This is huge if true.
Confirmed yes! Our blog will be out shortly with more information.
You can also check out the Ready Up show tomorrow at noon pacific time to see some of the new camera stuff in action!
This is huge if true.
Confirmed yes! Our blog will be out shortly with more information.
You can also check out the Ready Up show tomorrow at noon pacific time to see some of the new camera stuff in action!
No matter what current method chosen, it is still light years away from your very comment that by level 80, players should have the best statistical loot in the game.
Yeah to be clear on that one, as we’ve said before: we made that statement before the game launched, ultimately realized we didn’t think it was the right decision for Gw2 – and changed our mind. I fully own making this statement, the day I said it was our plan – our lead designer decided it was the wrong direction for the game after we stated it, and we changed direction.
Sometimes plans will change, I can assure you it’s never our intention to intentionally mislead/trick anyone, that’s simply the nature of development: from time to time things we say at one point later have to change.
And now the post is up in the trait thread specifically to answer that point specifically. I’ll say by our definition of grind because you can purchase traits for skill points and gold which you can earn from different types of content and game modes OR play the content, this would not be considered a “grindy” system by our definition – but that doesn’t mean it’s right for Gw2’s future.
Now that the HOT is out of the bag, we’re able to update this thread with more details. With the introduction of the new account based mastery system for end-game progression and growth in PvE, we’ll also be re-evaluating our other systems of character progression to ensure they match our over-all pillars and goals for Gw2.
In doing so: we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.
Thank you for all your passionate feedback on this topic – it not only helped our dev team lead to this decision, but has played a large role in helping us define how to build our exciting new account based mastery system for end-game progression in PvE as well.
I just want to take a second to address this topic, because it’s something we state as one of our key philosophies – but don’t often clarify exactly what we mean we say it. And because everyone and their mother has their own unique interpretation of what grind can mean, it’s very simple for this to feel like we’re not following our own guidelines when we build and implement content.
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
So what exactly does that mean:
- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)
- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.
There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.
Hope that helps a bit, that’s our philosophy and definition we’re going by when we make those statements. They may not align to your definition of grind, and that’s ok – we’re fine with that! It’s just important you know what we mean when we make that statement so you can make decisions about how you view Gw2 and judge us by our actions/words.
Thanks again for being so passionate about this topic and the game which ever side of the discussion you fall on. It’s something incredibly important to modern MMO’s and gamers in general, and we truly appreciate the dialogue you all are having on topics like this. It’s what makes better games for all of us.
Does this mean that we only have until Tuesday to finish our monthly?
You will have till the end of December as normal to complete this months before the monthly system is retired.
Colin, I’m going to be a jerk about this (but I mean no ill will), and perhaps its just the English language, but it sounds like you are leaving an opening.
Saying “currently running” sounds like “not the exact system as china will come over from china, but we may implement a different one”
As we’ve said before: The royal system will not be coming to NA/EU, period.
There ya go
As we’ve said before, the royal club system currently running in China will not be coming to the NA/EU version of the game.
That was poor wording in the press release, there is no “new game mode” in the traditional sense we’d think of (new map/ new rules) being released in this update, though our competitive team continues to work on new game mode options as we speak. As with all things, they’ll give details on this when it’s far enough along we’re able to talk about it.
The reference to “mode” is talking about how players will be organized in PvP games, details later this week.
Right now we’re sort of splitting out things you can “spend” between three different places: Your inventory, your bank, and your wallet.
At its core, we need to decide on one of these to compliment your inventory and call it good. As we’re continuing to introduce more items like the geodes and bandit “hello my name is” crests, this has obviously become even more of an issue
Ultimately, we either need to let you spend materials from your bank directly at vendors so you don’t need to keep them in your inventory (and then make geodes/crests materials) OR continue to make the wallet larger and larger. Or option #3 we haven’t considered yet you might think of in this suggestion forum!
Either way, we’re aware of the need and will address it “when it’s ready™”.
We’re looking into this one, looks like it’s not working properly, thanks folks!
Lots of great concepts here already, great job folks. I’ll echo that this discussion is most helpful if we consider what the concept of guild raids in Guild Wars 2 could be, rather than attempting to limit to what “raids” in other games have been.
