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Posted by: Prince.3682

Prince.3682

There are actually a couple issues I’ll bring up here and I know it’s been brought up before but here’s a good example of the rendering bug with thief stealth. Some people seem to think it doesn’t happen in sPVP much but it does. Not every time but certainly noticeable.

When the thief stealths, he is able to get off 4 full shots off before even starting to become visible and isn’t fully rendered until shot 5 or 6. His dagger set was on CD from weapon swap but what usually happens is a series of heartseekers from stealth after c/d+bs which makes the.

Next issue is that air runes are broken. I survive the rendering bug to own myself with 5107 crit from their air rune lightning strike. And to rub salt in the rune his fire sigil proced for 1222 on the air crit lol. So 6229 damage just from attacking. Lot of teams stacking fire sigils too for the aoe zerg fights lately. Fire sigil is really strong but air runes are just stupid.

And just as a point of observation and comparison, his short bow auto attack crit for 1408 at the end there while my lightning auto attack crit for 188. (I’m also using berserkers) Ele dps got nerfed hard during and after beta and thieves got brought up big time. Such is life I suppose.

One more issue worth mentioning is warrior bladetrail is hitting for some absurd numbers in in spvp still.

(edited by Moderator)

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Posted by: Daays.4317

Daays.4317

Makes you wonder if it has to do with blocks/dodges/misses/evades.

If you watch the slowmo, you get “miss” “block” “evade” then he hits you and at that time is revealed instantly.

Also, and this is when you play him again 1v1 in the future, Payne really enjoys starting with shortbow, dodge, 2x shortbow dodge, then engaging. He’ll use that opener almost every time.

(edited by Daays.4317)

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Posted by: Bongsta.2018

Bongsta.2018

Makes you wonder if it has to do with blocks/dodges/misses/evades.

If you watch the slowmo, you get “miss” “block” “evade” then he hits you and at that time is revealed instantly.

correct!!

stealth breaks on next HIT so miss , block and evade are not hits..

To add to that thiefs are easy to beat but you look very squishy.. you made some sort of glass cannon build?

(edited by Bongsta.2018)

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Posted by: Noctred.6732

Noctred.6732

Next issue is that air runes are broken.

Yeah, brought that up in another thread recently after a necro crit himself with it for 6.5k (followed by a ~2k air sigil proc for roughly 8.5k instaburst) – random procs should never do that kind of damage.

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Posted by: Prince.3682

Prince.3682

I blinded him before going into stealth, so that accounts for the first miss, I also put up arcane shield; does that not make them revealed if it blocks? Very interesting. Pretty lame actually lol I concede however all the same if he rendered properly afterall.

I’ll pay more attention to see if the render bug I’ve been thinking was there was just me dodging backstab. But even still, I’m almost certain there are times that a theif has executed full bs combo and is already chunking heartseekers out before he’s even visible to me.

And yes, I’m squishy, I play dps. Even though with that build I have a whole 20 points into an offensive tree. Yes thieves are easier if I want to wear different amulet for toughness and do even less damage against the other 7 classes in the game. I don’t think thief should be the only class that is widely accepted as viable to play as glass. Really not the point of this thread anyway.

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Posted by: MindlessRuff.1948

MindlessRuff.1948

You are ele getting hit by a glass cannon thief as a glass cannon, if you cannot hit your spells and cc his kitten properly, you are going to die.

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Posted by: Pyrial.2917

Pyrial.2917

Yeah, if you can’t hit something you can’t target or see, then you deserve to be punished….omg the ignorance.

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Posted by: JonathanSharp

JonathanSharp

Game Design Lead

Next

Ya, it was a visual culling bug. It will be fixed next patch.

Cheers.

IGN: Chaplan
“Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.”
-Arthur Schopenhauer

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Posted by: Aga.8641

Aga.8641

Stealth rending is going to be fixed on the 15th?! About time.

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Posted by: Rhydian.5412

Rhydian.5412

I like this guys solution.

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Posted by: Prince.3682

Prince.3682

Nice, glad I wasn’t going crazy after all. Thanks for responding on the render issue and really good it will be fixed. Is there any official stance on air rune damage?

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Posted by: ehtom.5047

ehtom.5047

@Rhydian: I loled hard that that vid. So true.

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Posted by: Zatria.5783

Zatria.5783

Can we get an official comment on Rhydian’s video?

