Getting Fed Up.

Getting Fed Up.

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Posted by: Raehvyn.4530

Raehvyn.4530

So, the whole thieves being able to single handedly prevent capping irked me. Honestly, I thought that as annoying as it was that it was equally annoying that everyone refused to stack on and not run off to permit the thief to perma-invis while slaughtering them.

But this portaling into a keep thing? I don’t even want to play anymore. I loved WvWvW. I just got killed in Jerrifer’s keep or whatever it is called. While the door was 100%. Because they managed to (and I hesitate to say the word) exploitingly teleport into the keep. We lost Jerrifers in seconds with the sheer amount of people that teleported in. There could be no defense, no communicating their threat because of how instantaneously they arrive.

I don’t know whether it was just shoddy game design or design oversight that allowed this or just outrageous player cleverness but it is utterly destroying my desire to play WvWvW. I mean we took Jerrifers the normal way and it took time and patience only to lose it nearly immediately? That can’t possibly be how it was intended.

It just ruins it for me.

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Posted by: Brunners.7251

Brunners.7251

If you’d only just taken the place you’ll probably find you hadn’t cleaned out all the mesmers from inside.

Some of them are slippery kittens who can hide for ages without being caught, if you don’t look hard enough.

And if you don’t look hard enough you’ll quickly find an enemy zerg inside your tower/keep

Founder of small guild Brothers of Aesir [EU Desolation]
WvW and PvE orientated!
brothersofaesir.eu

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Posted by: Tine Sionnach.8629

Tine Sionnach.8629

some towers and keeps you can jump up the outer walls to get in drop portal and wam everyone is in, i watched a mesmer do it a couple weeks ago reported them and submitted ss and a vid.

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Posted by: Raehvyn.4530

Raehvyn.4530

It had been a while since we had taken the keep. A good 20 minutes? I don’t know, I mostly spent that time dying trying to get to the keep in the first place. Just seems implausible that they would be hidden for that long with so many people inside the keep. They eventually left of course and the moment they did the keep just got completely zerged.

I hate that it works like that even if a mesmer is in there. I have a hard time really accepting that a single class could completely bypass the defense of a keep taking an entire zerg along with it. Sort of ruins the element of back and forth struggling for a keep.

Especially with our commanders being so thorough about hidden mesmers just seems implausible but then it happened so somewhere along the way something went wrong.

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Posted by: Brunners.7251

Brunners.7251

It had been a while since we had taken the keep. A good 20 minutes? I don’t know, I mostly spent that time dying trying to get to the keep in the first place. Just seems implausible that they would be hidden for that long with so many people inside the keep. They eventually left of course and the moment they did the keep just got completely zerged.

I hate that it works like that even if a mesmer is in there. I have a hard time really accepting that a single class could completely bypass the defense of a keep taking an entire zerg along with it. Sort of ruins the element of back and forth struggling for a keep.

Especially with our commanders being so thorough about hidden mesmers just seems implausible but then it happened so somewhere along the way something went wrong.

I have personally seen a mesmer successfully hide in a keep for an hour and a half waiting for the opportune time to portal a zerg in.

Don’t under estimate how willing to hide those guys are.

Founder of small guild Brothers of Aesir [EU Desolation]
WvW and PvE orientated!
brothersofaesir.eu

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Posted by: Jaghen.8314

Jaghen.8314

Well if the mesmer wasn’t found inside then it’s pretty legit that he can allow a lot of ennemies to join him inside… Ever heard of the Trojan Horse ?

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Posted by: Tine Sionnach.8629

Tine Sionnach.8629

I have personally seen a mesmer successfully hide in a keep for an hour and a half waiting for the opportune time to portal a zerg in.

Don’t under estimate how willing to hide those guys are.

I have hidden as a thief in a tower for 2 hours and took out a gate from the inside.

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Posted by: Jonathan.1580

Jonathan.1580

I do not agree with the OP, I play a thief/warr and I LOVE the extra dimension to paranoia mesmers add in game play. I don’t want to play colonial warfare type tactics all the time. You simply must perform solid mesmer sweeps. This does not include hackers but I suspect it is many many more times due to them being sneaky =)

To the OP..I know your frustrated right now but to me? this type of frustration just makes me want to play harder vs not play.. perhaps think of it that way?

Creeper

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Posted by: Raehvyn.4530

Raehvyn.4530

I absolutely don’t think thieves should be able to prevent a cap and remain perma-invis. I recongize this to be the fault of the people unwilling to stack and AoE so the thief can’t hit. I don’t think that adds dimension at all.