Think outside the box and ask yourself what other “raid” type systems don’t do well, and consider proposals that you think both make best use of what Guild Wars does well; it’s a similar process we use when evaluating any system or feature for Gw2 in general.
Look forward to reading more of your ideas!
Hears to epic company of heroes battles during crunch, basketball shoot outs, hearthstone deck tips, late night philosophy, german beer, [Ni]’s attempts to climb the Gw1 ladder, and Jon destroying your fan.
Good luck chasing your dreams Chap!
We missed you tonight! We were on for some hours. See you tomorrow night Colin!
We got a nice little EB [GAF] group going for a bit tonight, DR had no idea what hit them when we snagged their SM and threw all our stuff in the mystic forge.
Look forward to seeing the big crew tomorrow Ash!
I’ll be (staying) adopted by my fine friends at [GAF] over on SBI, see you all soon!
Colin, just clear up one thing – There is 0% chance EU/NA GW2 gets a VIP system?
We’re absolutely not bringing the China VIP system to NA/EU, correct.
Exactly how much of this was influenced from KongZhong? Because by the looks of it, the direction you are taking this game is being HEAVILY influenced by metrics from CHINA GW2….
Testing was done predominantly in the west focused on players who played guild wars 2 today, people who played gw2 at launch and left, people who heavily play other MMORPG’s, and people who heavily play RPG’s. We did all of this testing ourselves in the west, I’ll just kill right now that this is a system developed for China. It’s a system developed for the global game, period, because retaining new users at early levels wasn’t just a china problem we needed to solve, it’s a problem in the west too.
Our friends over in China did their own tests as well and saw nearly identical results to us in retention differences when testing our old systems to the new. And as I said, if we find on live all our testing was wrong, we’re not going to let it sit there, our goal is to teach and excite better at low levels to keep more players, not the other way around!
I’d also be very careful attempting to apply stereotypes to western or eastern gamers and attempting to lump them all into one pile. Just like we have a very diverse community of western gamers who play and enjoy games in different ways you’ll find in the east the same is also true.
As for content for level 80 people, I agree, we need more awesome stuff there too. However if you don’t keep people at early levels, you don’t have level 80 players to ship content to, and our development team was asked to fix the very clear issue of early player retention. Anyway as for level 80 this is a post about new player experience specifically, not level 80 stuff. There is a great CDI going on right now about guilds in (and more coming soon) where you can help give feedback on what you’d like to see the level 80 guild experience be in particular!
Wanted to pop by and give another update on where we stand, as well as to help provide some information on some of the more common misconceptions we’ve seen floating around as well:
- There are bugs! We’ve seen the content direction system (the little arrow) pointing people at super high level maps when it shouldn’t, some systems/features not unlocking as intended for all characters on your account once your first learns them, some systems level gated that aren’t intended to be, balance issues where certain levels appear to be very out of whack, etc. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, our team is working to figure out what happened here and fix these as quickly as possible.
- There is misinformation: Numerous systems that show up in the level up guide that teaches you about things in the game when you gain levels are not locked out, the system simply tells you they exist in the game to help give you a better list of things you can do. Just because it’s included in the level up guide, doesn’t mean it’s actually locked out. You can dodge from level one, jumping puzzle from level one, etc. There also appear to be a lot of folks chiming in who haven’t actually played with any of the system, and are making claims that aren’t remotely true.
- There are some things happening at the wrong levels. Things like utility skills and elites are intended to come at approx. the same time they used to in actual game time, we sped up leveling for levels 1-15 and had them slide back in levels a bit to offset that pacing, they are not currently where we want them to be in the level up system. This was an oversight, and will absolutely be fixed.
- Not all of these changes were made as ways to teach the game, some of them are to provide a better sense of pacing, reward and progression. Early on we want to give a sense that you’re rapidly gaining new abilities, rewards, and learning new things as you level up. We added the level up reward messages, and the actual rewards themselves, and took abilities you’d usually use around that point in total game hours and presented them as unlocks (or things we teach that are already unlocked) to help give a better sense of pacing and progression.