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Posted by: Relentliss.2170

Relentliss.2170

So was everyone drunk at Anet when they thought it was a good idea that Thieves could attack and NOT become instantly visible?

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Posted by: GankSinatra.2653

GankSinatra.2653

Makes you wonder if it has to do with blocks/dodges/misses/evades.

If you watch the slowmo, you get “miss” “block” “evade” then he hits you and at that time is revealed instantly.

No. I dont see why there is still this confusion about this. You can easily test it. Spam TAB after a thief stealths, and you can target his invisible body which is walking around, seeing only a red arrow. This state takes about 2-3 seconds which makes stealth last about twice as long as it should..

Anyway about time it got fixed. It was about the dumbest things i’ve ever seen in a competative game. Thanks.

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Posted by: shiNn.2571

shiNn.2571

Jonathan could you give me only ONE reason why fixxes dont come instant?
Why do you wait for them if you know, and fixxed the problem?
Why do you let your community become more and more MAD?

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Posted by: Payneful.7934

Payneful.7934

The reason I didn’t become revealed when I shot my arrows is because you dodged and blocked them all. This is just part of the game.

What ended up happening is my stealth ran out, and if you look carefully you should notice that I become targeted the instant I get out of stealth. The only problem is my character does not become fully opaque until a second later (which is the rendering issue they are going to fix). But that isn’t a big deal because I was targeted regardless.

Getting a fire sigil and air rune proc at the same time is just lucky.

Also, I have to say it……. I get absolutely blown up by glass cannon eles. I dodged both phoenix and fire grab at the start which would have destroyed me. Eles can put out just as much burst damage as I can on my thief. You just have to hit me with it first. I lose 1v1 almost every time to an ele in my guild. So, I’m sorry I have to say this, but there is a skill issue here.

Payne [PTC] Thief
Pancakes To Celebrate

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Posted by: Grimspire.5148

Grimspire.5148

Payneful.7934

This is just part of the game.

Err, did you miss the part where the ArenaNet guy said there was a problem and that it would be fixed?

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Posted by: Sprawl.3891

Sprawl.3891

The reason I didn’t become revealed when I shot my arrows is because you dodged and blocked them all. This is just part of the game.

What ended up happening is my stealth ran out, and if you look carefully you should notice that I become targeted the instant I get out of stealth. The only problem is my character does not become fully opaque until a second later (which is the rendering issue they are going to fix). But that isn’t a big deal because I was targeted regardless.

Getting a fire sigil and air rune proc at the same time is just lucky.

Also, I have to say it……. I get absolutely blown up by glass cannon eles. I dodged both phoenix and fire grab at the start which would have destroyed me. Eles can put out just as much burst damage as I can on my thief. You just have to hit me with it first. I lose 1v1 almost every time to an ele in my guild. So, I’m sorry I have to say this, but there is a skill issue here.

oblivious to red post above

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Posted by: Payneful.7934

Payneful.7934

Sprawl and Grimspire. When I said “This is just part of the game”, I’m talking about the fact that when a thief misses attacks in stealth, the thief will not be reveled until he hits something or his stealth runs out.

The stealth bug they are going to fix is the one that makes it so when a thief has just exited stealth he will not be fully opaque.

Payne [PTC] Thief
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Posted by: Prince.3682

Prince.3682

“So, I’m sorry I have to say this, but there is a skill issue here.”

Just wow if you think a 6200 rng factor is a measure of skill for you or against me. If you feel that is working as intended then bravo to your pro dice rolling abilities.

Really man, this thread had nothing to do with skill issues so saying that just makes you look like another thief who couldn’t wait to tell someone to l2p

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Posted by: Payneful.7934

Payneful.7934

Just pointing out a fact Prince. I didn’t even need the fire sigil or air rune proc to win that 1v1. If you miss your big damaging abilities and I hit mine, you are going to lose, and that’s just what happened.

Point is, ele is a great class and the glass cannon version is very viable in capable hands.

Payne [PTC] Thief
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Posted by: Prince.3682

Prince.3682

Don’t act so conceited. Look at the vid again: I’m not pure glass – I had vigor and regen going, an endurance bar ready and a dodge roll into water would have given me double heals, then water-5 for another – I would have bounced back enough to keep at it.

But I’m sure you feel the air runes and thief shortbow damage is all balanced as is thus discussing the actual battle is pointless anyway.