As for the dimension brought by mesmer infiltrators, how do they do it? There isn’t a mechanic that allows for them to be permanently hidden right? Keeps like SH and Dreadfall I could understand and maybe appreciate the threat of mesmers. Small keeps like Jerrifers I can’t imagine offer too many hiding spots within the confines of the keep. Especially ones that negate tab targeting.

The frustration is born from all the effort dumped into something only to have it instantaneously undone. Completely bypassing an entire part of WvW seems crazy. I’d settle for infiltration groups, allowing the mesmer to port in people who’re in their group, allowing for tactical infiltration but even then just everyone would group around the mesmer so seems almost hopeless.

Early this morning we simply didn’t have the numbers to take keeps. TDA prevented us from capping camps, apparently Mesmer ninjas gobbled up our keeps, and no resistance could really be formed because of these tactics.

I mean I’m sure it is fun to pour into an keep with no resistance but I really don’t want this to turn into Warhammer Online where it becomes more profitable to not fight and just dump mesmers everywhere while single thieves lock down supply camps.

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Posted by: Bambam.3961

Bambam.3961

I agree, the other day there was about 50 of us going around zerging and we came across this supply camp that was easy enough to get.. Until one of their Thief’s showed up, took us (50 of us!) about 5-10 minutes to even find the thief and actually kill it. That is kind of ridiculous that a thief can hold 50 people at bay from capturing a point.

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Posted by: Raehvyn.4530

Raehvyn.4530

Typically that is because people refuse to stack up. They wander around aimlessly. I don’t like the mechanic aspect but I find that the offense isn’t so much with the thieves as much as an unwillingness and with the Koreans on SBI a language barrier preventing people from knowing to or doing the stacking up. Not really sure what the solution for that would be though.

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Posted by: Sky.9347

Sky.9347

Typically that is because people refuse to stack up. They wander around aimlessly. I don’t like the mechanic aspect but I find that the offense isn’t so much with the thieves as much as an unwillingness and with the Koreans on SBI a language barrier preventing people from knowing to or doing the stacking up. Not really sure what the solution for that would be though.

Learn Korean?

Seriously though, the rendering bug needs to be fixed ASAP.
Mesmers and their Portals are fine, though. I like what they bring to WvW, even when fighting against them.

Sky – [tSA] – Stormbluff Isle
November 15, 2012 – The day a dream died.

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Posted by: Stiv.1820

Stiv.1820

I did this to some SoR zerg last night. They eventually all stacked up and I made a mistake and I was dead. I don’t see what the big deal is, I wasted ~5mintues of a zerg’s time and they were still able to cap it.

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Posted by: Jonathan.1580

Jonathan.1580

So now we are on to thieves too =) Well I want the rendering issue corrected too, but I just hope ANET does not listen to every whine on here about people and teams not doing things the " normal " way.

This goes for any type of out of the box game play..thieves preventing caps..and mesmers portaling in grps etc. These things are excting as they are frustrating. Take the blinders off. I suggest you all really think on what your asking for. You might just get it.

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Posted by: Xandax.1753

Xandax.1753

As long as the person gets inside legit – aka not wall exploiting – I see no issue.

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Posted by: etsmith.9025

etsmith.9025

You wouldbe surprised at the places mesmers can hide in. You should always do a full sweep after taking a tower or keep. I myself have waited for groups to build golums to port and bypass keep defenses. Too many times i have watched zergs cap something then run right past me to go hit the another tower just to return and find it recapped.

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Posted by: Kardiamond.6952

Kardiamond.6952

I did this to some SoR zerg last night. They eventually all stacked up and I made a mistake and I was dead. I don’t see what the big deal is, I wasted ~5mintues of a zerg’s time and they were still able to cap it.

So one single person, holding a point for 5 minutes, isn’t OP for you?

I wish I could hold a point for 1 minutes vs a Zerg with my Necro or my Engineer

Rotthen (Necro) / Zhyx (Engineer) /Inglorious Beasterd (Ranger)
Server : Anvil Rock (Since Release!) [SOLO]

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Posted by: Arani.9057

Arani.9057

I’ve hid inside for over 2 hours (Sorry SBI)… It was not overly “fun” and a little bit stressful, especially when you hear they found you, and have to actively evade for another 30 minutes without tipping off NPCs, but sure do feel like that deserved a chance to ninja the Keep for that time investment.

There are more ways to find us than there are places to hide. We have to get more creative all the time with evolving warfare.

Aradea [AoS] /\/\ESS/\/\ERR of Jade Quarry (GG SBI)
I’ll show you exactly what a Mesmer can do, SS cost extra.