With the addition of the new rewards, messaging, and level up screen to make leveling more exciting: we also wanted to make sure you had that feeling of excitement more often early on in the game, and presented new learning on a more regular cadence. So we greatly sped up leveling from levels 1-15. Many of the things unlocked at later levels are earned at about the same time period you used to start using them in the old system in actual real game time, we just staggered them out across the levels since we sped up leveling to make the game feel more rewarding early on.
- In general, this system is intended to be not only better for new players, but our hope is by the time it’s all in place you’ll find via the better rewards from levels 1-80 via the level up guide, the better rewards from personal story, the faster leveling from 1-15, and the ability to toggle the content direction system to help you with map complete will make this a better for experienced players as well.
- Over a years worth of testing with new players found we were absolutely able to keep them both more engaged, and more likely to return to keep playing Gw2 as a result of the intended system. That is at the end of the day, a win for all of us since all of you need more people to play with! However: if we find in the live environment that isn’t true and we’re not retaining new users better, we’ll absolutely both share that information with you, and continue to iterate to make it better. We keep very real time metrics of player retention for new users, and we’ll know very quickly how effective the work we’ve done is. I want to make it clear: what we used to have absolutely wasn’t good enough for our standards of retaining new users. Before we do some of the other things we want to do with Gw2, we had to fix this, period.
- Finally, I want to add that a few things (hello traits!) are things that can be improved for players who make multiple alts, we’re aware of this, and though company policy prevents us from discussing what’s in development: I can say we know Gw2 can be an even better game for people who love making alts in the long run, more info: when it’s ready™.
I just want to quickly add, there are some errors on this chart of how stuff is unlocking, as well as 1st character vs. account unlocks when some of these systems were carried between regions. We’re trying to identify what happened and repair those things assigned the wrong account/character fields, as well as levels.
Correct me if I’m wrong… But people are saying that you can’t dodge with low level characters anymore. Is this ACTUALLY true?
This is incorrect, you should be able to absolutely dodge at any level. There is a lot of misinformation (and some bugs) going around about systems the game teaches you about, but are totally available from level 1 if you want to go do them. The level many of the things the new level up system tells you about doesn’t mean they are unlocked at that level, it simply exists as a reminder if you haven’t learned it by then. Feel free to dodge away! You can also go do jumping puzzles any time you want for example, the game just gives you a heads up they exist at level 21 if you haven’t found one by then, etc.
We’re also seeing a lot of bugs, and unintended functionality folks are reporting in a number of the threads on the new player experience that don’t align with what we announced the system to be. We’re working on identifying and resolving all of these issues as quickly as possible, some of the absolutely legitimate concerns folks are bringing up (like some of the bigger issues with alts) are not intended and appear to have been flagged incorrectly when they moved between development regions. Fixes incoming soon as we can identify everything.
Please continue to give feedback and suggestions, we very much appreciate it as it’s allowed us to identify a lot of not intended issues, as well as bugs.
Very much appreciate the feedback, suggestions and ideas from those who are staying on topic. I’ll continue to monitor this thread and discuss options and your feedback with the community team.
Keep it up!
Too many times have these ‘CDIs’ or developer discussion threads turned into us talking to a brick wall. In fact, the majority of the people who would probably have incredible input to give you have either been banned from the forums or simply don’t bother anymore. If you want us to put the effort in and engage in the sorts of discussions you’re proposing, you need to show us you can acknowledge public sentiment and comment on it, even if you don’t bend to it.
Thanks fadeaway, I want to be clear this isn’t a discussion initiative. As stated back in my first post, the concept here is to simply provide more visibility by providing a list of top tier game areas we’re aware of or concerned about so it’s visible to players.
CDI is intended to be a discussion initiative, if you have feedback on that or how it (or other discussion initiatives) work please make sure to put those in the CDI thread. If your feedback is something like what I’ve proposed isn’t useful and you’d prefer more discussion initiatives, that’d be totally valid in this thread as well.
You know Colin there is such a thing as giving people hope, without giving any specifics or dates or talk of new continents, that thing is called a pic.
You devs used to do this very thing a lot before launch. Artist like Daniel Dociu for example who has been missing in action since March 11th 2011.
