Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

SO I did a study on this comparing:

Mystic salvage kit: “25%” chance of getting rare materials.
Basic salvage kit: 10% chance of getting rare materials.
Journeyman Salvage kit: 20% chance of getting rare materials.

and

I already have a sample of crude salvage kit: which has an unlisted (probably negligible .01 or something) from a source that compelled me to do this study.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/68588-from-rags-to-riches/

What I did was for each kit:
I tried using a sample of 250 rags for each kit and here are the results-

MYSTIC- |Gossamer- 28| |Silk-379|
BASIC-|Gossamer- 31| |Silk-386|
Journeyman-|Gossamer-34| |Silk-376|

So after you do the math of dividing the amount of gossamer with the number of items broken down or:
gossamer from kit/250= % chance of salvaging rare materials

Here are the percentages:
Mystic- 11.2%
Basic- 12.4%
Journeyman- 13.6%

AND CRUDE from the link above was a PERFECT 11% with a SAMPLE OF 2000 it comes out with 220 gossamer.

So from this we can assess that the base chance of getting a higher tier material from an item is 11% and the salvage kits modify this chance by the listed amount EXCEPT FOR THE MYSTIC SALVAGE KIT WHICH REQUIRES GEMS TO CREATE.

This really needs to be fixed.

PS
From here on forward I refuse to argue whether higher tier whites count or not as “rarer materials” without proper evidence. I have hard evidence they do. Unless you can do a sample similar or greater than mine, you have no right to argue otherwise. It doesn’t matter what you think is right. If you really want me to be technical on your level Pennry, all I can say is the tooltip says “rarer materials”. If you want to deny that gossamer is the same rarity as silk when salvaging an item when the chance of getting a gossamer, proven with a 2000 sample that it is in fact 11%, while silk is the rest of that percentage, then you have complete lack of logic. If you want to continue to argue with me, show me a sample of 1000 each of each kit on the same item and see if it comes to be the exact same.

(edited by Fatalyz.5270)

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Eochaidh.4106

Eochaidh.4106

Gossamer is classed as a ‘common’ crafting material as far as I know. I don’t think that the percentage provided on the description is related to this.

Also, it’s hard to tell if the variation is statistically significant.

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

Gossamer would be considered a rarer crafting material. If not, what WOULD count? Ectoplasm has been studied and the study says in the end its 1ecto- 1rare.
The salvage kits % simply means a higher tier of materials.

This study shows that the base rate of getting a higher tier material is 11%. What the kit does is increase that 11% by the listed amount.
ex.:
10% of 11% is 12.1%
20% of 11% is 13.2%
As you can see my tests shows this is very accurate.

but the advertised 25% is more like 0%
that is the point.

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Pennry.9215

Pennry.9215

I never thought of the T6 materials as being any “rarer” than the lower tiers. I think each level bracket has a tier of materials and you’ll just get lucky and get the next tier sometimes. IE mostly T3 materials, but sometimes a T4. Since T6 is the highest, they’ve just set the “to 80” bracket to have the T5 materials as more common with the “sometimes” being the T6 materials. That’s considering there is a rarity scale with the the color coding and labels as such. This “study” only shows the “sometimes” multiplier.

“Chance of rarer materials” has always meant (to me) as chance to get more blues than whites, more greens than blues, etc. I fully expect an 81+ item to give more T6 materials than the >80 item. Thinking back now, I actually think that the 81-84 event mobs seem to give more T6 mats just as drops.

Even at lower levels, I’ve never experienced a higher rate of the higher tier materials no mater what kit I used.

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

I never thought of the T6 materials as being any “rarer” than the lower tiers. I think each level bracket has a tier of materials and you’ll just get lucky and get the next tier sometimes. IE mostly T3 materials, but sometimes a T4. Since T6 is the highest, they’ve just set the “to 80” bracket to have the T5 materials as more common with the “sometimes” being the T6 materials. That’s considering there is a rarity scale with the the color coding and labels as such. This “study” only shows the “sometimes” multiplier.

“Chance of rarer materials” has always meant (to me) as chance to get more blues than whites, more greens than blues, etc. I fully expect an 81+ item to give more T6 materials than the >80 item. Thinking back now, I actually think that the 81-84 event mobs seem to give more T6 mats just as drops.

Even at lower levels, I’ve never experienced a higher rate of the higher tier materials no mater what kit I used.

wait wtf are you talking about? there are no greens or blues in this game that you can get from SALVAGING.
If HIGHER tier materials don’t count, then what does? What counts as “rarer materials”. NOTHING. so logically what would be a “rare material” then? nothing? Then why do they bother writing that “% chance of getting rarer materials” on there?

And since when do 81-84 mobs drop crafting materials? Are we playing the same game? wtf?

