[Video] Necromancer's Lower Downed HP

[Video] Necromancer's Lower Downed HP

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Posted by: OmegaProject.9831

OmegaProject.9831

Good day folks. I have decided to put together a video showcasing the hypothesis that the Necromancer has lower Downed State HP than other classes. While it is not proof that the hypothesis is true, it is certainly evidence.

Video Here

Method: Care was taken to remove any possible variables present. Here are precautions that were taken:

  • All recordings and measurements were taken in the exact same area. Both characters are at lvl 80, but leveled down to 13. Neither character had any food boosts.
  • The Ice Wurm’s attacks were uniform and predictable. If there was a “Critical Hit” or “Glancing Blow” while the character was downed, the observation was discounted.
  • The Necromancer had all gear removed and all traits emptied.
  • The Warrior had all gear removed and all traits emptied.
  • All WvW bonuses were accounted for. The recordings in the video are taken within 15 minutes of each other. No new bonuses occurred during this time span.
  • While only one video was shown of each downed state, there were many more iterations performed behind the scenes. The above videos simply showcase the most frequent occurrences.
  • Timing for downed state began when the HP “Bubble” at the bottom of the screen began to fill when downed. Timing ended when the skills for Downed State completely disappeared. This was done to keep uniformity in measurements.
  • The Warrior was used due to its identical passive HP pool to the Necromancer.

Results:

  • The Necromancer had an approximate downed time of 13;06 for the above video.
  • The Warrior had an approximate downed time of 21;19 for the above video.
  • The Necromancer survived approximately 4 strikes by the Wurm when no glancing blows or criticals were made.
  • The Warrior survived approximately 6 strikes by the Wurm when no glancing blows or criticals were made.
  • The Necromancer suffered 12 ticks on Downed State Degeneration.
  • The Warrior suffered 21 ticks of Downed State Degeneration.

Should the health numbers appearing when downed be trusted, we have:

  • Necromancer illustrated approximately 962 HP while downed.
  • Warrior illustrated approximately 2824 HP while downed.

Conclusion: There is good reason to believe that the Warrior has more Downed State HP than the Necromancer in PvE (when downleveled and in a level 80 zone). I cannot make any conclusions about other classes in comparison to the Necromancer.

I apologize for the informal presentation of the above information. I do not have time to offer more numbers and analysis. My sample size was, unfortunately, fairly small due to my time constraints. However, due to the disparaging difference in numbers observed, I suspect more iterations would produce results that were similar to the above incidents.

Have a nice day!

Update
In order to remove any more potential variables, the experiment was repeated in Frostgorge Sound, where there was no downleveling. The same foe was used and the exact same conditions were met as stated above. These are the findings after one iteration of testing:

  • The Necromancer had an approximate downed time of ~13 seconds.
  • The Warrior had an approximate downed time of ~21 seconds.
  • The Necromancer survived 4 strikes by the Wurm when no glancing blows or criticals were made.
  • The Warrior survived 6 strikes by the Wurm when no glancing blows or criticals were made.
  • The Necromancer suffered 13 ticks on Downed State Degeneration.
  • The Warrior suffered 21 ticks of Downed State Degeneration.

Should the health numbers appearing when downed be trusted, we have:

  • Necromancer illustrated approximately 15,301 HP while downed.
  • Warrior illustrated approximately 43,846HP while downed.

(edited by OmegaProject.9831)

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Posted by: Targuil.3741

Targuil.3741

Thanks for your input. Now we even got some video footage supporting the conclusion of my test (at least when downleveled). Method used is very valid (though different from mine) and pretty hard (read: impossible) to argue against.

Though, as a control group, I’d like to see this being tested in spvp too even though it could be pretty hard to do so.

Anet, it’s time to fix this and not “feel” it’s alright.