Simply post future in game pics from time to time and let the player base speculate on it. It can even be a painting that has been included in the future development of the game which would give us only a vague look into the future. Don’t do it so much for me but for the rest of the player base since the silence treatment has already killed the game for me. The last L.S chapter I did Divinity’s Reach and didn’t bother finishing the rest. Since then all I do is only daily then I log out. I got all professions at 80 and all fully mapped but now the motivation to stay online is all but gone. Even for me pics would give me something to look forward to besides the usual rumor of a 2015 expansion which I simply do not believe in anymore.
Best regards an ex full time player and supporter who’s already contributed to more than 10 expansions which we have yet to hear about. I don’t regret my gems contribution they added to my enjoyment, but it’s all water under the bridge.
Make no mistake about this silence can also kill a game it has for me.
Just wanted to take a moment and say thank you for supporting Guild Wars for so long. Hopefully someday we’ll be able to tell you about things that re-ignite that excitement for you! Pictures say a thousand words, certainly an interesting idea indeed.
Hey folks just to be clear, this isn’t a thread where you list all the stuff you’d like to see in the game (we have plenty of those!)
This is a thread to discuss the idea of adding a sticky to the top of each of the big forum threads (PvP, dungeons, WvW, General discussions, etc.) where we help provide a very high level list of stuff the Gw2 Dev team is aware of with the game, and what questions/thoughts we’re giving those areas to help guide your discussions – and provide visibility into the very top tier stuff we’re aware of.
Feedback on just the idea itself as a concept please, thank you!
Kool I appreciate it but will we be seeing these types of threads turned into stickies on essential topics like?:
#Condition damage stacking issues in open world
#Rewards system revamp and the removal of systems like DR/RNG
#Diversity in PVE (which includes weapon choices, locations/types of traits)
I think that’d certainly be one potential option, this thread is brainstorm exactly those kind of ideas if we do indeed think this concept would be useful.
What do you mean exactly with “summarized the key discussion points around that area we’re aware of as a dev team”?
Also, you should use the Question/Answer thread thingie, so the dev post can be seen on all pages of the thread.
So by key discussion points, I gave an example for PvP of something folks know we’re aware of above, but helped provide some more specifics for discussion. The PvP one is more detailed than maybe we could go on all topics, but helps give an idea. Other examples of things we’d provide summaries of things we’re aware of, and help provide some more details for discussion could be things like:
- Challenging content to overcome with groups.
- Character development pre and post level 80.
- Reasons to play dynamic events in the open world.
- Population imbalance and keeping match ups fun in WvW.
- Rewards for content vs. earning gold the fastest way to earn rewards.
- Why do I login every day?
Good call on Q&A, done, thank you
I’ll separate out the idea now into a practical application of what this could look like for one existing thread:
Structured PvP Forum Thread
Key Discussion Point: New Game Mode for PvP
High Level Focus Points:
- What kind of game mode(s) would be best in PvP for Gw2 on top of the current conquest game mode type given the games fast past action combat style?
- How should players be able to decide which game mode, or even which map within a game mode to play each round? Can a solution to this also solve issues with bias towards certain existing conquest maps?
- What key moments can a strong game mode have to help make it feel strategic and exciting when a key moment occurs? Can they happen every frequently enough to make each match exciting, and help provide comeback mechanics? Can these key moments provide teams multiple options to ensure different strategies for playing that can stand out and be identified?
- Can viewers clearly see and understand key moments when watching a stream and feel they are exciting without needing to understand the nuance of the combat occurring?
- Matches should be short, compelling, and easy to jump in and out of to keep the game approachable – but have layers of depth and strategy that experienced players can master.
- Demo versions of some potential new PvP game modes were given on an episode of Ready Up. [link goes here]
Edited or better formatting!
I’ve been brainstorming since getting home last night and discussed a bit with Chris this morning I wanted to throw out an idea on communication we could try that might help a bit ->
What if every major thread offered a dev sticky at the top that summarized the key discussion points around that area we’re aware of as a dev team? We’d track the last major update(s) to those areas that shipped live in the sticky thread, and each time a new update is made update that thread accordingly.
Some ground rules we’d have to follow:
Please keep discussion points around the policies of communication over in Mo’s “communicating with you” thread. This thread is purely for discussing the concept of these key topic point stickies.
