What Elder Dragons represent

What Elder Dragons represent

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Posted by: EdwinLi.1284

EdwinLi.1284

I remember how someone on the “What are the Elder Dragons?” post how each Elder Dragon represents different Dark desires. Thinking about this now, he or she is correct. Each Elder Dragon seems to represent the greatest Dark Desires known to all living beings.

Primordus – Desire for Desruction:

Some where in all of us we desire the destruction of something and deep down we may even desire the Destruction of the world secretly.

Jormag – Desire for Power:

The desire for more power has always lead to corruption in people. It is one of the most common dark desires we have that tend to consume people who have tasted too much power or felt too weak and desired power to change things.

Zhaitan – Desire for Immortality

Deep down people fear death. Many have always fear death for many different reason or for similar reasons. The desire to cheat death and prevent death has been one of the greatest desires people have even today.

Kralkatorrik – Desire for Perfection

We all desire to be something more than we are now. We strive and fight for that perfection we seek but in the end no matter how close we get it still feels so far so we keep going. However, this obsession tends to lead people to being blind to how greatly wrong their actions have been and what you have lost to obtain that perfection.

Deep Sea Drago- ????

6th Unknown Dragon – ???

The last two desires the last 2 dragons we have not meet yet still remains unknown but with the given hints we have on the existence of the 6th Elder Dragon, for some reason I feel that the 6th Unknown dragon may be connected to the Nightmares some how. The 6th Dragon could represent Desire for Madness since the Nightmare represent corruption through madness by corruption the Dream and Sylvari.

Heck my theory on the 6th Elder Dragon is that he(or she) has no physical form but is actually living in the Dream of Dreams and his way of corruption is through the mind which is turning people’s minds into insanity. Since, the Dream is a like a type of mind for the Sylvari it could explain how the 6th Elder Dragon corrupts the Sylvari into becoming the Nightmare Court. Also that Dragon we face in the Sylvari into may have been one of the 6th Elder Dragon’s Champions sent to that part of the Dream to corrupt the newborn Sylvari (aka our Sylvari character) through the Dream like he has always done to the other Sylvari which are now in part of the Nightmare Court.

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Posted by: Insanitybg.4217

Insanitybg.4217

1st: How is Kralkatorrik symbolizing perfection ?
2nd:The dragon in the dream is how the dream represents zhaitan
3rd:The dream is made by the pale tree, if there was anything living in there besides the sylvari she would know it
4th:The nightmare court are just free willed sylvari who don’t believe in the tablet of ventari (much like atheists) but since they had to make them an enemy they dumbed them down to a bunch of anarchist sadists, nothing corrupted about them.

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Posted by: EdwinLi.1284

EdwinLi.1284

It is shown in the Book Edge of Destiny when Snaff entered his mind he discovered Kralkatorrik desire only to obtain perfection which is why he went after Snaff because he wanted that perfection he saw in Snaff.

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Posted by: Insanitybg.4217

Insanitybg.4217

As far as i remember it was something along the lines of the dragons wanting to mindlessly consume everything and just changing it in the process (ice minions on jormag, crystal for kral, etc), not exactly sure about the perfection part..

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I am a he, thank you. Could have at least said my name. :p

Each Elder Dragon seems to represent the greatest Dark Desires known to all living beings.

I’d say it’s a bit of a stretch to say that they’re what all living beings want. Rather, it’s just what the Elder Dragons desire that I was talking about.

the given hints we have on the existence of the 6th Elder Dragon, for some reason I feel that the 6th Unknown dragon may be connected to the Nightmares some how.

Except that the only hints of the sixth dragon – if it is still alive – is that it’s tied to vegitation and/or poison. Keep in mind that the presence of Nightmare Husks in the Crucible of Eternity is likely due to the alliance between Inquest and the Nightmare Court. Similarly, in that Zone Green the primary attribute the area has is poison.

Heck my theory on the 6th Elder Dragon is that he(or she) has no physical form but is actually living in the Dream of Dreams and his way of corruption is through the mind which is turning people’s minds into insanity. Since, the Dream is a like a type of mind for the Sylvari it could explain how the 6th Elder Dragon corrupts the Sylvari into becoming the Nightmare Court. Also that Dragon we face in the Sylvari into may have been one of the 6th Elder Dragon’s Champions sent to that part of the Dream to corrupt the newborn Sylvari (aka our Sylvari character) through the Dream like he has always done to the other Sylvari which are now in part of the Nightmare Court.

As said the DoD’s dragon is a representation of Zhaitan – it’s the PC’s Wyld Hunt to slay Zhaitan being symbolized and “physical.”

The Nightmare Court are still anti-Elder Dragons, so they can’t be Elder Dragon minions, especially since sylvari are immune to all dragon corruption.

1st: How is Kralkatorrik symbolizing perfection ?

Rather than quoting or rewriting my explanation, I’ll just link the original post the OP is talking about.

But to summarize it: Kralkatorrik’s mind is referenced as a cyclone that’s trying to fill the void in the center – to obtain what it is not. When one obtains all that they aren’t, they become “perfect.”

3rd:The dream is made by the pale tree, if there was anything living in there besides the sylvari she would know it
4th:The nightmare court are just free willed sylvari who don’t believe in the tablet of ventari (much like atheists) but since they had to make them an enemy they dumbed them down to a bunch of anarchist sadists, nothing corrupted about them.