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Posted by: OmegaProject.9831

OmegaProject.9831

Hrm, your statement pointed out a variable I missed — namely that there could be an error in the downleveling algorithm. While I severely doubt this is the case, when time is available I may enter a level 80 zone and find a foe where attacks are predictable and constant. I may or may not provide video evidence of those findings (if I get around to testing it). And thank you very much Targuil for bringing this bug to the attention of the community!

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Posted by: kfcoco.8470

kfcoco.8470

This is great and hope brings some more attention to the issue.

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Posted by: Targuil.3741

Targuil.3741

There are some similar wurms in Frostgorge sound, near Claw of Jormag claw event. Not sure if it is level 80 zone though.

About the downscaling, I know for sure that lich’s bonus power is bugged for downscaled (maybe non-lvl80), resulting in almost zero bonus power (it is 2×916=1836 at lvl 80). Doubt it is the case here though as the video shows.

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Posted by: OmegaProject.9831

OmegaProject.9831

You are correct Targuil. I just went there and completed a single iteration on both classes (with video recorded) following the above protocol. The results were almost identical to the Downleveled zone. Granted, this is based on a single iteration, but no critical hits or glancing blows were experienced, meaning the only variability in damage is that performed by the wurm’s attack itself.

These results, as stated before, were almost identical to those experienced in the downleveled zone. Take care everyone and have a pleasant day!

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Posted by: Panhauramix.2784

Panhauramix.2784

Keep up the good work! If anybody is on Northern or Denova and would like to test this in WvW, I’ll be glad to die for the cause on my multiples professions and record the time/tick/combat log to help them see the difference.

80’s: Razdhül Necro/Desire Mesmer/ Ykarys War/ Yphrit Ele/
Panhauramix Guardian/Pistoleros Engineer/ Orbite Thief
Gates of Madness – Leader of Homicide Volontaire [HV]

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

Awesome video, thanks! A friend of mine and I were just in Southsun farming with the celebration bonfire boon and decided to duo an event boss. We both got hit with immobilize, then went straight to downed state, where I, the Necromancer was wiped in the next AoE shot while the Ranger lasted 2 shots before getting dead like me. I said, “See, Necromancer has less downed health!”

We re-spawned and went back to try again but still failed.

Edit: Perhaps the low downed state health is part of the profession on purpose, though. The dev’s might just say it is a feature and, “L2P.”

(edited by Anchoku.8142)

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Posted by: OmegaProject.9831

OmegaProject.9831

“You need to master Downed State”

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Posted by: Targuil.3741

Targuil.3741

Edit: Perhaps the low downed state health is part of the profession on purpose, though. The dev’s might just say it is a feature and, “L2P.”

Necromancer does not have this disadvantage in spvp.

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Posted by: Ruruuiye.8912

Ruruuiye.8912

SPvP is all the devs care about.

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Posted by: Dredlord.8076

Dredlord.8076

this is how hard the necro community has to work to get a bug fixed….

it’s kittening ridiculous.

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Posted by: RedSpectrum.1975

RedSpectrum.1975

Yup masters of death alright X’D im sorry it had to be done. But on a serious note, I do hope this gets fixed, like soon. So many chances I couldve rallied but my hp went way too fast.

Shawtell(S. T.-Main), Zen Verani(H. N.), Iyado(A. E.), Rayshia Howen(N. G.), Colace Nzoir( H. R.)

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Posted by: ndrangles.5183

ndrangles.5183

the video gives some good evidence with a solid method behind it. thank you for your work. Anet really needs to give this issue a more serious look.

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Posted by: Unpredictability.4086

Unpredictability.4086

I guess you can kinda make up for it with that Spite minor trait that enables you to do 50% more damage when downed. Does it heal you for 50% more too?

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Posted by: Mimir.4690

Mimir.4690

Great video! Any more evidence we can get is helpful, assuming that a Dev is even lurking in this part of the forums.

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Posted by: HiSaZuL.2843

HiSaZuL.2843

Every few months this topic comes back… in a week it will die out again… and again nobody will bother fixing it. Good effort but just accept the fact that anet isn’t interested in this class. Too many promises that have never been kept so far. Heck I’d rather they didn’t touch it… will end up even more broken.