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Posted by: Payneful.7934

Payneful.7934

It sounds as if you feel you should have won that 1v1. Maybe you think that I unjustly won that because of overpowered abilities. The truth is, even if I didn’t have air runes or the fire sigil, I still would have won that fight because you screwed up.

Let me give you a list of what you did wrong.
-You missed ride the lightning, updraft, phoenix and fire grab (seriously….. you missed all 4, GG)
-You wasted time by starting to cast water 5 but cancelled it to cast your main heal.
-You wasted dodge while arcane shield was up, causing the buff to run out instead of blocking one more hit and doing damage to me.

Don’t put the blame elsewhere when it’s clear that you didn’t play nearly as well as you could have.

Payne [PTC] Thief
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Posted by: Payneful.7934

Payneful.7934

More air rune lolz enclosed:

Seriously…… you obviously had frenzy up when you were hit by that. You’re not fooling anyone lol!

Payne [PTC] Thief
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Posted by: Prince.3682

Prince.3682

Was this thread about a 1v1 or about the air runes and render bug? hm? You’re really trying hard to make it a ‘you suck, l2p’ discussion and ignoring the original topic.

I mean, what’s your point anyway? I obviously screwed up, so what? Watch some of my other vids where I wreck people of whatever class. I win some and I lose some. You obviously had the upper hand in this particular battle but don’t expect me to honor your victory when you win with broken or imbalanced abilities and call me out for screwing up.

You’re acting like I called you out for something; this has nothing to do with you specifically in the first place.

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Posted by: Noctred.6732

Noctred.6732

Payneful.7934

Seriously…… you obviously had frenzy up when you were hit by that. You’re not fooling anyone lol!

I’m not sure why anyone would advocate the existence of a RNG proc that has the potential to instaburst half of a player’s hp pool.

I mean, even without frenzy, that was still almost a 9k hit… from a random proc. You really think that’s healthy for a competitive game?

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Posted by: Prince.3682

Prince.3682

Actually I wasn’t using frenzy, I was auto attacking then hunderp blading the corpse of the thief after he was already dead but even if I was using frenzy, see post just above.

Thats ok though, what about next image attached? 9.4k steal. Happy with that balance? (No frenzy, thats on my ele)

You’re obviously a decent player but you’re using an ez-mode class with tons of evasion and insane burst – gloating or calling others out for screwing up is unsightly. No need to make this matter personal.

Attachments:

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Posted by: Payneful.7934

Payneful.7934

Payneful.7934

Seriously…… you obviously had frenzy up when you were hit by that. You’re not fooling anyone lol!

I’m not sure why anyone would advocate the existence of a RNG proc that has the potential to instaburst half of a player’s hp pool.

I mean, even without frenzy, that was still almost a 9k hit… from a random proc. You really think that’s healthy for a competitive game?

I’m not defending the air runes existence. I’m just laughing at the fact that Prince posted a picture of a lightning strike while he is frenzied and thinking that proves something.

Payne [PTC] Thief
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Posted by: Payneful.7934

Payneful.7934

Actually I wasn’t using frenzy, I was auto attacking then hunderp blading the corpse of the thief after he was already dead but even if I was using frenzy, see post just above.

Thats ok though, what about next image attached? 9.4k steal. Happy with that balance? (No frenzy, thats on my ele)

You’re obviously a decent player but you’re using an ez-mode class with tons of evasion and insane burst – gloating or calling others out for screwing up is unsightly. No need to make this matter personal.

Don’t worry this isn’t personal. I’m just being logical. You have to admit though, you messed up by missing ride the lightning, updraft, phoenix, and fire grab.

And cmon now…. “ez mode class with tons of evasion and burst”. You’re using a slightly more difficult class with tons of healing, versatility, utility and burst.

I also need to ask that thief how the hell he did that 9k steal, because I’ve never been able to get close to that. Or maybe this image was taken before the assassin signet change and he used it before he used steal.

Payne [PTC] Thief
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(edited by Payneful.7934)

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Posted by: Prince.3682

Prince.3682

Its obviously personal – you passed over the actual topic to call me specifically out for screwing up in the skirmish. That’s bringing it to a personal level. Nothing to do with being logical.

And do you really want to get into dps ele vs dps thief discussion?