3) No, actually, the Pale Tree is just the caretaker. Even she doesn’t know the true origins of the Dream. I personally suspect that the Dream is an aspect of the Mists. This is due to what it’s described as – aether and representation of the past, present, and possible future. Sounds like what the Mists is – protomater that creates based on what it touches, and it, through the Rift, ties to the past, present, and future.

4) I wouldn’t really call them “free willed” but yes, more or less.

As far as i remember it was something along the lines of the dragons wanting to mindlessly consume everything and just changing it in the process (ice minions on jormag, crystal for kral, etc), not exactly sure about the perfection part..

The “mindless” stuff about the Elder Dragons was the perspective of the races of Tyria at the beginning of GW2 (Anet didn’t want to spoil, I guess). They very much aren’t mindless as we see both Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan having thought processes.

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Posted by: EdwinLi.1284

EdwinLi.1284

As far as i remember it was something along the lines of the dragons wanting to mindlessly consume everything and just changing it in the process (ice minions on jormag, crystal for kral, etc), not exactly sure about the perfection part..

The Elder dragons are not mindless and have a intelligence that will allow them to command their minions properly through their champions but they do have the desire to consume all magic to survive. However, they also have their own agendas as well.

Zhaitan wanted to consume magic not only as food but also because he represent the Desire for Immortality so he wanted to keep living. His greatest fear wasn’t the Pact nor any other beings but the thought and fact that he will die.

When Snaff entered Kralkatorrik’s mind he discovered Kralkatorrik had a empty void in it. That void is what Kralkatorrik seeks to fill up which leads to his reason to consume life and turn them into branded. He seeks to fill that empty void and long for that perfection he seek.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Some further thoughts on the deep sea dragon and the Sixth Elder Dragon (referred to as DSD and Sixth for simplicity) regarding this topic, on the very very low amount of information we have:

DSD

A small attempt to determine what the DSD may have for a desire. In the Movement of the World, we’re told that it twists water itself – similar to Primordus, it doesn’t seem to corrupt living beings, though we can’t be certain of this yet. Along with this, we’re told by largos that the ocean depths are now filled with “horrors” (sounds very lovecraftian to me). This in of itself doesn’t give much, but it does remind me of a certain NPC who corrupts living beings and transforms them in GW1: Kanaxai. Kanaxai is called a demon, though its origins unknown, and appears fairly humanoid. However, it corrupts and torments individuals by nightmares and horrors, turning them into Oni. Take note, that Oni had tentacles on their faces. And that Kanaxai was underwater when he was trapped by the Jade Sea. Not a solid connection, but a possible one.

Interesting to note is that these aspects of Kanaxai are also shared with Abaddon, though the “corruption of humans” are a bit different (shimmery and aetheral, with fish-like skin – whereas Kanaxai’s “corruption of humans” turns them into grey and… actually a tad bit insect like I think – not really sure how to define that )

If this connection is true, then I would thus link the DSD with the concept or desire of “psychopathy” “madness” or “insanity.” Something that horrors would often bring (once more, sounding lovecraftian).

Sixth

This one’s even harder, though similar to the DSD, we’re given two hints at the Sixth’s nature, both coming from Zone Green of the Infinite Coil Reactor in Mount Maelstrom. As many may know by now, Zone Green is overgrown with vegetation. This in of itself indicates a “nature” dragon. However, what’s just as common place as vegetation there is poison. Similarly, one may find out that the Infinite Coil Reactor was built after the Thaumanova Reactor exploded – as a replacement to the Thaumanova Reactor. Take note that the Thaumanova Reactor also has 6 sections to it – though it lacks a “zone black” counterpart. The vegetation section of it has an event with a “poison creature” – specifically, a rotting oakheart (a similar one can be found in Greatheart Weald of Queensdale during an event). These oakhearts are oddly shining despite being called “rotting.”

Sadly, this doesn’t really give any indication to the dragon’s persona, though it does give a line of thought when one considers that for Zhaitan and Primordus, their element is tied to their persona (undeath is a form of faux immortality; fire destroys and burns things) – thus poison would in turn suffocate life. Through such, I would denote on the lack of further information, that the Sixth’s persona and desire would be “pain” or “agony” – effectively, “sadism.”

Though I still wouldn’t put much faith onto the conclusions of the DSD and Sixth’s.

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Posted by: EdwinLi.1284

EdwinLi.1284

DSD

A small attempt to determine what the DSD may have for a desire. In the Movement of the World, we’re told that it twists water itself – similar to Primordus, it doesn’t seem to corrupt living beings, though we can’t be certain of this yet. Along with this, we’re told by largos that the ocean depths are now filled with “horrors” (sounds very lovecraftian to me). This in of itself doesn’t give much, but it does remind me of a certain NPC who corrupts living beings and transforms them in GW1: Kanaxai. Kanaxai is called a demon, though its origins unknown, and appears fairly humanoid. However, it corrupts and torments individuals by nightmares and horrors, turning them into Oni. Take note, that Oni had tentacles on their faces. And that Kanaxai was underwater when he was trapped by the Jade Sea. Not a solid connection, but a possible one.