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Posted by: Execrable.1064

Execrable.1064

I played sPvP this weekend only. I finished my daily sPvP this morning then went into WvW. I lost a 3v1 and was dead before my downed state bar even came up. Note that my sPvP and PvE gear are as similar as they can be. I don’t understand how someone testing this couldn’t just feel this was wrong. Wish I could talk to Powerr or Jon Peters about what they did to determine that nothing was wrong. Wouldn’t it be weird if there was some other factor involved here, like only necros of certain races have this problem? Don’t mean to muddy the waters, I just don’t understand how Powerr and Jon could come to what seems to be so obviously the wrong conclusion.

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

The problem is probably Life Leach. Against a trash mob, it holds steady when traited while draining the mob’s health and can kill making the downed state not terrible. When faced with a more powerful opponent capable of high dps and bursts, the result is less favorable.

I really do not want to wait another month to have this fixed. Other players in a group with me do not have nearly as much time to resurect me when I am downed as I do to help them.

Necromancer’s downed state is pretty good against trash mobs. I will give it that.

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Posted by: JonPeters

JonPeters

Game Design Lead

Next

This video is actually great. Thank you. I see that you have 1/3rd the health. This is not happening to my necromancer on live nor am I seeing it on test. Is this only happening when downleveled?

Jon

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

Life Leech also needs its range increased. It’s aggravating when an engineer or thief can pelt you with their downed some meters away but you’re out of ranger for your leech to hit so you just die without being able to do anything besides the well.

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Posted by: Targuil.3741

Targuil.3741

This video is actually great. Thank you. I see that you have 1/3rd the health. This is not happening to my necromancer on live nor am I seeing it on test. Is this only happening when downleveled?

Jon

No, it is happening happening everywhere outside sPvP.

See my test, and feel free to test it yourself again. But don’t base the conclusion on feels. https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/support/bugs/Necromancer-PvE-downed-state-health/first

(edited by Targuil.3741)

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

This video is actually great. Thank you. I see that you have 1/3rd the health. This is not happening to my necromancer on live nor am I seeing it on test. Is this only happening when downleveled?

Jon

He repeated his tests in a L80 zone Frostgorge Sound above, and has posted his measurements there. They indicate the same thing. Furthermore, I have been experiencing this personally in Fractals, where my necromancer’s downed state is particularly vulnerable compared to my other classes.

Commander Bonwor Fierceblade – [VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle
No Stacking No Skipping No [FGS] Leader

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Posted by: Donedusted.9846

Donedusted.9846

This video is actually great. Thank you. I see that you have 1/3rd the health. This is not happening to my necromancer on live nor am I seeing it on test. Is this only happening when downleveled?
Jon

Hi Jon,

Thanks for the response!

This happens to me all the time in wvw. In fact, my guild wvw commander has become so aware of necro’s low hp in downed state that he asks me to only run tanky/PVT builds in wvw so I minimise my chances of going into downed state, dying almost immediately and rallying the enemy.

It has gotten to the point where I really feel like a liability to my team in wvw. Please fix it!

Thanks again for looking into this!

:)

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Posted by: War Mourner.5168

War Mourner.5168

This video is actually great. Thank you. I see that you have 1/3rd the health. This is not happening to my necromancer on live nor am I seeing it on test. Is this only happening when downleveled?

Jon

Just tested with multiple guild mates in wvw. They would heal me (20k hp) for 600hp per tick. 20000/600 = 33.3

Healed another guy for 1400 per tick, but his hp was only 15k. 15000/1400 = 10.7
So that’s a pretty simple test to show that our downed hp is a third of what it should be, assuming the heal ticks are percentage based.

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Posted by: JonPeters

Previous

JonPeters

Game Design Lead

Ok we found a good repro case. It has to do with how death shroud and downed used to interact. I will get someone on it today and try and get a fix to you all asap.