Its not so much that I screwed up anything anyhow – you auto attack for the better part of 2k per hit and double evade + double disabling shot to evade all of my limited burst potential (pretty obvious if a s/d ele is up close to dodge btw) and used your steal (c’mon, you gotta admit that’s ez-mode burst) to evade my firegrab. I got away from most of your dagger dps after that and once I healed and turned around to go on the offensive you just stealthed away to come back at your leisure and when you reappeared I owned myself to your rune procs. And your flame sigls proc’d did nearly 3k damage in that fight. In total rng made up close to 8k damage overall. Proud of that? I wouldn’t be, nor would I expect such features to remain in the game as is.

Thief has a lot of built in safety and evasion is > healing.

Your attacks in general are quicker and higher in damage and easier to land. And mine have quite long CDs attached. ele attacks are also notoriously easy to see coming. You realize your spammable hs vs low health does more damage than my firegrab on a 45s cd? Not to mention yours has auto-aim built in and is on-demand. Nevermind that firegrab hits like an auto-attack without burning up on you. Your steal is instant damage, and even double damage with precharged c/d, more than any of my attacks.

And as for that fight specifically I was at a disadvantage to begin with due to having mist form off cd, and a utility I would only use at node teamfights. I don’t want to make excuses; I did lose the fight ultimately – but at the same time I wouldn’t have you feel high and mighty over it either.

One more case in point however – I ended the video upload before the part where my engi teammate respawns just after I go down there and finishes you off quickly and easily; point being that you must have been forced to use enough initiative and utilities to leave you vulnerable. Meaning had I bounced back with heals instead of burst down from rng I think it would be a much tougher fight for you than you’d like to admit.

And no, that steal screenshot was taken last night in a random pug tourney.

Again, the point of the thread was the rendering bug and air runes being straight up broken. Nothing to do with theif, or ele, or 1v1 duels, or me sucking, or you owning, or steal damage, etc. If you care to defend the air runes in their current state, please make your point. Otherwise you are off topic and basically being a tool for calling me out on my suboptimal performance.

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Posted by: Oozo.7856

Oozo.7856

Why no comment on the lightning strike proc? Winning or losing a fight based off a reactive proc from being hit is the lamest form of RNG there is.

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Posted by: Seether.7285

Seether.7285

ITT: Payneful demonstrates limited reading comprehension abilities.

But Payneful, “don’t worry this isn’t personal. I’m just being logical.”

This thread was written about stealth culling issues and air runes. While you were in the video demonstrating Prince’s points you were not the topic, Prince was not even the topic, yet you decided to make the thread about yourself and him. Since you have decided to do this then I will talk a little about you and your thought process in this thread, and how assumptions make you look like an idiot.

Prince pointing out imbalanced things in the game is not a player desperately looking to “place the blame elsewhere” as you state, unless you believe that every single complaint on these forums have no merit and are merely people looking for easy mode?
After interjecting yourself as a subject in this thread you then tried to discredit another one of Prince’s claims. He posted a combat log with a large air rune hit, and because you saw 100 blades in the combat log you made the “logical” jump that he was using frenzy for a hit that big to occur. You jumped to this conclusion without having any evidence outside of what you see as a large hit, well I will reveal why you are an idiot. Thieves are able to take the 50% extra damage in downed state and air runes are effected by it.

You are pretty good at the game, you should try to reach the same level in reading comprehension and logic.

(edited by Seether.7285)

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Posted by: gamefreak.5673

gamefreak.5673

I loved that video Rhydian.5412.

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Posted by: Senyra.7346

Senyra.7346

Why are you all so worried about things that are supposedly balanced (or so Arena Net says)? Why not worry about the infinite number of hackers that auto stomp you, speed hack, auto res, pass through walls, go invisible, etc? That yes, is a real problem but apparently no one cares about half the community to be hacking.

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Posted by: gamefreak.5673

gamefreak.5673

We cant really do anything about that besides report them and be patient while they patch whatever it is allowing them to hack. Now providing pictures, video, and such to show how much rending can make a difference or showing how these to sigils can hit for to much is something we can do.

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Posted by: Wreck.2634

Wreck.2634

Win. I loved the video, you got a like from me.

Edit: Errr… the second video I mean, didn’t even watch the OP’s video haha.

(edited by Wreck.2634)

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Posted by: GankSinatra.2653

GankSinatra.2653

The reason I didn’t become revealed when I shot my arrows is because you dodged and blocked them all.

No its because you cant read and want to keep your THIEF e-fame intact or something.

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Posted by: Atlas.6901

Atlas.6901

So, I’ve reviewed the debate, and I have decided that I am voting for Prince on November 6. (Payne’s debating points were a bit too Romney-like for me, to be honest.)