Interesting to note is that these aspects of Kanaxai are also shared with Abaddon, though the “corruption of humans” are a bit different (shimmery and aetheral, with fish-like skin – whereas Kanaxai’s “corruption of humans” turns them into grey and… actually a tad bit insect like I think – not really sure how to define that )

If this connection is true, then I would thus link the DSD with the concept or desire of “psychopathy” “madness” or “insanity.” Something that horrors would often bring (once more, sounding lovecraftian).

Ya I’ve been think that Kannaxai may actually be a Champion of the DSD but it just my theory since the day he has been announced. One thing I noticed is where he was placed in the Jade Sea which is “the Deep”. The location is a very deep part of the Jade sea but if you think about what it may have been before it became the Jade Sea it would of been a Deep part of a Sea. Not to mention the name of the Luxon dungeon “the Deep” keep making me think of the Deep Sea Dragon. Putting these theory together I can only assume we will meet the Deep Sea Dragon once we reach Cantha and “the Deep” is where we may find info about how to defeat the Deep Sea Dragon or find out where he is located in the Unending Ocean.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I wouldn’t put any credence into the name of The Deep, as we know that the DSD is in the Unending Ocean (also, the Jade Sea has always been called such – it’s just that the Jade Wind petrified it, but the name was always Jade Sea) – this can be deduced from mentions of the dragons influence reaching so far north when talking about the krait immigrating into Viathan Lake (mentioned by a hylek), and we knew that the krait come from the deepest parts of the Unending Ocean. We were also told that the krait and quaggan fled from an “underwater dragon.”

In other words: the DSD is not in or near Cantha but is instead in the deepest part of the body of water between Cantha and Tyria/Elona. Evidence and logical deduction shows us that the DSD is in the Unending Ocean – where that “deepest” part is, however, is still a mystery. Though the mention of islands between Cantha and Elona indicate… not there.

I expect the DSD to be tied to an underwater-focused expansion. But this is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

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Posted by: EdwinLi.1284

EdwinLi.1284

You miss interpret what I said Konig. I said we will go there to find a way to defeat the DSD or find a way to locate him in the unending ocean. I never said we will fight him once we reach Cantha. Most likely only to introduce his minions to us there and discover his location in the Unending Ocean.

If Anet wants they may only allow us to explore the location in the Unending Ocean where he is located rather than make a continent size zone.

(edited by EdwinLi.1284)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

That makes no sense though, since it’s between Tyria and Cantha. Which was my point. Especially if the DSD’s minions are at the water’s surface (highly likely, imo), which means traveling to Cantha would mean wading through DSD territory.

Considering how much implications we get regarding the largos, it seems highly unlikely we’ll only go to where the DSD is at – if we face him at all.

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Posted by: Insanitybg.4217

Insanitybg.4217

Why do people think we’ll go to cantha first (or elona).Cantha is xenophobic and pretty much fine, elona is about 95% undead, no reason to go there (maybe besides stopping joko).

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Keep in mind that the last time Tyria heard from Cantha was over a century ago. Cantha today could be very different and possibly not very fine either.

Elona is the former home of the Order of Whispers which started off as Turai Ossa’s spy network which basically means fighting Joko was pretty much their reason for existing in the first place.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I don’t think anyone said Cantha will be first – in this thread that is. I suspect the first expansion to focus more on Tyria and continue the story of the Elder Dragons, and mostly finish it up (I suspect we’ll be beating Primordus, Kralkatorrik, and Jormag before the second expansion – be it in the first expansion or content updates). I think the second expansion will lead us into Elona, and begin an all new story idea completely.

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

If that is the case, then Kralkatorrik will be captured by Palawa Joko, or Palawa Joko would be one of his minions. Why? Because it would be boring to deal with undead all over again right after defeating Zhaitan. Palawa Joko could have discovered a way to enslave the wounded monster with a similar spell used to liberate Glint.

The dragons won’t be deal that quickly unless there’s a long, long, time between each update and fighting yet another Orr will become boring by the end. Worse if we defeat them all at once before the “ending of Gw2” because then they would like just as a pale excuse to keep Tyria isolated from the rest of the world. I would find more likely to see the dragons teaming-up and crushing Tyria, leaving us with no other choice but to run away and seek refuge beyond the continent of Tyria.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

The dragons won’t be deal that quickly

I disagree for a few reasons:

1) Storywise, the Pact have made huge advancements to fighting the Elder Dragons – they’ve made weapons that killed Zhaitan, and they searched Arah and found various relics about the ED. It would be silly for them to not press their advantage and go after other Elder Dragons immediately.
2) Now that one ED has been killed, I doubt the others will sit still.
3) From a development perspective, it’d be very boring to drag out the ED plot over so long. Either they’re going to get them out of the window quickly, or they won’t touch them at all. However, originally ArenaNet wanted Guild Wars to be done in sets of 3 – that’s why Nightfall was a conclusion and link for Prophecies and Factions. Similarly, we now have Eye of the North, Guild Wars 2 initial release, and then there will be the next expansion. Thus, if they’re following that original plan still, the second expansion will be the closure for the Elder Dragon story, just as NF was the closure for the Forgotten Gods story.

Worse if we defeat them all at once before the “ending of Gw2” because then they would like just as a pale excuse to keep Tyria isolated from the rest of the world.

I disagree since we now know their weaknesses. Once you know the opponents’ weaknesses, you can focus on that and exploit them, thus making them easier to beat.