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Posted by: Brutal Arts.6307

Brutal Arts.6307

Only 9 months. At this rate necro’s will be viable in 2023!

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Posted by: Liquid.9672

Liquid.9672

Thank you for this. I thought about doing the same tests using my Ele but just haven’t had the time. The fact that Jon Peters saw this is great news for Necros. Hopefully they get it figured out soon.

Also, it’s most definitely not happening only when downleveled. I do everything possible to avoid going down in WvW, including running away when I really shouldn’t be, just so I’m not rally fodder for the enemy, because I know if I go down I’m dead.

Zend(ario/imas/iana/ango) – Engi/Ele/Necro/Guardian
[KnT] – Blackgate

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Posted by: RedSpectrum.1975

RedSpectrum.1975

omgomgomg it might finally get fixed
The downstate is very clear for me, my main is a thief, and she lasts way longer on the ground than my necromancer, and that my friends says alot.

Shawtell(S. T.-Main), Zen Verani(H. N.), Iyado(A. E.), Rayshia Howen(N. G.), Colace Nzoir( H. R.)

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Posted by: Kravick.4906

Kravick.4906

Well, at least this bug is now known and being looked at. It is rather disheartening that none of the ANet employees even picked up on this until now. This bug has been around for a LONG time (months) and has been noticed by practically everyone outside of sPvP.

Hopefully this will be an easy fix and we’ll see it finally taken care of sooner rather than later. This is a pretty devastating bug to deal with in WvW.

Stuff goes here.

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

Ok we found a good repro case. It has to do with how death shroud and downed used to interact. I will get someone on it today and try and get a fix to you all asap.

I would like to thank you for this, Jon. I’d also like to personally thank the OP who made a video that clearly shows the problem so that Jon could see it without error and know where to look.

This thread is a very good example of how transparency between ANet and the playerbase should be. Thumbs up all around.

Commander Bonwor Fierceblade – [VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle
No Stacking No Skipping No [FGS] Leader

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Its a shame it took so long to get a decent response. But im just happy we finally did!

Thanks Jon.

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Posted by: Targuil.3741

Targuil.3741

Ok we found a good repro case. It has to do with how death shroud and downed used to interact. I will get someone on it today and try and get a fix to you all asap.

Thanks! I hope to see it in the next patch.

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Posted by: OmegaProject.9831

OmegaProject.9831

Ok we found a good repro case. It has to do with how death shroud and downed used to interact. I will get someone on it today and try and get a fix to you all asap.

<3

Thank you for the quick replies! This little Necro certainly appreciates your time and courtesy. Have a nice day!

EDIT: And a huge thank you to Targuil, the hero of the Necromancers

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Posted by: Panhauramix.2784

Panhauramix.2784

Guys/Gals we finally made it! Thanks Jon for testing it more thoroughly and giving us a nice quick feedback!

And to whoever said to me that it wasn’t due to DS interaction way back when Targuil documented this bug, well I’ll be kitten I was right! Mommy, did you look at your grown up boy!!!

80’s: Razdhül Necro/Desire Mesmer/ Ykarys War/ Yphrit Ele/
Panhauramix Guardian/Pistoleros Engineer/ Orbite Thief
Gates of Madness – Leader of Homicide Volontaire [HV]

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Posted by: Login.5102

Login.5102

Thanks john!!

BTW I don’t care what other plays say, death shroud management is what sets the good necros apart from the bad ones

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Posted by: Loyo.8526

Loyo.8526

John Peters has came to give a response? wait, 2 responses!?

Pinch me, I must be dreaming. this is a happy moment.

Khloe Deschanel – Human Necromancer/ Swiss Mango – Human Thief
[ASTC] – HoD
I stream sometimes: http://www.twitch.tv/kidtofu/

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Posted by: HiSaZuL.2843

HiSaZuL.2843

Only 9 months. At this rate necro’s will be viable in 2023!

You sir made me smile. My tiny hat goes to you.