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Posted by: Deified.7520

Deified.7520

I’ve personally seen the invisible staircase on walls. Seen people practicing in WvW too.
Even if in OPs case it was just a pesky mesmer hiding, it is still a problem.

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Posted by: Enenion.8127

Enenion.8127

I feel that mesmer portals are just a bit too powerful. I think they should be limited to the current AoE limit, so 5 players. This wouldn’t prevent the strategy of mesmers letting people into the keeps, but it would make it less instantaneous so defenders have a slightly larger chance to react to the threat. Letting people in in waves of 4 (mesmer + 4 others) seems a lot more fair than letting 40 people in instantaneously.

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Posted by: Raehvyn.4530

Raehvyn.4530

Yeah, letting an entire army bypass all defense just seems a little outlandish. I am all for infiltration parties, they’re fun. Used to play as a Warg in Lord of the Rings Online and rogue in World of Warcraft and countless other stealthers in a bunch of mmos. Infiltration could be cool. Being overrun because the game allows fifty people all at once leap through a portal into the keep isn’t cool. To me anyways.

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Posted by: Arani.9057

Arani.9057

have to remember the key is that the entire army already bypassed the defenses by breaking down a door/wall. We broke down the walls already. The ability to re-breach the same objectives in a different manner is imperative to the game, otherwise it would be hit the door hit the door hit the door… fail… hit the door hit the door hit the door… Mesmer gives you a chance to continue to push the objective in a second manner rather than just door knocking over and over.

Aradea [AoS] /\/\ESS/\/\ERR of Jade Quarry (GG SBI)
I’ll show you exactly what a Mesmer can do, SS cost extra.

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Posted by: Vyrance.1723

Vyrance.1723

On Stormbluff, the first thing we do every time we take a tower/keep/etc, is a mesmer sweep. We will search thoroughly until we believe the place is indeed clear. If there ended up being a mesmer that hid, then kudos to them and it’s our own fault for not finding that person. We’ve hid mesmers in others’ places, and we get hit by them too. I enjoy this part of the game

Vyrance – 80 Guardian
GAF – Gaming Age Force // Stormbluff Isle

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Posted by: Jonathan.1580

Jonathan.1580

Invader : knock knock
Defender : Who’s there?
Invader : All of us
Defender : All of us who?
Invader : All of us but our Mesmer who is about to port 30 of us to your Lord right now

Mesmer sweeps FTW or you get ^^
Mesmers are fine leavem be, fun mechanic

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Posted by: EasymodeX.4062

EasymodeX.4062

I don’t see what the big deal is, I wasted ~5mintues of a zerg’s time and they were still able to cap it.

“I don’t see what the big deal is, I just effectively tanked 50 people by myself for 5 minutes straight, whereas I would have died in 10 seconds if the GW2 engine culling worked coherently.”

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Posted by: Stiv.1820

Stiv.1820

I did this to some SoR zerg last night. They eventually all stacked up and I made a mistake and I was dead. I don’t see what the big deal is, I wasted ~5mintues of a zerg’s time and they were still able to cap it.

So one single person, holding a point for 5 minutes, isn’t OP for you?

I wish I could hold a point for 1 minutes vs a Zerg with my Necro or my Engineer

That’s how long it took them to stack and aoe :/

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Posted by: Narkosys.5173

Narkosys.5173

Nerf mesmers is all i have to say Nerf em darn good – dont you dare touch thieves!
I can see how disheartening this is tho. Put in time and dont get everyone out of the keep then have the enemy on top of you. If it wasnt an exploit and a mistake then spend extra care and time sweeping.
I have been out of WvW for a few weeks but plan to get back in. Hopefully my thief can do some damage since all i get is nerfed. – hint dev hint*

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Posted by: Raehvyn.4530

Raehvyn.4530

Invader : knock knock
Defender : Who’s there?
Invader : All of us
Defender : All of us who?
Invader : All of us but our Mesmer who is about to port 30 of us to your Lord right now

That was hilarious by the way.

No, I don’t think I am going to learn to speak Korean just for the sole purpose of asking someone to stack on the group. Who know why they don’t do it. I am not calling anyone out on it, I’m just assuming it is either a language barrier or they have one of those Cartman “I do wuh I want” attitudes. Who knows.

I suppose grudgingly I’ll accept the Mesmer mechanics, I don’t really like what it brings to the table and it is exceedingly difficult to lose a keep within seconds. How a mesmer could hide effectively in a small keep is beyond me.