We don’t want you to “stay within company policies” – we want you to change the policy and communicate the direction you’re going in more.
Yup as I said, I’ll pass that feedback up the chain!
I’ll start a separate thread shortly to discussion one of the potential ideas for how we could help provide at least a bit more of a clear picture similar to CDI to help guide and discuss topics while staying within the company policies on communication development.
I’ll also make sure your feedback is passed up the chain from those who gave feedback on that specific policy.
May I ask, “not allowed” by whom? You guys are the developers. Who do you need permission from?
Sorry that should say: “Our company policy is not to talk about what’s in development”.
maby you should than not make a blogpost with things you will give us this year BUT
a blogpost with things you work on
i guess people would be happy to read things like: we work on housing but far from release, we have 3 dungeons in beta status, we had to restart work on precursor crafting and its back to alpha status ………
something like this
That would also break the company policy of what we’re allowed to discuss in regards of what is in development
Though I wonder if we went a little more broad and kept a rolling “top categorical issues” the community team communicated or owned that summarizing high level things the development team is aware of and might or might not be working on, but see’s as core fundamental issues to address, and players just had constant brainstorm threads on those topics – if it’d at least get us halfway there.
Maybe one of the CDIs could be more of what ANet thinks is important and we sit and listen for a change? I can’t remember if this was done in the past, but personally it would help discussions in the future.
I think that’d be an interesting discussion, you’ll probably be surprised to find the “big” lists aren’t that different, it’s just that since we can’t share the projects we’re working on to solve them – it’s not clear we’re actually working on, or even aware of or worried about the issue. Worse, when people see work being done in other areas shipping rather than what seems like a core area, they assume no work is being done and no one is even aware of the other issue.
At its core, I think that’s a lot of the problem communication wise – it’s a tough nut to crack when we’re also not allowed to discuss what’s in development, but I’m sure we can find a better balance than we have currently and your suggestion at its core could be a good way to help find that balance.
Maybe the community team could keep a rolling “top over-all concerns” for core development areas of the game from the dev teams perspective? We wouldn’t be allowed to go into specifics per our rules about not discussing what’s in development, but certainly categorical summaries could help?
The simple answer is: unless it’s nearing completion, we cannot talk about it. You can read Mo’s post titled “communicating with you” which covers in detail how we’ve been asked to message as of about a year ago in relation to what is in development.
What we can talk about is what we think tough problems are for the game to solve, what questions we think about regularly development wise about the game, or amazing ideas for what aspects of Gw2 can be – CDI’s are a great place for that discussion in particular. But we can’t answer what exactly we’re working on, what we might work on next, or what progress we’re making on stuff we are working on.
The reality is things like these sort of lists of “what is the team doing” like my old state of the game blogs created expectations. When plans, or implementation details changed, or we threw out whole systems because they weren’t good enough – I left the team looking bad for making them break those expectations. I’ve been asked to no longer do those blogs and instead focus on only doing the type of announcements we’ve done this year of stuff that is guaranteed to ship in a reasonable time-frame after we announce it. Things like the living world journal, structure of content for season two of living world, feature packs one, feature pack two, etc.
For everything you’re not hearing about…I can only say don’t assume that means we’re not working on it, most of us who build the game all day play the game constantly all night, and are just regular Gw2 players like a lot of you. We’re looking for a lot of the same things out of the game that you are, and we read the feedback from the community constantly. Heck I just flew in from being out of town for a couple weeks and I’m reading your thread at 10:30pm on a saturday, there ya go real proof!
Now that China has launched we’ve freed up a lot of development resources back to get to those things. We also have a lot of people at ArenaNet and you’ve only seen what some them are working on this last year or two. Since we can’t share a road map of what they’re doing per our company policy, all I can answer is I hope when we’re able to show you what all we’ve been doing in total someday in the future – you’re as excited as we are about it.
Great idea, I’d love this too, as would my poor extra finishers I never remember to use.
Thank YOU for helping make the tournaments of legends!
Just want to quickly add for those who missed it, we’ll be covering the answers to the bulk of the questions in this thread in the blogs over the next two days after today.
We’ll also continue to monitor and adapt the megaserver system once it’s fully enabled to ensure it provides the best experience possible, so once you’ve seen it in action please make sure to leave comments, feedback, and suggestions as always!
