking on the extra money from locusts to give them a cash flow increase, but what they fail to realize is these guys and gals aren’t going to buy anything.

They won’t be buying Stones, since they don’t care for looks just stats, (BC outland clown suits anyone?), they won’t be buying exp boosters since alting isn’t their style of play, karma boosters they don’t need those for these dungeons, magic find boosters? Don’t need for this content. Dyes? Don’t need. Town clothes? Nope.

There is nothing these guys and girls need from the store to grind content.

Obviously some one at Anet, or more likely their Bosses at NCsoft and Nexon, have mistaken this for a Korean game.

Korean games having a different subscription method, where you don’t buy a monthly subscription you buy a card of X amount of hours, that are spent by being in game. Hence why Korean games have successful cash shops, because if you’ve only got ten hours to play, you’re going to want those ten hours to be as rewarding as possible, so you’d buy exp, drop, potion boosters and so on.

Somewhere along the design chain they’ve forgotten that the grinders they are now catering for don’t need to buy anything from them.

So if we make this change fail, maybe they’ll remember they’ve got a market that kept their previous game running for seven years, and return to the manifesto.

The sad reality is like I said earlier, it’s the loyal fans that loved GW2 for what it was designed to be that will lose. Trust me, I will likely never be giving AN another cent but I also know full well we are kitten no matter what happens. Either GW2 will die or it will become some awful mutation of what it once stood for.

Either way, we lose.

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Posted by: CJAncients.6907

CJAncients.6907

A lot of people are bringing up the argument because there is a slight increase in stats it doesn’t count as a treadmill, I guess these people have never witnessed an avalanche.

It’s like if you were being mugged and they would slice you with a knife, sure you could laugh it off, say it’s nothing but a scratch, just don’t be surprised if they stab you in the gut on the following jab.

It’s extra funny because if they actually would have played WoW then they would know that there is only a 10% difference in starts between two tiers there.

Quoted for truth.

As somebody that’s played WoW up until end of Cataclysm, that 10% adds up. After a several month hiatus you are looking at 30% or 40% difference in gear stats.

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Posted by: BBilbo.9641

BBilbo.9641

Good read. Sadly I think this is falling on deaf ears. Ego is impossible to overcome.

Well, the fact that this topic has gotten this far without being Merged/locked/deleted might mean it’s being acknowledged.

Either that, or it’s serving as a “pressure valve” from the main merged topic still blowing up.

Just, please keep the comments civil, constructive, and insightful, guys.

“Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games.”
-Mike Obrien
“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills” -Colin Johanson