The thief issue -IS- a problem, and was the first thing I mentioned in the first post. We’re not just whining on the forums (really don’t see the point of calling anything you disagree with whining). For instance, SBI had capped one of the supply camps north of Dreadfall, can’t remember the name. Arah’s I think. We sat there a good long while the majority of the party stacked but a few were off swinging wildly while a thief was around. They didn’t just “waste 5 minutes of the zerg’s time”. They held off for quite a long while and successfully and amusingly so killed a few different people. They held off long enough for a large party of Blackgate to come wipe us.

Thieves are fine. TDA on Blackgate uses this tactic a lot. The problem is as I mentioned above:

1. People don’t stack and put a quick end to the thief. This cannot be controlled by anyone and the blame goes on the players being stupid.

2. A mechanic that allows for a single character’s presence to over ride the presence of superior numbers. I don’t think this is a good mechanic, I would like to see numbers matter. But then you have issues with large roving gangs and low populated servers vs decent population servers. Just wouldn’t work.

Going back to the Mesmers, I don’t really accept the portal thing. I mean I get that the person was already in there to begin with so they did do work at one point or another. I understand and accept that. However, if there -are- ways to infiltrate a keep as a mesmer that are not legit then I’d really like to see that get fixed ASAP. People in above posts mentioned invisible stairs and other ways to get into a keep in ways not intended. While I wouldn’t want to see anyone do that I especially wouldn’t want the gate keeper of pain running amok in my keep.

I won’t speak for anyone else but myself, some people might want to smash Mesmers and Thieves into the dirt. As I plan on playing all the classes and have chars of all classes already created I don’t really feel like calling out the nerf mobile. Just fix broken stuff or what most players perceive as broken (if it makes sense to fix it, sometimes people just don’t like how stuff works regardless whether it is broken or not).

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Posted by: Raehvyn.4530

Raehvyn.4530

I did this to some SoR zerg last night. They eventually all stacked up and I made a mistake and I was dead. I don’t see what the big deal is, I wasted ~5mintues of a zerg’s time and they were still able to cap it.

So one single person, holding a point for 5 minutes, isn’t OP for you?

I wish I could hold a point for 1 minutes vs a Zerg with my Necro or my Engineer

That’s how long it took them to stack and aoe :/

That was something I did mention. The thief can do it as long as the people are idiots and the more players the more chances of there being idiots therefor personal experience says thieves can perma-stealth and prevent caps as long as they want. Stupid isn’t exactly in short supply.

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Posted by: Arani.9057

Arani.9057

Nerf mesmers is all i have to say Nerf em darn good – dont you dare touch thieves!
I can see how disheartening this is tho. Put in time and dont get everyone out of the keep then have the enemy on top of you. If it wasnt an exploit and a mistake then spend extra care and time sweeping.
I have been out of WvW for a few weeks but plan to get back in. Hopefully my thief can do some damage since all i get is nerfed. – hint dev hint*

this a legit post or humor?

Aradea [AoS] /\/\ESS/\/\ERR of Jade Quarry (GG SBI)
I’ll show you exactly what a Mesmer can do, SS cost extra.

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Posted by: Cloud.7613

Cloud.7613

20 minutes? lol I’ve seen a mesmer hide for well over 3 hours in a keep.

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Posted by: Jaghen.8314

Jaghen.8314

I think ANet should give mesmers some the thief’s stealth abilities. Would just be normal I mean, the mesmer conjures an image of a wall, defenders walk by him => perfect RP !

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Posted by: Subtle.4596

Subtle.4596

Why should you get that supply camp if you had 50 people who were being stupid?

THE ONLY way a thief can stay cloaked is via CnD. Group up, AOE ground – thief appears in 4sec… or gets gibbed by the AOE. Now keep whining and get my backstab nerfed so I can adapt to the changes and continue to roll people who don’t understand game mechanics.

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Posted by: Arani.9057

Arani.9057

we do have stealth abilities but on timers unlike thief abilities. I think max we can have is 4 if using stealth weapon. This means of course we sacrifice a lot of other things to do it. I only use 3 max when sneaking about your keeps, bu there’s been many times i really wish I had that 4th lol.

Aradea [AoS] /\/\ESS/\/\ERR of Jade Quarry (GG SBI)
I’ll show you exactly what a Mesmer can do, SS cost extra.

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Posted by: xXHexagonXx.9257

xXHexagonXx.9257

Why are you blaming Thieves for Mesmer portals? Clear the keeps of Mesmers.

Sanctum of Rall | [Choo]
Fideli Certa Merces
Ohmnom Nom Nom

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Posted by: LieutenantGoogle.7326

LieutenantGoogle.7326

I know, that mesmer portal thing is kitten annoying and it is almost impossible to break without using siege weapons, I know that the response of using siege weapon is valid but there should be more punishment for so many people stacking up into 1 exact spot.