To maximize your odds of running into other RP players more often, you’ll want to make sure you’re on the same world (generally TC and Piken are viewed as the RP worlds), and in guilds with other RP members also on that same world. For example, everyone from TC currently will be set to high priority to sort together, same thing goes with people who are all a part of the same guild (so guild up RP folks!)
We’ll continue to monitor, adapt and update the system as we go forward as well, for now I’d suggest seeing how it works once we enable the mega server system across all maps and then giving comments and feedback when you see it in action!
(edited to add Piken!)
(edited by ColinJohanson.2394)
Great post! Though we did a CDI to discuss Living World and covered many of these topics and concerns in there as well, I think it’s always good to stop and brainstorm and give feedback on how to improve the living world experience. A lot of very valid points in there, and things we generally agree with as well in retrospect on season 1.
Constructive criticism with great feedback and suggestions is exactly what these forums exist for, +1 to you OP!
We’ll go into more detail soon, just to re-iterate so it’s clear:
“The next round of major features will be bundled together into a large “feature only” release that will come after the first season of the Living World 2014 has finished.”
A feature release is not an expansion, it’s a release focused on game features. Examples of game features we’ve done in the past would be: guild missions, account achievement system, spectator mode, new pvp maps, daily world boss chests, removing culling and giving visibility options, the WvW WxP system, etc.
Colin im going to let you in on a secret that is worth tens of thousands of dollars, but since I like you ill give it to you for free.
Put in capes and the people will come. Especially good trimmed capes for the upper tiers.
Everyone will be jelly and want to know how to get one and if you can only get them through pvp people will come. So they would be good rewards.
I love me some capes, agreed!
Not sure if this is the right thread to say it, but the major problem of why i don’t like pvp is because isn’t a complete deathmatch. It’s a team effort to capture things instead of a war to kill the other team before yours die. I’d love an Arena of 1vs1 deathmatch or something like that, with no teams.
Technically it isn’t no, this is a thread to discuss leagues and ways to accomplish successful leagues. Pop back and read the directions on CDI threads and it’ll help you understand how to use this format. Since you asked nicely, I’ll help you get started on how you could phrase it in a way that’d be ok for this discussion →
- I’d really love to participate in a PvP league, but I simply wouldn’t do so unless it was a death match based league. If it was a death match based league, I’d love to see the league function like this: <your ideas go here using the format on page 1>
How is it that you don’t (or refuse to) understand that good, quality, and well-made pvp will attract players in and off itself, and that rewards should really just be that final cherry on top (unless we’re talking millions of $$$, I guess, but that would still not make a pvp ‘good’), or at least better thought out (prestige/fame bring SO much more to the table than gold/money, although the former shouldn’t preclude the latter, and they are also not mutually exclusive in any kind of manner).
While I agree we still have a lot of work to continue to improve the PvP experience as well, this is a thread dedicated entirely to talking about leagues and how they would function, and my entire post was focused on the discussion of rewards within those leagues.
As for competitive and casual and my definitions, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one! Regardless, I think the more important discussion and the entire point of this thread is: What players do we have who play PvP and how do we make leagues that motivate them, and what players do we have who don’t currently play PvP who would: and how do we motivate them.
While I understand your point and think discussions around game modes and types that can succeed is a great topic for us to continue to discuss, since we’ve done so once already, I’d encourage you to remember the goal of this CDI discussion. Remember, this is your chance to discuss leagues (and in particular, my question was rewards for those leagues) not everything else you have concerns with.
I will add a fun fact: When rewards were updated in December, PvP saw a 40% growth in player numbers that has stayed solid ever since, the largest single jump in player participation in any game content type as a result of an update we’ve ever seen. This growth was almost entirely players who didn’t play PvP before, who suddenly became interested once it was rewarding, and I’d argue it’s not even that rewarding yet. To discount rewards as meaningless might be true to you as a player, but we consistently hear very different feedback from other players, and they make this very clear in their actions. We need to make sure players who truly care about prestige and being the best are catered to, and we need a way for players who aren’t that yet can become excited and invested and someday potentially become part of the first.