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Posted by: Legion.4198

Legion.4198

I find difficult to believe that Arenanet will make the extermination of these monsters nothing but pest control when they were hyped to be global extinction level event. I agree that making the central point of the storyline would be as boring, but I think it would be a mistake to downplay their threat or impact in the world. Even if we move on to new threats, I think the dragons should be left as the background and perhaps the basic motivation for the future antagonists.

The Pact advances also cause a serious problem of escalation for any threat less menacing than a Dragon. If we face Palawa Joko or the Canthan Empire as enemies, then they will need to be even more powerful and technological or magical advanced than the Pact or even the ED. I doubt the Pact won’t follow us as the second in command, unless it is dissolved o gets bogged down/crushed by one or more of the Dragons.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Well, one thing that Joko, for instance, might have over Zhaitan is numbers. Zhaitan’s undead army was powerful, but was largely coming from Orr and what he could raid from neighbouring lands. Joko has been harvesting an entire continent since gaining power, and we know he has power over more than undead (the Mordant Crescent, the indentured Ossas, the junundu, and Joko knows what else). The Pact, meanwhile, is essentially a very powerful NGO – it’s proven able to take down a dragon in a rapid strike, yes, but without more support from the nations of Tyria, would it really be able to take on an empire that can wear it down in a battle of attrition? The defeat of Zhaitan, and certainly of other dragons, may actually erode some of its support – we don’t know how much the orders that make up the Pact are being propped up by the nations, but if the dragons are removed as an immediate threat, the nations might want to withdraw whatever support they supplied to that war effort in order to concentrate on lesser considerations.

So you could have a situation where, for instance, the Pact (or at least the Order of Whispers) wants to go after Joko, but the nations aren’t willing to sign away the resources to such an effort that they would for destroying an elder dragon, forcing them to act as a guerilla group rather than repeating the invasion of Orr.

There’s also the possibility that other dragons, especially Jormag, Primordus, and the DSD, will prove elusive to hunt down and destroy, but still enough of a threat through their minions that the Pact and its allies have to concentrate their resources on defending those fronts. Thus, while the PC might lead a war effort against Joko (for instance), it might be a war effort that can only draw on a fraction of the Pact’s resources, as opposed to Orr where the pact was throwing pretty much everything they had at the problem. (Which could be another way of presenting choices: “We can requisition X or Y, but one of those will be needed to fight a destroyer hive that’s appeared in location Z, so we can’t have both – which shall we request?”)

In fact, if it’s soon enough after Zhaitan’s fall, the Pact forces might even remain tied up consolidating their hold on Orr.

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Posted by: EdwinLi.1284

EdwinLi.1284

Well with Zhaitan out of the way we can access Cantha again lore wise. However, what will happen when we go to Cantha is up to Anet. However, the boat ride to Cantha is a good way to introduce the DSD minions. Basically while half way to Cantha our Pact Ships become under attack by the DSD minions and we have to fight them off as part of the Personal Story mission.

After all the Dragons are not bound to their current territory and with the Undead Navy gone it leaves room for the DSD to expand his reach in the world.

If we want to reach Elona we need to deal with Kralkatorrik first since he is somewhere in the Crystal Desert (most likely that giant corrupted spot on the map) unless he begins to flee to Elona as a sign he has not fully recovered yet from his injuries.

(edited by EdwinLi.1284)

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Posted by: Narcemus.1348

Narcemus.1348

Alright, I know that the topic has moved away from this a little bit, but I wanted to put out there what my original thought had been about the Elder Dragons. I mean the ED’s are all about corruption, changing beings and nature from their normal form to meet the needs of the Dragon. So I decided to look at it a little differently, in as what the Elder Dragons choose to corrupt.

This is the listing of how I had imagined the Elder Dragons being based off of what I know about them:

Jormag – Corruption of the Mind
Kralkatorrik – Corruption of the Body
Zhaitan – Corruption of the Soul
Primordius – Corruption of the Earth
DSD – Corrpution of the Sea
Six – Corruption of Nature

Now let me explain what I mean. Primordius, DSD, and Six are relatively simple from what we know about them. These dragons do not corrupt the living sentient beings and turn them into their minions (from what we know) but instead change the very fabric of the world around them and make it theirs. For example Primordius takes the rock and stone around them and molds it into his mindless minions, same from what we have had explained about the DSD, he takes the water and forms it into tentacled beasts. Now at this point in time adding Six to this is merely a guess at best. We know very little about him as a dragon except that he has some connection to nature in general.

Now the later 3 are a little more difficult to explain, so I will start with Jormag from the book Edge of Destiny. Now it is well known and understandable that when creatures come into Jormag’s service that their body becomes corrupted and eventually becomes ice. Similarly when creatures are transformed by Kralkatorrik their wills become that of the dragon. So how do I draw the line as to which dragon corrupts the body and which corrupts the soul? Well in Edge of Destiny when the group goes to fight the champion of Jormag much of the fight has to do with protecting the mind. You see creatures that come to Jormag do so by having their mind taken over first, then slowly their body changes to reflect the mind that controls them. In the opposing way the battle against Kralkatorrik very little had to do with protecting their minds against the elder dragon, and when Kralkatorrik corrupts its foes it does so in a sudden blast changing their form then and there. And in fact Kralkatorrik’s mind is shown to be actually rather weak, compared to the mind of Jormag, because I highly doubt that any sentient being would attempt to intrude into the mind of Jormag, out of all the Elder Dragons.