On side note… I’ve heard the “we are going to get on it asap”…. a few times now. Hmm funny, I can’t recall a time when something was actually done after the promise, except for that one time when love translated into massive nerf. But you never know… my birthday is coming up maybe the universe is tossing me a bd present >_>

(edited by HiSaZuL.2843)

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Posted by: Mimir.4690

Mimir.4690

Ok we found a good repro case. It has to do with how death shroud and downed used to interact. I will get someone on it today and try and get a fix to you all asap.

Yes, thank you!

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

I highly doubt this will be in the patch going live tomorrow because it’ll still have to go through QA, but I expect it will be in the patch at the end of the month.

Commander Bonwor Fierceblade – [VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle
No Stacking No Skipping No [FGS] Leader

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Posted by: Ruruuiye.8912

Ruruuiye.8912

Ok we found a good repro case. It has to do with how death shroud and downed used to interact. I will get someone on it today and try and get a fix to you all asap.

Thank you!

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Posted by: Kardiamond.6952

Kardiamond.6952

Ok we found a good repro case. It has to do with how death shroud and downed used to interact. I will get someone on it today and try and get a fix to you all asap.

<3

Thank you for the quick replies! This little Necro certainly appreciates your time and courtesy. Have a nice day!

EDIT: And a huge thank you to Targuil, the hero of the Necromancers

Quick Replies?

We posted this bug so many time.

We posted it here, we posted it on the bug sub forum, we posted it in WvW.

We even got a reply in WvW by a moderator saying They had someone looking at it. Yet Jon didn’t seem to know about it.

I think there is a communication issue someone

Nonethless, thanks Jon for answering. I might sound ungratful, but this is a huge bug in WvW and we made so much effort to reach Anet.

Is making a video the way to make it known?

Is posting on the bug forum useless?

Rotthen (Necro) / Zhyx (Engineer) /Inglorious Beasterd (Ranger)
Server : Anvil Rock (Since Release!) [SOLO]

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Posted by: Undertow.2389

Undertow.2389

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Posted by: BobJoeXXI.2493

BobJoeXXI.2493

I can’t believe that it takes a video to actually make the developers notice the problem. This bug has been announced for about a month now and probably known about for longer.

Apicharr Science [ASci] – Maguuma
80 Necro, 80 Ranger, 80 Warrior, 80 Mesmer, 80 Engineer.

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Posted by: kailin.4905

kailin.4905

Man now I wish I would have kept recording. I would have about 400+hours of video of my pets not attacking so we could get that fixed lol. Anyway thanks JP for posting and getting on this fix.

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Posted by: Execrable.1064

Execrable.1064

Thanks for taking another look at this Jon. We really appreciate it.

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Posted by: ThePainTrain.8601

ThePainTrain.8601

Hmm..I feel i need to propose my own hypothesis here.

PERHAPS the devs would be more willing to communicate effectively with the community if said community didn’t kitten and whine about time frames after they just got EXACTLY what they wanted?

Either way, GJ devs..keep up the good work <—- see how easy that was?

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Posted by: HiSaZuL.2843

HiSaZuL.2843

You didn’t even get the fix and you are all too happy already. I recall a LOT of promises. So far don’t actually remember any that were necro related that were kept in any way, shape or form. More often then not there was 180 turn and something completely opposite was done.
And again 9 months later. Better then never but give me a bloody break. It was discussed so many times here its funny. About as many times as reanimator, a bit less maybe.

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Posted by: Chesire.9043

Chesire.9043

I can’t believe that it takes a video to actually make the developers notice the problem. This bug has been announced for about a month now and probably known about for longer.

I’m not sure if it was the video, but rather the depth of the testing on the communities part to show the proof of it all. Of course this is just speculation on my part.

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Posted by: TheAgedGnome.7520

TheAgedGnome.7520

Ok we found a good repro case. It has to do with how death shroud and downed used to interact. I will get someone on it today and try and get a fix to you all asap.

Thank you!!

Stealth nerfs are the perfect fertilizer for mistrust.