(edited by Fatalyz.5270)

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Posted by: Pennry.9215

Pennry.9215

wait wtf are you talking about? there are no greens or blues in this game that you can get from SALVAGING.

Um, I’ve gotten “fine materials” (which are blue) and Ectoplasm (which is Exotic). Don’t believe me about the “fine materials”? You can’t deny that Ectoplasm is a salvaged material, so go do a “study” on how much Ecto you get.

And to answer the direct question: I’m talking about “rarer” referring to the in-game rarity scale, not the tier scale. Higher tier does not equal rarer.

EDIT for your edit: Fine materials are crafting materials. I get more T6 fine materials off the 81-84 than the 80s or lower.

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

wait wtf are you talking about? there are no greens or blues in this game that you can get from SALVAGING.

Um, I’ve gotten “fine materials” (which are blue) and Ectoplasm (which is Exotic). Don’t believe me about the “fine materials”? You can’t deny that Ectoplasm is a salvaged material, so go do a “study” on how much Ecto you get.

And to answer the direct question: I’m talking about “rarer” referring to the in-game rarity scale, not the tier scale. Higher tier does not equal rarer.

What blues have you gotten from salvaging? i would really love to know
Ectos have already been studied.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/10d69g/salvaging_for_ectoplasm_an_analysis/
It has proven irrelevant to the kit.

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

wait wtf are you talking about? there are no greens or blues in this game that you can get from SALVAGING.

Um, I’ve gotten “fine materials” (which are blue) and Ectoplasm (which is Exotic). Don’t believe me about the “fine materials”? You can’t deny that Ectoplasm is a salvaged material, so go do a “study” on how much Ecto you get.

And to answer the direct question: I’m talking about “rarer” referring to the in-game rarity scale, not the tier scale. Higher tier does not equal rarer.

EDIT for your edit: Fine materials are crafting materials. I get more T6 fine materials off the 81-84 than the 80s or lower.

After this many salvages, I have not once gotten a blue from salvaging.
I guess i’m the most unlucky human being ever.

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Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Pennry.9215

Pennry.9215

I am truly sorry that you fail to see that there is an entire section of crafting materials called “Fine Materials”.

And to follow your link:
“To confirm this a much greater study needs to be done (N=500+). Because the values of these two are so similar it may be worth while to test small sample groups of the lesser masterwork, fine, and common salvaging kits to see if all kits have the same salvage rate of ~1.
While this is by no means conclusive, it does provide us with useful information. "

By your definition of “rarer”, in a 1-15 zone, T6 materials are rarer because you mostly get T1 materials. My definition of “rarer” means that in that same 1-15 zone, you get less T1 Fine Materials than you do T1 common materials. AND I will agree with you, at first glance the next higher tier of materials would seem to be considered rarer just because you get less of them, but that doesn’t fall in to the game’s established rarity scale.

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Khisanth.2948

Khisanth.2948

The mystic kit might require gems to make but with the gold → gems conversion the mystic kit is actually half the price(based on current prices) of the master kit and they have the same “stats”.

Also “dividing the amount of gossamer with the number of items” does not seem correct to me. If you salvaged 250 items it should be “number of times you got gossamer”/250 not “number of gossamer scraps”/250. Same with the other kits and items.

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

The mystic kit might require gems to make but with the gold -> gems conversion the mystic kit is actually half the price(based on current prices) of the master kit and they have the same “stats”.

Also “dividing the amount of gossamer with the number of items” does not seem correct to me. If you salvaged 250 items it should be “number of times you got gossamer”/250 not “number of gossamer scraps”/250. Same with the other kits and items.

rags only give one gossamer per “success”. so yes. My calculations are still correct.

and the fact that one of the stats on the mystic salvage kit is the equivalent of a crude kit, you think it shouldnt be fixed?

(edited by Fatalyz.5270)

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

I am truly sorry that you fail to see that there is an entire section of crafting materials called “Fine Materials”.

And to follow your link:
“To confirm this a much greater study needs to be done (N=500+). Because the values of these two are so similar it may be worth while to test small sample groups of the lesser masterwork, fine, and common salvaging kits to see if all kits have the same salvage rate of ~1.
While this is by no means conclusive, it does provide us with useful information. "

By your definition of “rarer”, in a 1-15 zone, T6 materials are rarer because you mostly get T1 materials. My definition of “rarer” means that in that same 1-15 zone, you get less T1 Fine Materials than you do T1 common materials. AND I will agree with you, at first glance the next higher tier of materials would seem to be considered rarer just because you get less of them, but that doesn’t fall in to the game’s established rarity scale.

And honestly you have lost all your credibility the second you said you can get blues from salvaging. you can never get blues from salvaging. EVER.

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Posted by: Pennry.9215

Pennry.9215

Since you have issues with opinions based on observations, lets look at your math and assume higher tier is considered rarer in salvaging. If you bothered to read, you’d see that I actually agreed with you on this point but was pointing out that the game shows otherwise.