Lastly, but also relatively simply is Jormag who I see as the corruption of the soul. Now, I recently went into Mount Maelstrom last night and saw a vigil crusader’s soul that explains that her body is out there somewhere fighting against her fellow comrades, so this has recently conflicted with my original thought that Zhaitan would take the souls of the dead and force them into their original bodies and force them to his will. This seems like an extremely difficult way to create minions, but it also makes some sense as to why the undead seem to be grateful in many instances after they die, saying things like “at last” or “finally.” My only thought on things there is that perhaps Zhaitan only traps a part of the soul within the body, the amount necessary to power the undead without requiring constant magical energies from himself, but not enough to give them a free will.

Now these are just thoughts that have been rumbling around in my mind for a while so I thought I would throw them out there. Feel free to correct any of my mistakes.

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Posted by: Stumpy Boulderchunk.6482

Stumpy Boulderchunk.6482

Perhaps my theory warrants its own thread, but I think the Elder Dragons are tied directly to the Six Gods.

Primordus – Balthazar
Jormag – Dwayna
Zhaitan – Grenth
Kralkatorrik – Lyssa
DSD – Abaddon
Six – Melandru

I have three main reasons for believing this theory:

1. Each God’s colors correspond with a dragon: Primordus/Balthazar are black and red and fiery, Zhaitain and Grenth are fans of green, Lyssa and Kralkatorrik seem to like purple, Jormag and Dwayna are blue, not enough info on DSD to compare to Abaddon (which makes sense considering the tumultuous history of Abaddon’s position as a god), and both Six and Melandru like green.

2. Each dragon represents a corrupted aspect of a particular god:

-Balthazar is the god of war and fire, Primordus is the dragon of destruction.
-Grenth is the god of death, Zhaitan is the dragon of undeath.
-Lyssa is the goddess of illusion and the mind, Kralkatorrik seems to like corrupting and dominating both flesh and mind.
-Dwayna is the goddess of life and purity, and Jormag seems to like corrupting others (A lot like Kralky, but whatevs).
-Abaddon WAS the god of secrets and water, and the DSD is in the deep sea, which is often associated with the unknowable and unspeakable horror. (Also, when considering this theory and the link between Kormir and the DSD, consider that Abaddon was the god of knowledge and ice before being cast out, so really, it would make more sense that the DSD is actually tied to Abaddon.)
-Melandru is the goddess of Earth, and the Sixth dragon seems to be associated with similar aspects.

3. The silence of the gods.

Supposedly, ever since the awakening of the dragons, the Gods have been silent. This, of course, is very likely not a coincidence. My theory is that the Gods have to enter some sort of Odinsleep-like state to maintain their divinity, and the dragons rampaging through Tyria gather power for their associated gods somehow. A lot like the Reapers of Mass Effect, they harvest the civilizations and leave/go back to sleep when sated. But that’s just speculation.

Anyway, that’s just my theory. It fit too perfectly for me to keep it to myself.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

That theory’s been around for yonks, and debunked. You’ve probably noticed yourself that Dwayna is a bit of a stretch, and some of the other matchups you’ve made are also stretching a bit (for instance, why is Jormag apparently the strongest at mental corruption of Kralkatorrik is the equivalent of the goddess of mesmers?). You can make some matchups that work, but no-one has managed to get a one-to-one matchup.

It seems more likely that the matchups that are there are there because the dragons and gods are drawing from the same pool of concepts, and thus they appear similar – for instance, the god of fire and the dragon of fire appear similar, even if beyond fire and the things associated with fire they have little in common.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I find difficult to believe that Arenanet will make the extermination of these monsters nothing but pest control when they were hyped to be global extinction level event. I agree that making the central point of the storyline would be as boring, but I think it would be a mistake to downplay their threat or impact in the world. Even if we move on to new threats, I think the dragons should be left as the background and perhaps the basic motivation for the future antagonists.

The Pact advances also cause a serious problem of escalation for any threat less menacing than a Dragon. If we face Palawa Joko or the Canthan Empire as enemies, then they will need to be even more powerful and technological or magical advanced than the Pact or even the ED. I doubt the Pact won’t follow us as the second in command, unless it is dissolved o gets bogged down/crushed by one or more of the Dragons.

This is assuming that all of the Elder Dragons will be killed. It may turn out to be that some are unreachable for xyz reason. I think that, at most, only 3 more ED will be killed: Kralkatorrik, Jormag, and possibly Primordus. I think that the DSD, the sixth Elder Dragon and, if not killed, Primordus will remain as “ever present threats” (because lets face it, going underground would be somewhat boring for an entire expansion, whereas Jormag can take us to the Isles of Janthir, Blood Legion Homelands, and even the arctic seas; and Kralkatorrik can lead us into Elona or the east – DSD would be fun, but I don’t think anyone really wants an expansion that’s 90% underwater combat).

The issue of the Pact can be easily solved – their sole purpose is to fight the Elder Dragons, as is the Vigil’s. Once the ED are gone – or at least mostly so – the Pact, and perhaps the Vigil, will also be gone. Furthermore, the Pact has technology specifically made for fighting Elder Dragons, so whatever they have may be useless to fight Joko or the most-likely-to-be technologically advanced Cantha (I just can’t see them going in any other direction considering their population problems and love of military might from Usoku).