I say mesmer portals being only able to teleport 5 people, the user and 4 others.

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Posted by: Devinchi.2756

Devinchi.2756

I don’t have much of a problem with the mesmer’s portal itself. I simply wish that every class had some kind of skill that had as much utility in WvW as the portal. For example, as an Engineer, I’d like to have either our mortar have actually useful mortar range or for our wrench skill to repair siege. I’m sure equally useful skills can be thought of for other classes as well.

Heavy Charrtillery – lvl 80 Engineer
Sorrow’s Furnace

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Posted by: Raehvyn.4530

Raehvyn.4530

Why should you get that supply camp if you had 50 people who were being stupid?

THE ONLY way a thief can stay cloaked is via CnD. Group up, AOE ground – thief appears in 4sec… or gets gibbed by the AOE. Now keep whining and get my backstab nerfed so I can adapt to the changes and continue to roll people who don’t understand game mechanics.

You either willingly chose not to read any of the responses I posted or just sort of felt the need to be overly hostile. I already said multiple times that the problem with that mechanic is not the thief but the people he is fighting. Thank you for reading before you post next time.

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Posted by: Raehvyn.4530

Raehvyn.4530

Why are you blaming Thieves for Mesmer portals? Clear the keeps of Mesmers.

Read the post again. No one is blaming thieves for mesmer portals.

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Posted by: Raehvyn.4530

Raehvyn.4530

I don’t have much of a problem with the mesmer’s portal itself. I simply wish that every class had some kind of skill that had as much utility in WvW as the portal. For example, as an Engineer, I’d like to have either our mortar have actually useful mortar range or for our wrench skill to repair siege. I’m sure equally useful skills can be thought of for other classes as well.

I brought my engineer into WvW and decided after a few hours that it wasn’t worth it. Ended up rolling an Elementalist and having more fun. Kudos on playing an Engineer in WvW, I hope you guys eventually get some love and I agree every class should have a great WvW utility skill.

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Posted by: Raehvyn.4530

Raehvyn.4530

I know, that mesmer portal thing is kitten annoying and it is almost impossible to break without using siege weapons, I know that the response of using siege weapon is valid but there should be more punishment for so many people stacking up into 1 exact spot.

I say mesmer portals being only able to teleport 5 people, the user and 4 others.

Really is just my opinion but I agree as I mentioned in above posts, I think well put together infiltration teams would be a fun addition. Entire roving warbands maybe not so much.

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Posted by: jayderyu.3751

jayderyu.3751

Commando units and infiltration are fine tactics. All the classes have their strong and weak points.

Some are great at burst damage and hide(thiefs)
Damage and sustainability(warriors)
Damage and support(Guardians)
….
Mesmers(Support and Utility) Mesmer is find DPS over long term boss fights. Terrible for quick battles of WvW. It’s not to say they aren’t useful. They are. I love my mesmer, but I’m not pounding out anywhere near the damage of a comparible Warrior, Thief….

This isn’t to say mesmers aren’t tough. i’ve seen mesmers played well in various video’s. I’m not that good, but it was done through well played utility abilities not overwhelming damage.

I agree though. The culling problem needs to be fixed. I don’t feel portable bombing is a fair tactic. However, all sides can use it equally and Anet has said they are working on a fix. The fix however is a very root engine problem and it’s going to take time. In the mean time it’s open for all sides to use.

As for thief stopping capping. I always though it was silly that 1 or few can stop capping period. I had originally thought that a superior number of players in the zone should take it. The more you have in comparison the faster it goes. So if there if it’s 4 vs 5. Well it will still move. I think it should be similar to a tug of war.

I don’t need no stinking signature.

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Posted by: Raehvyn.4530

Raehvyn.4530

I agree entirely with Jayderyu. I know Mesmers are a utility class. That A-net is apparently working on a fix for it suggests that portal was not working as intended (a source cite would be great).

However, like I said, I’d still want them to be able to infiltrate but with much smaller numbers. I think it is universally understood that they’re nothing like thieves or warriors. I’ve finally thought about it enough to be comfortable with the idea of them being allowed to port small groups of individuals and agree that it is something that I like in a way.

As for the tug of war, that is exactly what I think should happen. Squads of thieves or stealth classes could capitalize on their mechanics while not outright preventing a cap with only one individual. I think it’d balance out if more people in the cap zone quickened the pace while the presence of enemy soldiers lessened or even reversed it with sufficent numbers. Good post.