I’d encourage you (in this thread) to focus your brainstorming and ideas around how we can make leagues that you’d be excited to play in, since that’s the entire point of this discussion! If prestige/fame is what motivates you for example, tell us what kind of prestige and fame systems you’d like to see in a league?
Sorry, there is no such thing as a competitive casual player. There is just a casual player who plays to win, and a casual player who plays for fun/to kill time.
Moreover, ‘competitive’ usually implies you also have a regular team you play with, because you cannot really be competitive with 4 deadweights on your team…unless you’re up vs an opponent team of simlar skill level (read pve/beginners).
I think you’re using a different definition of competitive, and casual/hardcore than I would, so by your definition I agree with you, but using my own definitions I do not
We tend to think of our players in various categories, and one of the goals of any league system (or PvP in general) is to try and engage as many of those players as possible, because today’s casual player can be tomorrow’s top tourny player – if they reach the top.
My definitions, and why I think you need to think of rewards that motivate each of these groups to help encourage their participation, since they are often motivated by different things are:
Competitive Hardcore (the guy I set next to at work) – Want to win, and want to be the best. They fight for the top of the ladder, want to win tournaments, and be the best in the world.
Competitive Casual (Me) – Wants to win, don’t care bout being the best in the world and will never have time to do so, won’t ever be on top of the ladder. However, I want to be the best among players of my similar levels of interest/time, so any league that allows me to compete with people of similar skill sets/interest is one I’d participate in. If I have to also fight against the competitive hardcore, I likely wouldn’t participate. Has the potential to someday become competitive hardcore.
Casual (the gal who sits behind me at work) – Wants to play to unlock rewards, doesn’t really think they have a chance of winning or being very good and openly recognize it. Will play as long as the rewards exist, for example there are people who play PvP each day and get their daily, then run off to their next goal some place else in the game. Has the potential to someday become competitive casual.
And ideal league structure would provide motivation for people in each of these groups (by my definition of what they are) to maximize the player participation, and increase the odds that players in each category might move to a more dedicated category of player at some point.
Hope that helps explain in a bit more detail what I’m saying when I say competitive casual, and also what groups I think need to be included in a league structure – and why they may need different rewards based on their different motivations.
But on to the point of explorable modes not being heavily story driven. Why does the new aetherpath in Twilight Arbor still have unskippable cutscenes and needlessly long dialogues? This is a major reason a lot of players avoid the path.
This is a perfect example of why heavily driving a lot of lore and story into something that is intended to be a group re-playable experience isn’t a great idea, and something typically we try and avoid. Thus the challenge here, to get across these cool stories, without the cost of the pacing of the fractal experience!
How about Story Mode fractals, where you could pick a fractal you want to experience. Then upon arriving to said fractal we could experience the story behind thus level hence learning more about the history and idea behind the design of each and every fractal. To make it actually rewarding we could have a achievement system in place for each level, so everyone would play it at least once. And maybe a reward at the end (30s should be sufficient as it would be much shorter than a regular dungeon story mode) and some experience. It would also help new players get a hang of fractals a bit more understanding the layout and mechanics behind every level.
We could do something like this, but when ends up happening is the work involved ends up being a lot of additional work to basically build something people play one or two times and then are done with it. In that time, we could have probably half built another real fractal, which I think probably would be better for the game over-all. Maybe the real question would be → How do we try and get across better lore and stories with the current fractal system?
Using fractals to tell story:
Fractals should be used to tell as more about the lore/history of Tyria.
Goal of Proposal
Increase the amount of lore used for the fractals and creating new fractals which story and background informations. This is such a good oppertunity to tell us about things that happende before GW2, things that could happen in the future, things of an alternate version of Tyria.
So an interesting challenge we always face when trying to make any type of dungeon content more lore heavy, is they are by their very nature highly repeatable content. Historically our design philosophy around group content that falls into that category is to try and provide enough context for the experience to make sense, but not heavily attempt to tell deep story in these instances.
While the core concept of using fractals to continue to show great moments in the history of Tyria is indeed totally in line with our own thinking as well, the struggle we always face is how much of that story we can really put there. Once you play it once or twice, you really just want to actually play the content and not wait around for all the story moments, scenes, cinematics, etc. This can lead to a problem we used to run into in Gw1 where some people in the party really wanted to see the story, and others had played it before and wanted them to hurry the heck up.