Your first error is setting a base chance at 11% and trying to increase it by that. The chance is not increased by the percent stated. Next error is trying to find a percent chance based on a set amount of attempts and comparing it to a stated chance. The stated chance is on a per usage basis, not an over-all chance. IE Percentage is compounded on each use. 4 usages does not equal 1 greater in this case. As you should be able to see from looking at all your numbers and not just the Mystic results.

And that is the expected reply when asking about stated RNG percentages on consumable items, nevermind the debate on “rarer”.

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Posted by: Lucubration.8361

Lucubration.8361

If you stop to consider that yellow-text items are classified as “Rare”, it starts to make more sense why that percentage applies to the chance of getting things like Ectoplasm but would not apply to white-text (“Common”) items like Gossamer Scraps.

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Posted by: Tallenn.9218

Tallenn.9218

The linked study seems to show that there is no difference in the chance to get ectoplasms when using a Mystic vs a Black Lion Kit. I’m wondering: has it actually been verified that lower tier kits can’t salvage ectos, or even that they have a lower percentage?

I’ve always just heard that you should always use a Mystic (or master) kit on 70+ rares, but now I’m wondering if anyone’s ever actually verified that lower tiered kits (even crude!) aren’t just as good?

I personally have seen for myself that it DOES NOT MATTER what kit you use if your goal is higher tier regular mats (i.e. orichcalcum, gossamer, and ancient wood). I’ve tested it on white salvage items, 100 each with a crude kit, a basic kit, and a master kit, and got about the same number of orichalcum each time. Now I’m wondering if perhaps the same applies to ectos?

Is there ANY VERIFIABLE advantage to using anything but a crude kit?

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

I personally have seen for myself that it DOES NOT MATTER what kit you use if your goal is higher tier regular mats (i.e. orichcalcum, gossamer, and ancient wood). I’ve tested it on white salvage items, 100 each with a crude kit, a basic kit, and a master kit, and got about the same number of orichalcum each time. Now I’m wondering if perhaps the same applies to ectos?

Is there ANY VERIFIABLE advantage to using anything but a crude kit?

I essentially did the same test with a bigger sample. a 1 % fluctuation is very difficult to see with only a sample of 100. the difference would vary by 1 orichalcum.

And i was playing around with salvaging ectos with black lion kits. I noticed a huge difference although i did not record my results. one example of this was today when i salvaged 6 yellows with a mystic kit i got 1 ecto. after this, i started using black lion kits and out of 40 salvages i came out with 50 ectos. I rarely failed to salvage ectos and I was getting on multiple back to back 2 ectos per salvage.

I don’t feel like throwing anymore money at testing so this is just from speculation.

The reason higher tier salvage kit seem to have such a strong affect on ectos i believe because their initial salvage rate is very high, so the modifier produces very noticeable results. for example, IF the chance of getting an ecto is 60% base, then with a black lion kit the chance of getting an ecto now becomes 90%. that’s huge.

On the case of t6 materials, the base rate is VERY LIKELY 11% as seen from the sample of 2000. lo and behold we can see the power of probability with such a large sample which came out with 220 gossamer, which is a perfect 11%.

From my personal results, mystic kit giving 11% also is a very bad sign. And to further prove that my findings ARE in fact correct that higher tier materials are affected by this, each time i increased the percentage chance to get rarer materials by 10%, a little over a 1% increase was seen as it should be.

PS
From here on forward I refuse to argue whether higher tier whites count or not as “rarer materials” without proper evidence. I have hard evidence they do. Unless you can do a sample similar or greater than mine, you have no right to argue otherwise. It doesn’t matter what you think is right. If you really want me to be technical on your level Pennry, all I can say is the tooltip says “rarer materials”. If you want to deny that gossamer is the same rarity as silk when salvaging an item when the chance of getting a gossamer, proven with a 2000 sample that it is in fact 11%, while silk is the rest of that percentage, then you have complete lack of logic. If you want to continue to argue with me, show me a sample of 1000 each of each kit on the same item. and see if it comes to be the exact same.

(edited by Fatalyz.5270)

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

theres only 1 rare material

its called glob of ectoplasm

Hey! i’m glad you are literate and read what i wrote. Oh wait you didn’t.
To add on to that literacy issue you are having, it says “rarer materials”.

thanks for the extremely productive comment.