@ Stumpy Boulderchunk.6482 Major issue with that is that the tie between Dwayna and Jormag is pretty much non-existing. Furthermore, color-wise, as your argument suggestions, Jormag would be Kormir (both are white) and Dwayna would be the DSD (both are blue), which further doesn’t make sense. Furthermore, Lyssa and Kralkatorrik have little in common outside color, and even Abaddon has purple.

Your power/corruption argument also fails with Lyssa/Kralkatorrik since Zhaitan and Jormag also corrupt the mind.

Abaddon wasn’t the god of ice – ever.

Then you have the fact that in the personal story step “Cathedral of Silence” it’s outright stated that Grenth is opposing to Zhaitan. Grenth seems to be active, and it seems that the gods aren’t actually silent, but rather they are just “elsewhere.” Where that elsewhere is, is unknown (just that it’s not in The Mists).

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

From a cultural standpoint, Cantha could well stagnate just as China did when it went into its most recent isolationist stage (China was the most technologically and scientifically advanced culture in the world a thousand or so years ago). From a metagaming perspective, though, they’ll want to be able to justify firearms and engineering stuff in Cantha, so it’s likely that Cantha will at least be at the Krytan level of technology and probably a little higher (but probably not charr-level – that’s the charr’s schtick.)

And where is it said that the gods aren’t in the Mists? To my eye, it just seems as if they’re not communicating – the Mists are a big place, and it could be that they’re just not in a part of the Mists that’s accessible via the means we currently have of entering/viewing the Mists.

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Posted by: Narcemus.1348

Narcemus.1348

.

Your power/corruption argument also fails with Lyssa/Kralkatorrik since Zhaitan and Jormag also corrupt the mind.

Abaddon wasn’t the god of ice – ever.

I have to point out that I was talking about corruption, not the other guy, and when i was talking about corruption of the mind, body and soul I wasn’t talking about what the dragons eventually corrupted, because in that sense every dragon corrupts every part, but instead I was talking about the way in which the dragons corrupt individuals. Zhaitan seems to kill his enemies then attach their soul to their body and force it to do his will, while Kralkatorrik’s corruption is much more sudden, by corrupting the body instantaneously which forces the mind to follow shortly after. And Jormag fights more on a personal basis by tearing away a character’s mind and forcing it to his will. After he takes over their mind the body slowly becomes corrupted, eventually becoming a being of corrupted ice.

On a side note, Abaddon was the god of water, which gives sense to the fact that his followers were a major group of seafarers. And that Grenth took over water magic after Abaddon was cast down, changing it to ice attunement.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I have to point out that I was talking about corruption, not the other guy

False:

2. Each dragon represents a corrupted aspect of a particular god:
[…]
-Dwayna is the goddess of life and purity, and Jormag seems to like corrupting others (A lot like Kralky, but whatevs).

Zhaitan seems to kill his enemies then attach their soul to their body and force it to do his will

I wouldn’t really say that. It seems more like the souls are merely imprisoned, not corrupted, as after the death of the body the soul is released and in their perfectly sane non-corrupted self (see: The Source of Orr personal story step)

On a side note, Abaddon was the god of water, which gives sense to the fact that his followers were a major group of seafarers. And that Grenth took over water magic after Abaddon was cast down, changing it to ice attunement.

This is not 100% confirmed. Also, we have learned that Grenth had always had sway over ice, even while a half-god, just as he did over mortality, sorrow, and judgment. He was, prior to being a full-blown god, the “Prince of Ice and Sorrow.”

Furthermore, after Abaddon’s death, Lyssa takes over the aspect of water (per GW2), but Grenth retains ice. And no one takes over knowledge/secrets after Abaddon’s fall, however, prior to Abaddon’s fall Grenth’s priests were known to be secret keepers. So it stands to reason that there was always a bit of an overlap, and Abaddon retained being god of both knowledge and water until his actual death, where water was thus given to Lyssa.

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Posted by: Narcemus.1348

Narcemus.1348

Hmm, I had always thought lyssa retained control over non-elemental chaos magic, as opposed to a certain element, seeing as according to the GW1 lore water attuned elementalists would favor grenth. Now this being said, I have to admit I have yet to finish the GW2 game, and most of my speculation and understanding come from my knowledge of GW1 as opposed to from playing through Orr (which I have not yet entered)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Lyssa’s called the goddess of beauty, illusion, and water in the human biography question. She also represents chaos and other things though.

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Posted by: Narcemus.1348

Narcemus.1348

Intersting, I believe I went with Kormir so i didn’t remember that. I guess I gotta remember lore is changing hourly in this new world.

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Posted by: Redfeather.6401

Redfeather.6401

It would be cool if 5 of the elder dragons are driven by instincts of self-preservation and a hunger to dominate, but the 6th does not. The 6th having transcended it.


Imagine a 6th whose existence is that of self-sacrifice and yielding to the flow of Tyria in order to synchronize and become one with it. That’s gonna be one big elder.

(edited by Redfeather.6401)

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Posted by: Thalador.4218

Thalador.4218

Being the person who influenced Konig’s thread on GW2Guru, I thought I’d throw in my thoughts as well.