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Posted by: Chris.7653

Chris.7653

Ya, it was a visual culling bug. It will be fixed next patch.

Cheers.

This seems like it should be an emergency hot fix to me, not to make people wait another 11 days.

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Posted by: Payneful.7934

Payneful.7934

Seether, you’re right about the 50% downed state damage increase on air rune. That shouldn’t be in the game.

I’m also amazed with the hypocrisy of some of you. You claim I have reading comprehension issues then bring up this quote: “The reason I didn’t become revealed when I shot my arrows is because you dodged and blocked them all.” Then you say I need to read Jonathan Sharp’s post.

The problem is, Jonathan Sharp said “visual culling bug”. The fact that a missed attack in stealth does not trigger the revealed effect is game mechanics, not a visual bug. The visual bug happens when the thief actually comes out of stealth and does not appear completely opaque right away.

Finally, my entire point has been to show Prince that the air rune is not the reason he lost that fight. If he had played well, he could have won that 1v1. One of the two reasons Prince has made this thread is because he believes air runes are unfair in their current state.

I don’t agree with this and Prince has not given solid evidence in his video as to why air run is over powered. All he has shown is him missing every one of his big damaging abilities then getting hit by a 5.1k lightning strike to finish him off.

5.1k is nothing for a glass cannon hitting another glass cannon. I’ve hit other glass cannons for almost 10k eviscerates on my warrior, 7k heartseekers at low health, and have seen the final hit of my sword auto attack hit for 5k under 50% health. These are the kinds of numbers a glass cannon should be putting out when fighting another glass cannon. On a tanky player I would be lucky to hit a 3k lightning strike.

Back when I used divinity runes, I never had trouble with players using air runes. However, I realized I wanted a fully offensive thief and so I picked up the air rune instead of divinity. Air runes are a great way to punish other players for prolonging a fight, because as everyone knows, thief is not the best sustained fighter. So when I’m fighting an ele who is just going to run around in circles healing themselves and applying buffs like protection and vigor on themselves to try to outlast me, I have a way of punishing them for that.

What I want to see is a video of two players dueling in which one player has air runes and other does not. I want to see both players play well, and see if the air rune wins the fight for the one who has them. Then I will agree they are overpowered. Until then, I will go by my experience, which tells me they are not overpowered (except for the 50% down state thing).

Payne [PTC] Thief
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Posted by: R E F L H E X.8413

R E F L H E X.8413

Eles are not hard to play and never was.

Steamrolled people since day one in beta event as ele being the second class I rolled after being in dissapointment with the mesmer, just mashing buttons, easy class, and never will be a hard one to play or master unless some game does it right and makes a lot of things more situational, like the mesmer was in gw1, which most games seems to want to dumb the game down into button mashing more than making it hard to play with situational skills which we have seen happening even in gw1 sadly enough.

And that’s not to mention back in those times I was using only one rune of each type of rune thinking they mixed and gave full specs each rune and you chose what you wanted, I even enter sometimes now without being properly specced (went in with 0 traits on accident before from resetting them before signing off)/missing half runes from switching armor and not replacing them and still don’t really have a problem playing the game no matter which class that happens to.

I must’ve missed the sign that said it was a fire sale.

(edited by R E F L H E X.8413)

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Posted by: Seether.7285

Seether.7285

Payne, thank you for demonstrating once again for the forum that you have reading comprehension issues. I was the only one who directly brought up reading comprehension issues, but then you somehow associated me with another person’s words by associating the reading comprehension argument with that person’s quote.

Prince never stated that the air rune was the “only” reason he lost and I said previously, this thread has NOTHING to do with the specific fight between you and Prince with the exception of the mechanics at play.

The problem with lightning strike compared to any of your other hard hitting abilities is there is no animation to watch for to prepare to dodge, if you attack the player with air runes the damage is going to come and it is going to happen pretty close to once every 10 seconds because of the high chance to proc. I think this is a problem given how much damage the lightning rune is able to put out depending on the build.