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

theres only 1 rare material

its called glob of ectoplasm

Hey! i’m glad you are literate and read what i wrote. Oh wait you didn’t.
To add on to that literacy issue you are having, it says “rarer materials”.

thanks for the extremely productive comment.

i have read everything

gossamer, orichalcum and ancient wood isnt a rarer material

using low or best salvage kit doesnt increase your chances to get them

it only affect ectos or other rare materials (if they exist)

Where is your proof? if you don’t have numbers to back it up then you are wrong. sorry

“From here on forward I refuse to argue whether higher tier whites count or not as “rarer materials” without proper evidence. I have hard evidence they do. Unless you can do a sample similar or greater than mine, you have no right to argue otherwise. It doesn’t matter what you think is right. If you really want me to be technical, all I can say is the tooltip says “rarer materials”. If you want to deny that gossamer is the same rarity as silk when salvaging an item when the chance of getting a gossamer, proven with a 2000 sample that it is in fact 11%, while silk is the rest of that percentage, then you have complete lack of logic. If you want to continue to argue with me, show me a sample of 1000 each of each kit on the same item and see if it comes to be the exact same."

(edited by Fatalyz.5270)

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

Waiting for GM response on this issue

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Sarie.1630

Sarie.1630

Fatalyz, you’re getting very defensive over this issue. You don’t need numerical proof of anything here. Gossamer is under the “Common Crafting Materials” section of the collections tab. The fact that it is, in the general sense of the word, “rarer” than silk does not mean that it is a “rare crafting material”.

My interpretation is this: how rare an item is, including crafting materials, depends on the colour assigned to the name of the item. The fact that the salvage kit states “…% chance of rarer materials” simply encompasses Rare and Exotic items. The fact that we can (as far as I know) currently only salvage Exotic items (those being Ectos) doesn’t come into it.

Gossamer’s name is white. White is common. Gossamer is therefore common – given the Game’s definitions.

On my server Jute is more expensive on the broker than Silk. Does that make Jute rarer than Silk, if it is in shorter supply? No. Both are white, thus both are common.

I understand you will not like this and you “will not argue about tier without indesputable hard evidence”. I am sure you will shrug this off as others in this thread have made this exact point. I would nevertheless urge you to go to the Trading Post, Search for “Gossamer Scrap”, set the rarity filter to “Rare” and see what results you get.

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Posted by: Khift.4706

Khift.4706

The problem, Sarie, is that it is physically impossible to salvage anything other than white materials (excluding the aberrant Glob of Ectoplasm). I have used dozens of Basic Salvage Kits and have never received any material except a white material. Ever. And this experience is shared by every single person I’ve ever broached the topic to. Pennry in this thread is the only person I have ever seen claim to have received a fine/blue materials from salvaging items and I honestly think he simply did not pay attention to his salvages and is mistaken. There are entire studies, such as the one OP did, where people studied what you get when you salvage items — and they never, ever get fine/blue items. Ever.

No matter how you look at this, though, conceptually or numerically, there is just no way this is the intended behavior. As it is the only reason to ever use anything other than crude kits is to salvage ectoplasm. That simply cannot be how they intended the system to function. Maybe these kits are supposed to salvage fine/blue materials. But the cold, hard fact is that they currently cannot under any known circumstances.

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Posted by: Sarie.1630

Sarie.1630

Khift I think you misunderstood my entire post. I’m not disputing that the only non-common material you can currently salvage are Globs of Ectoplasm.

Do you not think they’re just keeping their options open though, with the salvage kit description? So, at the moment, the only “Rarer than Common” material you can salvage are Ectos. That’s not to say there wont be in future.

I wont deny it’s marginally misleading, the way it’s been written, but it seems clear to me that Gossamer is not rarer than common, and is not subject to the “higher chance to be salvaged” clause.

The point here though is whether Gossamer is considered a rare salvage item. Or well, I should say, rarer than common such that it’s salvage rate is affected by the clause on the kit…

…it is not. That is all.

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Posted by: Cisza.9540

Cisza.9540

Khift I think you misunderstood my entire post. I’m not disputing that the only non-common material you can currently salvage are Globs of Ectoplasm.

Do you not think they’re just keeping their options open though, with the salvage kit description? So, at the moment, the only “Rarer than Common” material you can salvage are Ectos. That’s not to say there wont be in future.

I wont deny it’s marginally misleading, the way it’s been written, but it seems clear to me that Gossamer is not rarer than common, and is not subject to the “higher chance to be salvaged” clause.

The point here though is whether Gossamer is considered a rare salvage item. Or well, I should say, rarer than common such that it’s salvage rate is affected by the clause on the kit…

…it is not. That is all.

So either Salvage Kits are not working as intented if Gossamer Scrap is rarer material OR Salvage Kits are not working as intended if “blue” items are considered rarer material.
So the true point is, which OP already stated (thou with wrong percentages, but it doesn’t mater in conclusion) – Salvage Kits are broken.
Either way I’d love to see dev response on this.