While the Elder Dragons do crave to consume the world around them, I’m starting to believe that they also think of it as their purpose to make Tyria a “better” place, according to their own, twisted beliefs. Their suspected rivalry might also originate from their complete disagreement in how to accomplish that.

Primordus: It is known that Primordus is hell bent on killing all living beings made of flesh and blood. Also, he’s never been observed to corrupt organic races, instead he creates “caricatures” of them. To me, it implies that Primordus is disgusted with organic life, and seeks to replace it with better, artifical species that are free of all the “weaknesses and imperfections” that organics possess. However, it might be interesting if he not only wants to preserve the shape of a particular race in Destroyer form, but also their culture. IIRC, there are Destroyer Harpy Matriarchs who boss around the lesser soldiers of Primo’s army.

Jormag: “Strength alone governs this world.” & “Continue to grow, and one day Jormag may grant you true strength.” – the Frost Portal in the NW corner of Frostgorge Sound.

Jormag may not be interested in power only for himself. He might also want to “empower” the whole of the world, believing that by getting rid of the weakness that plagues most beings (those who are not with him), Tyria could be made better. And since he egoistically assumes himself to be the ultimate avatar of power, who else could lead the strong more efficiently than him?

Kralkatorrik: In his insane quest to perfect himself and make himself whole, he might have realized that if he makes others similar to him, they could share in the glory of seeking perfection for him and themselves. Or, he might actually want to strip others of the emotions and feelings that are missing from him, so all Tyria would be akin to him, just not quite as excellent as an Elder Dragon. His love for crystals could also be a form of how he sees perfection, with crystals having the most orderly and neatly-arranged structures in the world.

Zhaitan: I doubt Zhaitan was the Elder Undead Dragon the whole time. I’ll speak of this later, but I actually suspect he was killed or died of something in the distant past, only to return to “life” through undeath. However, during the “A Light in the Darkness,” when Trahearne rallies the Pact in the vision, Zhaitan roars in fear. Later on, in the “Temple of the Forgotten God” and “Estate of Decay/Starving the Beast,” he roars again in mixture of anger and terror. All NPCs believe that the dragon is afraid. If they were correct, it would lead to the ironic conclusion that Zhaitan’s greatest fear is death itself – or rather, to die for a second time, assuming what I said above is true.

As to why he wants to corrupt the world and make it an image of undeath and decay? Grenth’s high priest in the Cathedral of Silence quest sometimes shouts that the Mists are full of lies, and the only true form of immortality is through undeath. In the “Source of Orr,” the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan lashes out when he learns of what we are planning, calling us despoilers and poisoners – implying that Zhaitan thinks he cured the land by flooding it with his essence. In the same battle, the Eye speaks that by joining Zhaitan, one could reclaim all that he or she lost, “living” with their beloved fallen together, forever.

Going back to the assumption of Zhaitan dying once before, he might have had terrible experiences in the time he was dead, and once he returned, he thought he would do the world a favor by sparing others of such fate… while they could protect and sustain him, ensuring he would never have to die again.

>Continuing in the post below<

(edited by Thalador.4218)

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Posted by: Thalador.4218

Thalador.4218

>Continued from the post above<

The Deep Sea Dragon: I personally like to tie the legends about the krait prophet to this enigmatic dragon. In other words: I think the prophet and the dragon are the same, or, in case we are talking about prophets (plural): his champions.

In one krait place of power in the Caledon Forest, it is mentioned that they offer sacrifices to the prophet who will return one day and flood all the surface lands of the continent (sounds very much like what a water-based Elder Dragon would do.) The other one in the Flooded Castavall (Bloodtide Coast) says the following: “Deep in the dark belly of the cave, close to the heart of the planet, a primal force surges through the water. Its presence calls to those who desire power and strength.”

Combining these two (and assuming that the prophet = DSD), I’d think that the DSD’s mental “defect” is the combination of Primordus’ and Jormag’s. That is, he desires to empower the worthy sea creatures (would explain why the krait are so brutal… they may want to please the prophet) but kill off the land-dwellers.

The Sixth: Going along with Konig’s theory about it being related to poison and deadly vegetation, it could be possible that this dragon would consider itself the avatar of natural selection: filling Tyria with its poisons to ensure that only the “strong and adaptive” survive.

The Seventh (?): I know the people who’d want there to be a seventh are few, but I like to believe that there’s a Seventh Elder Dragon in Cantha, who is benevolent and is connected to Air and Stars, with Kuunavang being its “champion.”

And THAT would bring up an interesting question that I partially brought up in Zhaitan’s section: Were the dragons always like this?

It first occured to me while listening to the OST for Zhaitan. It felt like it told the tragic tale of a once-majestic creature that fell to complete depravity, insanity and corruption. What if the dragons were corrupted in mind by something else, or as their power grew, they started to become arrogant and envious of each other and the world? One by one, they all fell prey to their twisted ideologies (either through an external force or by themselves) – Zhaitan actually might have died in the process – and began their horrid “crusades” of corruption and consumption against Tyria. (I believe they partially cleaned the world of life at least once, assuming the cycle in which the Giganticus Lupicus went extinct had happened before the Dwarves-Forgotten-Jotun-Mursaat-Seer one, but it’s irrelevant right now.)