I’m not a person that complains about thief burst, or any burst in this game. I learn to deal with it, play better, etc. The problem with air runes is you can’t simply learn to outplay it, the damage is going to be coming in regardless. I wouldn’t even find air runes OP in their current state if it “infused” the wearers next attack or shot a projectile, something which one can look for and hope to avoid rather than unavoidable lightning bolt from the sky doing crazy damage.\

Pretty much the only thing you have been accurate on in this thread was Prince’s complaint about the stealth culling. This game for some reason has allowed people to remain stealthed while attacking and missing and so the beginning of the fight was working as intended for the most part. Take your minor win and cut your losses and vacate the thread and allow it to return to the original discussion topic.

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Posted by: Payneful.7934

Payneful.7934

Payne, thank you for demonstrating once again for the forum that you have reading comprehension issues. I was the only one who directly brought up reading comprehension issues, but then you somehow associated me with another person’s words by associating the reading comprehension argument with that person’s quote.

Prince never stated that the air rune was the “only” reason he lost and I said previously, this thread has NOTHING to do with the specific fight between you and Prince with the exception of the mechanics at play.

The problem with lightning strike compared to any of your other hard hitting abilities is there is no animation to watch for to prepare to dodge, if you attack the player with air runes the damage is going to come and it is going to happen pretty close to once every 10 seconds because of the high chance to proc. I think this is a problem given how much damage the lightning rune is able to put out depending on the build.

I’m not a person that complains about thief burst, or any burst in this game. I learn to deal with it, play better, etc. The problem with air runes is you can’t simply learn to outplay it, the damage is going to be coming in regardless. I wouldn’t even find air runes OP in their current state if it “infused” the wearers next attack or shot a projectile, something which one can look for and hope to avoid rather than unavoidable lightning bolt from the sky doing crazy damage.\

Pretty much the only thing you have been accurate on in this thread was Prince’s complaint about the stealth culling. This game for some reason has allowed people to remain stealthed while attacking and missing and so the beginning of the fight was working as intended for the most part. Take your minor win and cut your losses and vacate the thread and allow it to return to the original discussion topic.

Omg, the hypocrisy of this post. I don’t even think you read my last post, but that’s alright. The other posters claim in some way (not using your same words) that I did not comprehend Jonathan Sharp’s post. So I use your words (because I thought they were appropriate) and you automatically believe I’m rebutting what you said.

However, I did rebut what you said later in the post by explaining why I was talking about my fight with Prince and why he lost. Did you read it?

Prince is making a claim that air runes are OP, and he shows a video of him getting hit by a 5.1k lightning strike. He is basically saying 5.1k is too much for an ability that is passive. That is an opinion. I am coming in with my own opinion, saying that from my experience this number is, in fact, not too high.

In order to prove that the air rune was OP, he would have to come up with a video that shows two players playing just as well as one another (one with air runes) and show the one with air runes come out on top (by a significant margin). This is why I kept pointing out the flaws in Prince’s playing during that fight.

You also are saying the lightning strike from air runes can’t be dodged. Well what about runes that apply passive offensive stats? The only way you can dodge that extra damage from the stats is by dodging the abilities themselves and you won’t always be able to do that. In a team fight situation, I guarantee you, the cumulative extra AOE damage from increased offensive stats will do more damage than air runes in that fight.

Air runes are strong in a 1v1, because it only damages one person. In a team fight, it’s not so good.

P.S. I laughed so hard at this: " Take your minor win and cut your losses and vacate the thread and allow it to return to the original discussion topic."

Payne [PTC] Thief
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Posted by: Seether.7285

Seether.7285

Oh man, you just keep providing so much gold. Forget my last comment, keep posting and please post in as many threads as possible.

Yes, I read your comments about why Prince lost and they were completely unrelated to what he was posting about as has been stated in this thread several times. I really try to be polite to other players in the competitive community on the forums however when you choose to be this obtuse then I can no longer hold back.

Here is an example of you failing completely in the application of your logic while comparing two abilities:

“You also are saying the lightning strike from air runes can’t be dodged. Well what about runes that apply passive offensive stats? The only way you can dodge that extra damage from the stats is by dodging the abilities themselves and you won’t always be able to do that.”

Do you really not get the difference between damage that can not be avoided other than not attacking a target at all and damage is not avoided because of being in a hectic team fight? Can you please elaborate on how you think this is a logical argument? Regardless of whether the other options provide greater damage output in a team fight, that damage can at least be avoided.

Your idea that a duel between two equally skilled players would be the end-all determination of balance is a laughable use of logic as well. Duels are largely contrived situations and there are a huge number of variables in each duel even when using the same two players in each duel that narrowing down on the specific effect of the runes would take a series of many duels, not a video of one duel. That is why modern game developers do not make wide balance changes merely on anecdotal evidence, they look at data and perform analysis to see what changes should be made.