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

first of all, no where in the description does it say “rare” material. therefore assuming “rare grade items” can come from salvaging is completely irrelevant. In the end 11% is less than 89% therefore the item with an 11% chance of being salvaged is rarer because it has a lower percentage of being salvaged. Pretty basic comparison skills here. I dont understand why people’s minds are so narrow and completely bound to this rarity system. The assumption that colors define how rare an item is very simple minded. In the end, the rarer item is the item with a lower percentage or is harder to obtain is rarer. Why can’t people understand that? Arenanet can go off and change the colors of their items however they wish. They actually changed the color of a mystic forge conduit from white to orange. in the end its attainability didn’t change just because of the color.

And how are my percentages wrong? that is exactly how it works. Diablo had a similar system with magic find. And the percentage are proof that it is how it work. From my data, the kits are actually working as intended except for the mystic kit which is showing a 0% increase unlike its listed 25%.

(edited by Fatalyz.5270)

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Posted by: Gahro.4095

Gahro.4095

What the tooltip means by “rarer” or “rare” materials is "one tier higher than normal for this a given cloth/leather/heavy piece. For Lv70+ items this means a chance of Gossamer/Orichalcum/T6Leather (forgot the name).

Ectos are something completely different. They are a “trophy” and they actually have always the same chance to be salvaged out of 70+ (rares/exotics only) REGARDLESS which salvage kit you use (even Crude will do) (might be 68+, don’t know exactly).

But OP is right in that the Mystic Salvage Kit does not give the stated 25% increased chance. If the tooltip is wrong or the salvage kits are bugged is a question a dev has to answer.

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

What the tooltip means by “rarer” or “rare” materials is "one tier higher than normal for this a given cloth/leather/heavy piece. For Lv70+ items this means a chance of Gossamer/Orichalcum/T6Leather (forgot the name).

Ectos are something completely different. They are a “trophy” and they actually have always the same chance to be salvaged out of 70+ (rares/exotics only) REGARDLESS which salvage kit you use (even Crude will do) (might be 68+, don’t know exactly).

But OP is right in that the Mystic Salvage Kit does not give the stated 25% increased chance. If the tooltip is wrong or the salvage kits are bugged is a question a dev has to answer.

Recently I tried using lower tier kits for ectos. that didnt go too well. I had about 1 ecto out of 6 yellows and decided to stop wasting my money. I started using black lion kits and saw a significant increase of ectos. (about 50 ectos to 40 yellows)

Ectos are harder to test because they are a much bigger gamble due to the chance of getting 1-5 ectos per salvage therefore much harder to test due to a much larger sample requirement.

(edited by Fatalyz.5270)

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Posted by: Pennry.9215

Pennry.9215

Again you all ignore that “chance on use” isn’t “chance over all”. Take a hundred-sided die, 75 sides have Silk on them and the other 25 have Gossamer on them. That die has a 25% chance to land on Gossamer per roll, not overall.

You could take a millions scraps and break them all down and still not be satisfied with your results. The system doesn’t go “they’ve done 95 breakdowns and only have received 20 Gossamer, better give them Gossamer for the next 5 breaks to make up the percentage”. It goes “breakdown… roll die, if 1-75 then Silk, else Gossamer”.

Welcome to odds and the true nature of RNG. Go to a casino, they may tell you it’s a 1:100000 (random numbers) chance to win the slot jackpot. That doesn’t mean you can take 100000 people and be guaranteed a winner.

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

Again you all ignore that “chance on use” isn’t “chance over all”. Take a hundred-sided die, 75 sides have Silk on them and the other 25 have Gossamer on them. That die has a 25% chance to land on Gossamer per roll, not overall.

You could take a millions scraps and break them all down and still not be satisfied with your results. The system doesn’t go “they’ve done 95 breakdowns and only have received 20 Gossamer, better give them Gossamer for the next 5 breaks to make up the percentage”. It goes “breakdown… roll die, if 1-75 then Silk, else Gossamer”.

Welcome to odds and the true nature of RNG. Go to a casino, they may tell you it’s a 1:100000 (random numbers) chance to win the slot jackpot. That doesn’t mean you can take 100000 people and be guaranteed a winner.

Wow. You don’t get it do you. You understand what card counting is and all that stuff works? It’s all calculated probability. Probability can all be calculated. I learned this in middle school buddy. You must not have been educated very well.

It sounds like you think RNG is some mythical beast that will spit out a random result.
SO apparently i magically had a 1% increase per 10% and it was all a silly coincidence. You caught me. you win.

(edited by Fatalyz.5270)

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

OH I have an idea. Then how do you calculate the overall chance of something? Is it not a compilation of chance on use?

by the way, breaking 1 million scraps is overkill. as you can see, a sample size of 2000 was already enough to create 0% margin of error.

“chance on use” isn’t “chance over all”.
False. Say that to someone who has a middle school diploma and they will laugh at you.