If we take the “dragons have always been here” line from the 2009 teaser trailer into consideration, it might be possible the dragons were sort of shepherds and/or guardians at the dawn of time, but over time they changed. Would be funny if they grew envious/hateful of the mortal creatures they guided for reasons mentioned in the post above and rebelled against the will of the being who had tasked them in the first place. (Thinking of the inspiration for Zhaitan’s name and the entity it represents.)

I will speak more about who I’d think their “ex-boss” (in this particular theory) is at a later time.

(edited by Thalador.4218)

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Posted by: EdwinLi.1284

EdwinLi.1284

@Thalador

Ya the Elder dragons are a mystery. With their different ideals it difficult for now what each Elder Dragon goals are.
We know they eat magic as food and they’re not doing all these things as mindless creatures but for their own agenda. Only mystery now is the Elder Dragon’s past, what their goals are and how did they end up like this.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Elder Dragons were the original gods of the world before they fell to their 1000 year slumber that Jotun mentioned and before the 6 gods arrived in the world.
If we’re lucky Anet may release something in the Halloween event to allow us to understand Zhaitan’s reason for his actions, if Anet plans on it as part of the 4 Act Halloween Story Anet have already announced starting on October 22nd.

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Posted by: Narcemus.1348

Narcemus.1348

I doubt they will do much in the realm of dragon lore for the Halloween party. I mean they usually had decent lore drops during their holidays in GW1, but nothing on a major extent. Then again this is Guild Wars 2 not the original so I would be definitely excited if they proved me wrong

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Closer to 10,000 year slumber – though more specifically, about 11,000 years.

We know that the ED have woken more than twice – according to jotun history at least, as well. Though the Priory say that the GL died out during their last awakening. If the ED slumber for roughly 10,000 years each time, then the previous time they were awake would have been about 20,000 BE.

Regarding the Eye’s dialogue – keep in mind that he mentions, I believe, that your mentor is waiting with Zhaitan even if you went Priory where your mentor was a sylvari – so that line is more of psychological warfare (as is much of what the Sovereign Eye says, by how I took it). Though a fun thought I had regarding him saying that we’re poisoning the land was: what if the Elder Dragons’ corruption is how Tyria is meant to be? That is to say, the Elder Dragons are merely putting Tyria into its “true form” and that the races are, instead, corrupting it.

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Posted by: Narcemus.1348

Narcemus.1348

Well then it wouldn’t necessarily be the races corrupting it, but the gods. When they came to Tyria perhaps it was a much different place, and they ‘corrupted’ it to their standards. This would lend credibility to the theory that the Elder Dragons were once the ‘gods’ of Tyria.

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Posted by: Andele.1306

Andele.1306

BTW on the god thing, Lyss, Grenth and Dwayna each got seperate aspects of water (Lyss with liquid, Grenth solid, Dwayna gas) Abbadon was the Seas as Melandru is the Earth (oceans and continents), overall they share different parts of the elemental spectrum, but not specific power of all parts of a element. Water eles were under grenth because most of their spells (even now) are ice based (despite them not generally fitting his theme of undeath and judgement, just as air never really fit dwayna since weakening a enemy is against her techings), now they would go much more to Dwaynas domain because they are actually fully focused on both water and healing.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

The Seventh (?): I know the people who’d want there to be a seventh are few, but I like to believe that there’s a Seventh Elder Dragon in Cantha, who is benevolent and is connected to Air and Stars, with Kuunavang being its “champion.”

Or to continue with the theory of obsessions, it could be that the Canthan dragon’s obsession is to craft the perfect civilisation – and it’s adopted the Empire of Cantha as the best available starting point. This would naturally mean it’d be less destructive than the others, but it still might not really be benevolent – its idea of the perfect civilisation may be different to ours, or, like other dragons, it might want to cover the world with the civilisation it has adopted.

Another interesting direction it could take is if once the Canthan dragon learns of what’s happening in Tyria, it might decide that one of the Tyrian civilisations, or even all of Tyrian civilisation as a group, might be more worthy of its sponsorship than Cantha…

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Posted by: EdwinLi.1284

EdwinLi.1284

Ya when the 6 gods arrived in Tyria the land was basically damage from a Ancient conflict that has long been forgotten. That conflict most like was the last battle against the Elder Dragons before they went to slumber.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Well then it wouldn’t necessarily be the races corrupting it, but the gods. When they came to Tyria perhaps it was a much different place, and they ‘corrupted’ it to their standards.

Except that there were races before the gods, and uncorrupted life at the time – which is what I was going to. If I recall correctly, there’s been mention of forgotten finding a means to have immunity to dragon corruption (outside of giving Glint free will) from the Arah dungeon path – this could mean that they “fixed” the world in the past (could be why they’re called caretakers) – and then there’s the seers having collected “uncorrupted magic” into the original Bloodstone.

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Posted by: EdwinLi.1284

EdwinLi.1284

Well there may be a 7th Elder dragon because so far we are only aware that the Elder Dragons awakened near or in Tyria. However, it is only with in Tyria area so we don’t know if there are Elder Dragons we don’t know about awakening in Cantha nor Elona because those 2 continents were cut off from Tyria. There could be even more Elder Dragons beyond Tyria, Cantha, and Elona in continents we did not get to explore in GW1 because Anet scrapped expanding on GW1 for EotN to prepare for GW2.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

The sixth Elder Dragon may not be on continental Tyria either, truth be told. 3 was enough, and a 4th is heading south to Tyria (Jormag).