Looking forward to the next barrel of laughs…….

(edited by Seether.7285)

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Posted by: Prince.3682

Prince.3682

Payne, I don’t think anyone buys what you’re saying one bit but this thread has a lot of views now and we probably have an audience so everyone just /popcorn while this needless drama continues to unfold.

I’ll overlook your condescending attitude and move on to address the subject matters.

First off, human factors mean you cannot have an ‘equal’ 1v1 no matter what you do. And because of extended variables on top of the human factor you cannot come up with anything conclusive. Thus any results would be unfalsifiable and could not be taken seriously.

You also cannot just crunch numbers to say one does a certain dps over the other because spike damage obviously affects battle outcomes, especially in this game. And saying the air rune pans to a certain average dps % out over time is illogical because it takes it out of context. Anyone knows that fights are not a simple matter of damage in/damage out.

Furthermore, the fundamental issue is the RNG factor. I’m pretty sure the general consensus amongst pvp enthusiasts is that things such as the air runes are undesired. I would go as far as to say such things are anti-skill.

It’s also pretty obvious that on a personally level you have a vested interest in defending the air runes completely regardless to reality concerning fairness. After all, as long as you believe they are balanced you can pretend like the fights you win with it are all skill and even without them you’d have won anyway because its just a tiny factor in your overwhelming domination you pvp-man-god you.

However, if we did want to explore your claims we can imagine our duelists with two different runes. As per your example, one uses divinity, one uses air. Divinity gives 12% crit damage and 60 power. Air gives 10% crit damage and a 20% chance to lightning strike with a 10s cd. Damage wise you’re trading off 2% crit damage, 2% crit chance, and 60 power.

I’m going to estimate and say on many power/crit builds thats around a 4% improvement using divinity over air just looking at the numbers. And on most dps builds that’s probably adding 40 to 80 damage per attack but even on a giant 10,000 backstab you’re probably looking at around another 400 damage.

To put this into perspective, using divinity to reach the level of even the hit that landed on me in vid you’d have to land at least 12 consecutive 10,000 backstab level hits with the same frequency of an air rune proc, assuming that would be something just over 10 seconds in general. Its nowhere close to the same even on a number crunching level. But on top that it was a huge burst out of nowhere outside of your rotation without you having to do anything except get hit makes it even stronger still.

(edited by Prince.3682)

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Posted by: Payneful.7934

Payneful.7934

I’m not even going to respond to Seether because he has no clue what I’m saying and I would just have to reiterate what I have already said. Plus, he’s just out for blood.

Prince, I never meant to be condescending to you (I was actually going to say that about Seether lol). I have also not one time gloated about how I am better than you or how amazing I am at this game (lol). The whole purpose of explaining how you messed up in that fight was to show that this video does not show how air rune is OP. What the video does show clearly is the stealth bug.

As for divinity runes. You cannot compare the offensive power of divinity runes to air runes, because divinity runes are hybrid runes. Air runes are almost fully offensive.

Also, I never claimed that using air runes takes skill. All the runes (as far as I’m aware) have passive stats and passive abilities that require you to do nothing more than what you are already doing.

I also already assumed that there are things like human error and luck involved in everything in game and you would not be able make a video of an equal fight. But when you show a video of you not playing well at all and getting hit by a lightning strike then say air rune is OP, I can only ask “Why does this video show air runes are OP?” If you completely outplayed me and then got hit by a lightning strike and then lost the 1v1, I would think that there was something wrong with that, but that’s not what I saw.

I also still believe that lightning runes are only optimal for 1v1s or 2v2s which is why I run them in tpvp (because I’m a roamer). In bigger team fights, runes of the scholar would be much better for a thief, but I have to look at the big picture.

Payne [PTC] Thief
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Posted by: Prince.3682

Prince.3682

Ok, you believe 2-9k RNG hits are perfectly reasonable and balanced with other runes. Good for you. I’m done; move along now please.

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Posted by: Payneful.7934

Payneful.7934

I’ve never seen anything over 6.2k, but yes.

“Good for you. move along now please” Now who’s being condescending?

Payne [PTC] Thief
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Posted by: Schwahrheit.4203

Schwahrheit.4203

RNG is always bad in competitive play. Specially if it can be brokenly game changing.

Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?