Here let me give you something simple to digest. speak up if you can’t understand what is going on here.
http://www.basic-mathematics.com/coin-toss-probability.html

oh god what is this witchcraft! how can it be getting so close to 50%!.

(edited by Fatalyz.5270)

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Sarie.1630

Sarie.1630

So either Salvage Kits are not working as intented if Gossamer Scrap is rarer material OR Salvage Kits are not working as intended if “blue” items are considered rarer material.

RarER just means MORE RARE than Common. As Blue (Fine) items are more rare than White (Common) materials, then yes, if Blue items were salvageable (note I said “If”) then they should logically be subject to the “increased chance” clause.

So yes. Working as intended according to all th evidence I’ve seen to date.

The only thing that doesn’t seem to be working as intended are players’ abilities to differentiate something ArenaNet has designated Rare by colouring the description text yellow, and something that the Player has decided is Rare because it doesn’t drop as much as something else.

So the true point is, which OP already stated (thou with wrong percentages, but it doesn’t mater in conclusion) – Salvage Kits are broken.
Either way I’d love to see dev response on this.

So would I, if only to point out that GOSSAMER IS A COMMON MATERIAL.


Fatalyz: I see your interpretation of “rarer items” being “items required for higher level crafting”, but by your logic, you should be able to salvage Gossamer from loot dropped in Queensdale.

So. Can you? Have you? That’s going to be the only thing that might sway me on this.

The standard salvageable cloth from L70+ gear is Silk. Gossamer, as you have shown is received in far lower quantities. If ArenaNet raised the level cap to L100, for instance, with new zones dropping new loot and a new tier of crafting materials, Gossamer would logically be the most common salvaged cloth from the “new set” of loot drops, with a brand new material taking the place of Gossamer.

Gossamer is simply the Tailor’s version of Orichalcum. ArenaNet NEED a way to keep Gossamer a little bit rarer (in the general sense of the term) than Silk.

(edited by Sarie.1630)

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

So either Salvage Kits are not working as intented if Gossamer Scrap is rarer material OR Salvage Kits are not working as intended if “blue” items are considered rarer material.

RarER just means MORE RARE than Common. As Blue (Fine) items are more rare than White (Common) materials, then yes, if Blue items were salvageable (note I said “If”) then they should logically be subject to the “increased chance” clause.

So yes. Working as intended according to all th evidence I’ve seen to date.

The only thing that doesn’t seem to be working as intended are players’ abilities to differentiate something ArenaNet has designated Rare by colouring the description text yellow, and something that the Player has decided is Rare because it doesn’t drop as much as something else.

So the true point is, which OP already stated (thou with wrong percentages, but it doesn’t mater in conclusion) – Salvage Kits are broken.
Either way I’d love to see dev response on this.

So would I, if only to point out that GOSSAMER IS A COMMON MATERIAL.

So this metaphorically flawed representation of rarity should dictate how everything in the game works?

Hypothetically if there were no rarity system in place, how would you determine the rarity of an item?

If you mean to tell me that ectoplasm are in fact rarer than gossamer, then you haven’t played the game near enough to be talking.

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Posted by: Sarie.1630

Sarie.1630

So this metaphorically flawed representation of rarity should dictate how everything in the game works?

Hypothetically if there were no rarity system in place, how would you determine the rarity of an item?

If you mean to tell me that ectoplasm are in fact rarer than gossamer, then you haven’t played the game near enough to be talking.

I amended my post above which I believe answers most of this.

I think you just don’t understand.

For your convenience:

Fatalyz: I see your interpretation of “rarer items” being “items required for higher level crafting”, but by your logic, you should be able to salvage Gossamer from loot dropped in Queensdale.

So. Can you? Have you? That’s going to be the only thing that might sway me on this.

The standard salvageable cloth from L70+ gear is Silk. Gossamer, as you have shown is received in far lower quantities. If ArenaNet raised the level cap to L100, for instance, with new zones dropping new loot and a new tier of crafting materials, Gossamer would logically be the most common salvaged cloth from the “new set” of loot drops, with a brand new material taking the place of Gossamer.

Gossamer is simply the Tailor’s version of Orichalcum. ArenaNet NEED a way to keep Gossamer a little bit rarer (in the general sense of the term) than Silk.

(edited by Sarie.1630)

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

So either Salvage Kits are not working as intented if Gossamer Scrap is rarer material OR Salvage Kits are not working as intended if “blue” items are considered rarer material.

RarER just means MORE RARE than Common. As Blue (Fine) items are more rare than White (Common) materials, then yes, if Blue items were salvageable (note I said “If”) then they should logically be subject to the “increased chance” clause.

So yes. Working as intended according to all th evidence I’ve seen to date.

The only thing that doesn’t seem to be working as intended are players’ abilities to differentiate something ArenaNet has designated Rare by colouring the description text yellow, and something that the Player has decided is Rare because it doesn’t drop as much as something else.