Our work around for this for Thaumanova for example was to provide a story version of it that was around during the living world release with far deeper exposition, and the current fractal version today that tries to focus on the game play. Similarly, story dungeons are really intended to be played a handful of times to get the story, and explorable mode dungeons are very story light since they are intended to be re-playable based on the core content.
What kind of fun ideas can you come up with to help allow us to get more story into the fractal experiences, without the cost of slowing down the core re-playability of the game play that is at the heart of the fractal content?
So an open question to add to the brainstorm, when considering leagues rewards is always going to be an important component to driving participation. There is some great ideas in this thread on rewards already, but it’s worth delving deeper into what type of rewards will motivate different types of players in the league structure. Top tier players might be motivated only by $$$ for example, while lower tier players may be driven primarily to earn levels/gold. (These are just random examples)
With that in mind, what rewards would you like to see for a pvp league structure based on player categories who would be motivated by those rewards at different tiers?
I’ll give myself as an example: I consider myself competitive casual. I will never join a top PvP team to compete in tournaments to be the best in the world, I will however play in any solo play league or rated solo play if the rewards are compelling enough. I generally play hot join and custom arenas as my core game mode type.
For me, unique skins for my character that I can only earn from participating in a league structure would be the biggest motivating factor. This would allow me to show off to others that I was there, and also feel like I earned something unique and exciting for my time spent. Similarly, any rewards that help speed my progress towards building a legendary would provide a large amount of motivation for me. And gems would always be nice, can I always seem to be finding more on the gem store I want to buy than my wife will be ok wit
(edited by ColinJohanson.2394)
Sandwichmancer of course.
And it’s super OP right now.
- Adding new content to the existing maps (or re-using existing moments) that serves the purpose of being a bit like skill challenges, content on demand that allows you to overcome challenges to allow you unlock various abilities/masteries.
A bit like skill challenges, but while skill challenges are just “boss” fights, it would be cool if this kind of content generated entire chains of events with some more gameplay diversity and an interesting scenario behind them.
A lot of the ideas boiled down into variations of one of these two options, and really both have a lot of cool concepts and ideas. Can folks think of anything else that’s a bit more outside the box for something bigger?
Remember GW1’s Hall of Monuments, where the winning team got a game-wide chat message announcing their victory? Using that as an inspiration, but thinking of something completely different (without involving pvp), what about some content being unlocked at the end of epic dynamic events, and rewarding access to unique content?
But hey, this already happens with some mini-dungeons, don’t they? Maybe this concept could be expanded upon.
CONCEPT FOR OPEN-WORLD MINI-SCENARIOS
The teams that would complete specific and long challenging dynamic event chains would unlock access to unique mini-dungeons, with some interesting stories, scenarios and challenges behind them, all leading to a mini-story conclusion and a flavored reward to those players. The reward could be anything, including a new subclass tier, or mastery, or something.
Unlocking an open-world mini-dungeon would be map-wide, a message would automatically be generated in the chat warning players about it, and everyone could join and get the “normal reward”, but only the teams that have participated in the specific events that lead to them (and have met a specific condition) would be allowed to get the unique “mastery” reward, and a ray of light would shine upon them for all other players to see. Another message would automatically be generated in the map, this time announcing the players who have advanced through a mastery, and all other players in the map would be like “wow, how did you get your name in the chat? What did you do to get that mastery? I want to get it too!”
The dynamic events leading to those unique open-world scenarios (let’s call it that) would work as discussed: they would either start automatically from time to time, or start on demand if the player has met a specific condition. However, even though they could be started on demand, they wouldn’t be easy, with a high chance of failure for the unprepared, making them more special.
And finally, for a player to meet the specific condition to start those events on demand (and thus to get the “unique” reward from the end of the mini-scenario later unlocked) could be received from the also-discussed Orders quest system, or something.
There you have it, I proposed a new idea (mini-dungeons/ scenarios unlocked from events) and fused this concept with the two other ideas the community has been discussing (unique on-demand events and orders quests).
Very cool, something we’ve discussed a lot internally as well in regards to some of our concepts of what future maps would look like
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