So the true point is, which OP already stated (thou with wrong percentages, but it doesn’t mater in conclusion) – Salvage Kits are broken.
Either way I’d love to see dev response on this.

So would I, if only to point out that GOSSAMER IS A COMMON MATERIAL.

Why are you so bound to this metaphorical representation of rarity?

Lol this is actually giving me a better ideas presented in Nietzsche’s ideas on truth and lies in a nonmoral sense. Your have been blinded by this metaphorical representation of a rarity system that you completely refuse to understand how it actually works. You constantly run on the assumption that color is the only way to determine rarity.

You want to know how i determine rarity? Something with the lower probability of getting is rarer. Are you telling me I’m wrong in thinking that? Obviously my way is more logical and accurate.

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Posted by: Sarie.1630

Sarie.1630

You want to know how i determine rarity? Something with the lower probability of getting is rarer. Are you telling me I’m wrong in thinking that? Obviously my way is more logical and accurate.

Your “way” is not wrong. It’s just different.

But who is it different to?

Answer: ArenaNet.

Who developped the game?

Answer: ArenaNet.

Until Gossamer is painted yellow with ArenaNet’s little rare-a-malogical rare-ogrifier it will remain, in my eyes, as a common material, meaning Salvage Kits are working as intended.

You should petition ArenaNet to change it so you can be right.

That is all.

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz: I see your interpretation of “rarer items” being “items required for higher level crafting”, but by your logic, you should be able to salvage Gossamer from loot dropped in Queensdale.

So. Can you? Have you? That’s going to be the only thing that might sway me on this.

how does my logic lead to loot in queensdale lot giving gossamer? It’s a different tier therefore a different loot table.

The standard salvageable cloth from L70+ gear is Silk. Gossamer, as you have shown is received in far lower quantities. If ArenaNet raised the level cap to L100, for instance, with new zones dropping new loot and a new tier of crafting materials, Gossamer would logically be the most common salvaged cloth from the “new set” of loot drops, with a brand new material taking the place of Gossamer.

Yes which means that next tier of cloth would become the rarer item. Each piece of loot has two items on their base loot table. the standard tier and the higher tier. the higher tier is rarer than the lower tier.
As someone familiar with computer programming, let me tell you exactly what
happens when salvaging an item. I can literally code this if you want.

The game will roll a dice a maximum of three times.
Roll1: Roll to see if you get a a standard tier material(standard) or a higher tier material(rarer)

If item has an attached upgrade roll again>
Roll2: roll to see if you successfully retrieve your upgrade from the item. percentage dictated on kit.

if item is rare or exotic roll again>
Roll3: roll to see if you receive ectoplasm.

End salvage

Are you getting a better idea of how this works? give me an instance when this system does not hold true.

(edited by Fatalyz.5270)

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Posted by: saurus.8290

saurus.8290

If you mean to tell me that ectoplasm are in fact rarer than gossamer, then you haven’t played the game near enough to be talking.

it is, you can get it only from rare and exotics lvl 70+ (obtaining them is easy tho)
used kit to obtain ectos matters

getting way more ectos using black lion than crude kits

rags have fixed chance to get materials like the coin have 50% for head and tail (you can fix the coin to always give you head as you can fix the dice to always give you 6)

anet decided that gossamer should be harder to get becouse its used for highest gear crafting

in the future they can add more tiers and new salvage items that give you gossamer + xxxx at the same chance as rags now

but still gossamer is common crafting material and you cant change that

i dont need to show you numbers i salvaged over 10k items

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

Let me tell you something. If the tooltip does in fact say “rare material” then you would be 100% right. but it doesn’t and says rarer materials. Essentially whatever has the lower probability of obtaining is rarer. Picking whether silk or gossamer is rarer is easy isn’t it? which one is it?

Your argument is simply: “It’s this color so I’m right and being completely open to other possibilities is just wrong.” What a weak argument.
Then can you explain my numbers that i got? How was there a 10% increase in gossamer during a 10% increase in chance of salvaging rarer materials? If you can’t explain it then you are wrong. If you continue to deny it you are just blind and narrow minded.

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Posted by: Sarie.1630

Sarie.1630

Doesn’t need to say “Rare Material”. The name “Glob of Ectoplasm” is Orange. Orange means “Exotic”.

If Orange text has another meaning please share with us.

Sorry if it’s too intuitive.

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

Doesn’t need to say “Rare Material”. The name “Glob of Ectoplasm” is Orange. Orange means “Exotic”.

If Orange text has another meaning please share with us.

Sorry if it’s too intuitive.

I’m not arguing that orange is not rare. I’m arguing that just because an item is white, doesn’t mean it can’t be rarer than another white. See how narrow minded you are? It’s sickening that you would leave a response like that.

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Posted by: saurus.8290

saurus.8290

Number of flip: 1000 Number of heads 465 Number of tails 535

The probability so far to get heads is 0.465 – 46,5%
The probability so far to get tails is 0.535 – 53,5%

does this make head rarer?

already told you theres a luck factor, you just could be lucky with crude and basic kits

and unlucky with mystic kit

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

Number of flip: 1000 Number of heads 465 Number of tails 535

The probability so far to get heads is 0.465 – 46,5%
The probability so far to get tails is 0.535 – 53,5%

does this make head rarer?

already told you theres a luck factor, you just could be lucky with crude and basic kits

and unlucky with mystic kit

Hey buddy, making numbers up doesn’t mean you are right.
I would chalk it up to luck if i didn’t have 4 samples here.

You want to know how i know you made numbers up? in a sample of 1000 the percentage would be much closer to 50%. also the fact that your example is in a factor of 5 is pretty hilarious. also i was clicking that coin flipping program on that site and it balanced to 50% at about 180 flips and when i kept clicking it for anouther 300 times it fluctuated by 1% every time. good try.

(edited by Fatalyz.5270)

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Posted by: Elessar.7902

Elessar.7902

He’s actually right. And you’re not. Yes, I’m talking to you Fatalyz.

You insist so much on proving something just because you done some maths.

Give us all a break here and stop provoking everyone.

Hate is a place where a man who can’t stand sadness goes.

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

where is your proof i’m wrong? what if i am in fact right and they needed to fix a miscoding in the source code?

Mystic salavage kit % of getting "rarer materials" is broken!

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

why is this topic blank?

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Posted by: Pennry.9215

Pennry.9215

First 50/50 is completely different than 1/4, etc. If you left middle school and actually got in to advanced math you’d know this. Next, sample size is relevant here. A million shots is much more accurate than a mere 250. The game is built around every player ever.

I’m not saying you’re wrong. You are right, but your approach is wrong. You’re saying the kits are broken because (all the trials). You should be saying the crafting material tiers are broken because (all the same trials). I honestly think the game is set that each item falls in to the color rarity tiers and not the sub tiers that crafting mats have per level bracket. The game appears to think Silk is rarity 1A, Gossamer is rarity 1B, and anything blue is rarity 2: roll die get 1 or 2 with a 25% chance of 2, get one, roll second die for what type of 1 (A or. When it should be different for cloth scraps. It should be only rolling that second die, with a 25% chance of B. (Seeing the sub rarity scale is obvious when looking at the drop rates of Fine Materials: ie you get more Bones than you get Bloods, but they’re all in the same colored tier.)

And before you get all pissy about salvaging and drops being different, I’m saying they are not different but should be.

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Posted by: Pennry.9215

Pennry.9215

Since the thread is loading funny and only showing the reply box. I’ll just add another reply and hope it shows up right.

Just thought of something while doing my (now) daily orichalcum ore gathering: Maybe Silk/Gossamer is the worst example. With all the recent “nerfs” to T6 items and gear, it could be that Gossamer is setup differently than the other tiers and a trial with a T4 item would be better.

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

You would be right if you could salvage blues. WHICH YOU CANT.
and on a side note, ectoplasm is on a different loot table than the whites. that’s why you always get a white when you salvage . yes given that if there were more than 2 things to roll on, then i would be wrong. but there aren’t. Please refer above to how salvaging works step by step.

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Posted by: Fatalyz.5270

Fatalyz.5270

Or let me reword that, you can’t get blues from salvaging. Bones and bloods are strictly drops or come from the pouches.

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Posted by: Pennry.9215

Pennry.9215

Thread is busted the moment I log in so I can’t quote.

Just because you haven’t received a blue from salvaging doesn’t mean that the system doesn’t think you can. When you get a drop, it rolls for quality, quantity, and type. It’s the same for salvaging. What I’m pointing out is that maybe the “rarer” quality (ie blue or better) loot table is empty for salvaging. So you salvage, it hits “rare” but has nothing to give you, so it gives you the next stage down (“common”). It’s not the kits that are broken. It’s the system of salvaging. You start off by stating that Mystic Kits are broken, then show evidence that all kits are broken.

And I’m not saying you’re wrong. In fact, several times I’ve said you were right.

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Posted by: Hsinimod.5784

Hsinimod.5784

I can’t see the posts suddenly…. this thread only has a title, and then a reply box. And nothing more…. EDIT: The tabs for page 1 and page 2 disappeared, until after posting.

But before it disappeared, yes, I’ve noticed that Salvage Kits are broken. 50% chance from the Gem Store kits (I have gotten from the Dailies) doesn’t do anything at 50%. It’s a waste of gold/gems/money to chance on something clearly not working as the description states.